Notting hill carnival

[Gordon R]

Quote

 it's almost like it's a highly complex subject with multiple reasons that if were understood better and tackled could help reduce offending

Why do you need to understand why these morons carry knives? Knife carrying is cowardly, abhorrent and illegal. 

Is there a pressing need to better understand rapists, murderers or bank robbers? If not, why not?

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Penelope said:

The choice to involve themselves in black street culture; it's cool to be a 'Road Man'!

Pretty much this.
Alpha male role culture is just a thing with POC, its become part of their identity.
 

 

45 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

interesting theories guys, it's almost like it's a highly complex subject with multiple reasons that if were understood better and tackled could help reduce offending

And theres your problem, we cant tackle it without upsetting the liberal mindset, and someone shouting RACIST !
So we just do nothing and say its a complex problem/blame the tories or the 'far' right....
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/02/notting-hill-carnival-deaths

[Raja Clavata]

41 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Love the pro-ID cards. Knew you would be -  with the EU leading the way.

12 Gauge silent - he less so? Definite police state stuff.  

To be transparent, I haven’t read your inline replies.

I do not believe my position on ID cards is in any way swayed by the EU.

For the life of me I genuinely can’t understand why anyone truly concerned about illegal immigration in the UK would be fundamentally opposed to ID cards.

Again, you were recently banging on about how awesome the Poles are, last time I checked they were in the EU and have ID cards. Selectively taking the bits you like again?

This culture of blaming others, normally the left, for everything but not being prepared to take a personal hit to address some of said grievances astounds me. But that’s Little Englander mindset for you.

[12gauge82]

38 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Why do you need to understand why these morons carry knives? Knife carrying is cowardly, abhorrent and illegal. 

IT IS COWARDLY, ABHORRENT AND ILLEGAL, BUT IF WE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE DO IT, YOU WILL MISS OPPORTUNITIES TO STOP IT HAPPENING IN THE FIRST PLACE, IT'S PRETTY FUNDAMENTAL STUFF I WOULD THINK. 

Is there a pressing need to better understand rapists, murderers or bank robbers? If not, why not?

YES THERE IS, BUT I'D SAY LESS SO AS THE CRIMES AROUND MUCH OF THAT OFFENDING HAS BEEN AROUND FAR LONGER IN MOST CASES AND IS THEREFORE ALREADY BETTER UNDERSTOOD. ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION THOUGH. 

 

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

For the life of me I genuinely can’t understand why anyone truly concerned about illegal immigration in the UK would be fundamentally opposed to ID cards.

I dont think its the fact of issuing ID cards, or having to carry them.
Its the fundamental change in the law where you would be required to show it to an official.

Im working with a Polish guy at the moment, and hes shocked that, like in many EU countries where you HAVE to identify yourself if ordered, we dont in the UK, unless driving or arrested.
This 'human right' is I believe, cherished by the population at large, they simply cant get their head around the 'Show me your papers !' mentality.
I also dont think it would have much effect on illegal immigration, but thats just me.

20 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

This culture of blaming others, normally the left, for everything but not being prepared to take a personal hit to address some of said grievances astounds me. But that’s Little Englander mindset for you.

That works both ways, we CAN blame the left for the softly softly approach on crime and immigration.
And being a little Englander bothers me not, we are just a shrinking minority, regularly call racist for daring to even mention that there is in fact, a problem.

 

5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

BUT IF WE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE DO IT, YOU WILL MISS OPPORTUNITIES TO STOP IT HAPPENING IN THE FIRST PLACE

I could be tempted to say , why dont you ask them ?
But I wouldnt want to put you in danger 

In many ways THEY have created the environment that requires the carrying and use of bladed weapons for defence and offence.
The blade doesnt do anything on its own, its the will behind the hand that wields it, and if that hand belongs to someone who believes he is king of the concrete jungle.....

[Mungler]

33 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

To be transparent, I haven’t read your inline replies.

I do not believe my position on ID cards is in any way swayed by the EU.

For the life of me I genuinely can’t understand why anyone truly concerned about illegal immigration in the UK would be fundamentally opposed to ID cards.

Again, you were recently banging on about how awesome the Poles are, last time I checked they were in the EU and have ID cards. Selectively taking the bits you like again?

This culture of blaming others, normally the left, for everything but not being prepared to take a personal hit to address some of said grievances astounds me. But that’s Little Englander mindset for you.

Pot meet kettle moment - your reply is based on assumption and your own prejudices. If you read my reply you would appreciate that you have the wrong end of the stick, entirely. Well funny though.

[Mungler]

And here is the bulk of the 2018 Telegraph Article about what Trevor Phillips said.

Let’s all take a moment to read it eh?

And what’s changed since 2018? Nothing, apart from the increase in knife crime / fatalities.

But what would Trevor Phillips know in the face of the enlightened hand wringers on here who have no solutions, just more ‘complex and cultural’ issues for everyone to consider 😀

 

 

Police officers should be exempt from race discrimination laws in order to target black youths in high crime areas, the  former chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) has said. 

Trevor Phillips said that "white liberals" need to stop "hand-wringing" and admit the truth that the wave of knife crime is black children killing black children. 

He called for officers to target high-risk inner-city areas and to be exempt from laws which prevent them discriminating on the basis of someone's race or ethnic origin.

Police dealing with gangs also need to be given greater powers akin to anti-terror laws which would allow them to detain the leaders who give the orders rather than wielding the knife, Mr Phillips said. 

The comments come amid a rising wave of violence which has seen 250 stabbing deaths in the UK this year, with five of those murders occurring in London in the past nine days. 

Describing the dead as "sacrifices in an unwinnable war", Mr Phillips said that the political response had been "pathetic" and too focused on police numbers when there is no evidence that this will help. 

Writing in the Mail on Sunday, he said: "First we need to be clear about who is dying and who is doing the killing, and we must be honest that there is a racial component to the violence."

 

The deaths are taking place in the semi-ghettos of Britain's big cities which are home to refugees many of whom are traumatised by the warfare that they have escaped and feel a sense of belonging by joining gangs, he said.

Adding: "So the forlorn attempts by politicians and media to ignore this truth - to avoid 'stigmatising' minority communities - has been counterproductive, a hand-wringing dereliction of responsibility.

"It might make 'right-on' white liberals feel better. But the price of their smugness is an ongoing bloody massacre of black children with a casualty list that seems to lengthen by the day."

The son of poor immigrant parents, he said that whilst violence is nothing new the knuckle dusters and bricks he encountered in his youth in north London have been replaced by  a "a lethal armoury of knives, swords, handguns and, occasionally, automatic rifles - some in the hands of children as young as ten". 

He called for high risk zones to be identified and flooded with officers "using stop-and-search powers as freely as they wish". 

Stop-and-search powers have long attracted controversy amid claims that they are used to unfairly target black men. 

The intervention comes after Cressida ****,  the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, used an interview with the Telegraph to call for the police to be able to use high tech surveillance methods such as facial recognition technology to crack down on crime. 

 

Mr Philips backed her call, saying that if it helps then "fretting about privacy from people whose families are in no danger should be ignored".

He added: "In areas where the gangs are primarily black or from another ethnic group, police might even be permitted to apply for exemption from race discrimination laws for a limited period. This could free their hands to act against specific targets - and few would be more pleased than minority parents who constantly worry that their children may never come home."

In order to ensure that this was done fairly all officers should be be fitted with a bodyworn camera, he argued. 

He also called for further powers to be extended to prison governors, to prevent gangs consolidating their control over behind bars. 

The former boss of the ECHR said that rather than spending time and money on "pointless" campaigns about social media hate crimes and instead focus resources on helping those trapped inside the cycle of violence. 

He  suggested at risk families should be relocated and bright young children at danger of joining gangs should be sent to boarding schools. 

He also suggested offering incentives such as a council tax "holiday" to families who would move into at risk areas to change the social make-up and disrupt gangs. 

Edited September 4 by Mungler

[12gauge82]

18 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I dont think its the fact of issuing ID cards, or having to carry them.
Its the fundamental change in the law where you would be required to show it to an official.

Im working with a Polish guy at the moment, and hes shocked that, like in many EU countries where you HAVE to identify yourself if ordered, we dont in the UK, unless driving or arrested.
This 'human right' is I believe, cherished by the population at large, they simply cant get their head around the 'Show me your papers !' mentality.
I also dont think it would have much effect on illegal immigration, but thats just me.

 

So your against ID cards in the above principles, but want stop and search powers with no grounds. I find that a bit of contradiction 🤔

[Yellow Bear]

14 pages in and no alternative ideas from the naysayers to s&s apart from trying to understand the reasons.

Trying to understand the reasons has been ongoing for at least 6 years to no effect so what is the alternative.

Being realistic I will not hold my breath.

[Westley]

5 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Don't quote me but I think it's a requirement to carry your FA/SG license when out shooting. 

As for not showing ID, for me it's about freedom and like I said earlier, power corrupts. 

 

I won't quote you, but I would point out it is NOT an offence. Your guns could be seized until you provide proof of a Shotgun Certificate. If you are close to home, not a major problem, but if your home is at the other end of the country ............. ?

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, Westley said:

I won't quote you, but I would point out it is NOT an offence. Your guns could be seized until you provide proof of a Shotgun Certificate. If you are close to home, not a major problem, but if your home is at the other end of the country ............. ?

Cheers for this, a few members have pointed this out 👍

[TIGHTCHOKE]

5 minutes ago, Westley said:

I won't quote you, but I would point out it is NOT an offence. Your guns could be seized until you provide proof of a Shotgun Certificate. If you are close to home, not a major problem, but if your home is at the other end of the country ............. ?

That is what radios and computers are for, they work out who you are and get confirmation, much the same as an NPC check of your vehicle registration plate.

[Raja Clavata]

32 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Pot meet kettle moment - your reply is based on assumption and your own prejudices. If you read my reply you would appreciate that you have the wrong end of the stick, entirely. Well funny though.

Still not enough of an incentive to get me to read your inline reply.

So, we both think the other is funny, common ground at last.

[Raja Clavata]

30 minutes ago, Mungler said:

And here is the bulk of the 2018 Telegraph Article about what Trevor Phillips said.

Let’s all take a moment to read it eh?

And what’s changed since 2018? Nothing, apart from the increase in knife crime / fatalities.

But what would Trevor Phillips know in the face of the enlightened hand wringers on here who have no solutions, just more ‘complex and cultural’ issues for everyone to consider 😀

 

 

Police officers should be exempt from race discrimination laws in order to target black youths in high crime areas, the  former chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) has said. 

Trevor Phillips said that "white liberals" need to stop "hand-wringing" and admit the truth that the wave of knife crime is black children killing black children. 

He called for officers to target high-risk inner-city areas and to be exempt from laws which prevent them discriminating on the basis of someone's race or ethnic origin.

Police dealing with gangs also need to be given greater powers akin to anti-terror laws which would allow them to detain the leaders who give the orders rather than wielding the knife, Mr Phillips said. 

The comments come amid a rising wave of violence which has seen 250 stabbing deaths in the UK this year, with five of those murders occurring in London in the past nine days. 

Describing the dead as "sacrifices in an unwinnable war", Mr Phillips said that the political response had been "pathetic" and too focused on police numbers when there is no evidence that this will help. 

Writing in the Mail on Sunday, he said: "First we need to be clear about who is dying and who is doing the killing, and we must be honest that there is a racial component to the violence."

 

The deaths are taking place in the semi-ghettos of Britain's big cities which are home to refugees many of whom are traumatised by the warfare that they have escaped and feel a sense of belonging by joining gangs, he said.

Adding: "So the forlorn attempts by politicians and media to ignore this truth - to avoid 'stigmatising' minority communities - has been counterproductive, a hand-wringing dereliction of responsibility.

"It might make 'right-on' white liberals feel better. But the price of their smugness is an ongoing bloody massacre of black children with a casualty list that seems to lengthen by the day."

The son of poor immigrant parents, he said that whilst violence is nothing new the knuckle dusters and bricks he encountered in his youth in north London have been replaced by  a "a lethal armoury of knives, swords, handguns and, occasionally, automatic rifles - some in the hands of children as young as ten". 

He called for high risk zones to be identified and flooded with officers "using stop-and-search powers as freely as they wish". 

Stop-and-search powers have long attracted controversy amid claims that they are used to unfairly target black men. 

The intervention comes after Cressida ****,  the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, used an interview with the Telegraph to call for the police to be able to use high tech surveillance methods such as facial recognition technology to crack down on crime. 

 

Mr Philips backed her call, saying that if it helps then "fretting about privacy from people whose families are in no danger should be ignored".

He added: "In areas where the gangs are primarily black or from another ethnic group, police might even be permitted to apply for exemption from race discrimination laws for a limited period. This could free their hands to act against specific targets - and few would be more pleased than minority parents who constantly worry that their children may never come home."

In order to ensure that this was done fairly all officers should be be fitted with a bodyworn camera, he argued. 

He also called for further powers to be extended to prison governors, to prevent gangs consolidating their control over behind bars. 

The former boss of the ECHR said that rather than spending time and money on "pointless" campaigns about social media hate crimes and instead focus resources on helping those trapped inside the cycle of violence. 

He  suggested at risk families should be relocated and bright young children at danger of joining gangs should be sent to boarding schools. 

He also suggested offering incentives such as a council tax "holiday" to families who would move into at risk areas to change the social make-up and disrupt gangs. 

So he’s not purely advocating S&S either then but in fact something much more holistic.

Not sure I agree on the notion that the kids affected are from refugee/immigrant families (I guess it depends how far back you go though).

Good luck on the council tax holiday incentive idea.

[Rewulf]

17 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

So your against ID cards in the above principles, but want stop and search powers with no grounds. I find that a bit of contradiction 🤔

For about the 5th time, the police already have such powers, sec 50 , sec 60 and SVROs give them stop and search powers, with or without grounds, as Ive said, all it takes is reasonable suspicion that you have done something unlawful, about to do something unlawful, or carrying something unlawful, they dont have to prove their grounds, and the latter 2 they dont even need that.

Check this out for the recent changes to police powers https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/advice_information/stop-and-search/

Carrying ID is something most of us do already, Im not against ID cards in principle, Im against the change in the law necessary to MAKE you show them.

[12gauge82]

14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

For about the 5th time, the police already have such powers, sec 50 , sec 60 and SVROs give them stop and search powers, with or without grounds, as Ive said, all it takes is reasonable suspicion that you have done something unlawful, about to do something unlawful, or carrying something unlawful, they dont have to prove their grounds, and the latter 2 they dont even need that.

Check this out for the recent changes to police powers https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/advice_information/stop-and-search/

Carrying ID is something most of us do already, Im not against ID cards in principle, Im against the change in the law necessary to MAKE you show them.

Sec 60 ect would only happen in exceptional circumstances. Generally speaking they must have reasonable suspicion of finding the article they're looking for. That doesn't include racial profiling. 

[Westley]

3 hours ago, Mice! said:

Maybe because they know they'll not be stopped and searched?

Maybe because they just don't care about pulling a knife, we'll all have read that some carry because others carry so it's about self defence, but then if trouble starts someone is going to pull that knife!

I wonder what the average sentence is with knife crime, probably nothing for carrying, you'd then expect something for using the knife, with a scale of time v severity,  but if the sentence isn't any different to getting caught for say burglary where's the deterrent??

Is the black community over represented in knife crime? Not if there committing the crimes.

 

Maybe the Police are too busy looking after each other's houses to worry about gang (tribal) related warfare  ??

It does not matter what the sentence is, with this misguided government, they will soon be back on the streets to continue the stabbings.

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

So he’s not purely advocating S&S either then but in fact something much more holistic.

 

He’s come up with a range of measures any of which will petrify all the smug white liberal hand wringers, and the lowest hanging fruit of course is:

“using stop-and-search powers as freely as they wish”

Go figure. 

It’s a great article and an interesting insight from someone who will know more than everyone involved in this thread put together.

I particularly liked the idea of targeting black youths in high risk areas, suspending race relation laws, hi tech surveillance, longer prison time and powers akin to anti terror laws. Yes, that’s my kind of ‘holistic’ albeit I see you selectively sampling one aspect out of context to try and make a point (poorly).

 

Edited September 4 by Mungler

[B686]

I think the reason a lot of these people who carry knives are just nasty ******** with little or no regard for life. 

[Raja Clavata]

2 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

He’s come up with a range of measures any of which will petrify all the smug white liberal hand wringers, and the lowest hanging fruit of course is:

“using stop-and-search powers as freely as they wish”

Go figure. 

It’s a great article and an interesting insight from someone who will know more than everyone involved in this thread put together.

I particularly liked the idea of targeting black youths in high risk areas, suspending race relation laws, hi tech surveillance, longer prison time and powers akin to anti terror laws. Yes, that’s my kind of ‘holistic’ albeit I see you selectively picking one aspect out of context and which is at the bottom of a long brutal list.

I mentioned the points I was querying or disagreed with. I believe it was in context. 

[Raja Clavata]

Okay, I think it’s a great article too purely since the great Mungler says it is 😂

[Mungler]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I mentioned the points I was querying or disagreed with. I believe it was in context. 

Not really.

10 brutal ideas (some going way beyond anything advocated on here) and yet you only focus on the council tax idea, which in terms of a holistic approach doesn’t make the first or second page of the list of proposed draconian but necessary measures, and you did that to reach for ‘holistic’ to suggest some whiff of ‘complex and cultural’.

His proposal is not holistic - it is the necessary brutal assault to fix the problem. But you can’t see any of it, not even from Trevor Philips who was right back in 2018 and remains proven right these years later. 

Indeed, there is a price 

 

It might make 'right-on' white liberals feel better. But the price of their smugness is an ongoing bloody massacre of black children with a casualty list that seems to lengthen by the day."

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Okay, I think it’s a great article too purely since the great Mungler says it is 😂

It’s great because (1) Torpedos all the white liberal nonsense you have espoused (2) it’s written by the black former head of the ECHR (3) it’s 6 years old and hindsight has proven it correct.

Objectively it’s time to close the thread so you can lick your wounds and look a little less silly.

Until next time eh? 😆

[12gauge82]

28 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

He’s come up with a range of measures any of which will petrify all the smug white liberal hand wringers, and the lowest hanging fruit of course is:

“using stop-and-search powers as freely as they wish”

Go figure. 

It’s a great article and an interesting insight from someone who will know more than everyone involved in this thread put together.

I particularly liked the idea of targeting black youths in high risk areas, suspending race relation laws, hi tech surveillance, longer prison time and powers akin to anti terror laws. Yes, that’s my kind of ‘holistic’ albeit I see you selectively sampling one aspect out of context to try and make a point (poorly).

 

So as I said earlier you'd like to see an unjust police state. Sounds wonderful 😲

[Raja Clavata]

11 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Not really.

10 brutal ideas (some going way beyond anything advocated on here) and yet you only focus on the council tax idea, which in terms of a holistic approach doesn’t make the first or second page of the list of proposed draconian but necessary measures, and you did that to reach for ‘holistic’ to suggest some whiff of ‘complex and cultural’.

His proposal is not holistic - it is the necessary brutal assault to fix the problem. But you can’t see any of it, not even from Trevor Philips who was right back in 2018 and remains proven right these years later. 

Indeed, there is a price 

 

It might make 'right-on' white liberals feel better. But the price of their smugness is an ongoing bloody massacre of black children with a casualty list that seems to lengthen by the day."

It’s great because (1) Torpedos all the white liberal nonsense you have espoused (2) it’s written by the black former head of the ECHR (3) it’s 6 years old and hindsight has proven it correct.

Objectively it’s time to close the thread so you can lick your wounds and look a little less silly.

Until next time eh? 😆

Yes really.

More holistic than simple stop and search.

Examples of the white liberal nonsense you claim I’ve espoused?

It hasn’t been proven correct, it hasn’t been implemented and likely never will be.

Objectively, lol. Your frequent, and latest, complete misreading of the situation is only trumped by you claiming I’m the one who looks silly.

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, Westley said:

does not matter what the sentence is, with this misguided government, they will soon be back on the streets to continue the stabbings.

That's it, no deterrent,  it must do the officers heads in, all the hassle involved arresting someone,  risking them attacking you with the knife, then some meaningless sentence if one is even given.

30 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

He’s come up with a range of measures any of which will petrify all the smug white liberal hand wringers, and the lowest hanging fruit of course is:

“using stop-and-search powers as freely as they wish”

Go figure. 

It’s a great article and an interesting insight from someone who will know more than everyone involved in this thread put together.

I particularly liked the idea of targeting black youths in high risk areas, suspending race relation laws, hi tech surveillance, longer prison time and powers akin to anti terror laws. Yes, that’s my kind of ‘holistic’ albeit I see you selectively sampling one aspect out of context to try and make a point (poorly).

 

I'd not seen the article, but he's spot on, while people in ivory towers say the police can't do this or that, someone will sue and scream racism,  more people die from stabbings, but let's not target anyone to be searched, just let the violence continue.