Keir Starmer in Berlin to "reset" Brexit

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Your shifting your point

No I'm not , you think us showing resistance to russia somehow makes china think again?

You said putting nato troops in force into Ukraine would make Russia stop ?

Why don't we base 100,000 US marines permanent in Taiwan, and then China won't attack them?

Too many assumptions with pretty gnarly outcomes if it all goes wrong I'm afraid.

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

As for who benifits, probably no one,

If there's no one benefitting from an action, why do it ?

I would say there is, but it isn't you , me or Ukraine. 

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

You seem to imply (correct me if I'm wrong) that Ukraine should hand the land over to Russia. Too that, I ask you if you would suggest the same if half of the UK had been invaded

Russia already has a fifth of Ukraine,  are they going to give it up ? Does Ukraine have the capacity to take it back by force ?

If the UK was invaded by a superior force, we would have to do the maths and decide how much death and destruction we were willing to take, for a chance of success.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

No I'm not , you think us showing resistance to russia somehow makes china think again?

You said putting nato troops in force into Ukraine would make Russia stop ?

Why don't we base 100,000 US marines permanent in Taiwan, and then China won't attack them?

Too many assumptions with pretty gnarly outcomes if it all goes wrong I'm afraid.

If there's no one benefitting from an action, why do it ?

I would say there is, but it isn't you , me or Ukraine. 

Russia already has a fifth of Ukraine,  are they going to give it up ? Does Ukraine have the capacity to take it back by force ?

If the UK was invaded by a superior force, we would have to do the maths and decide how much death and destruction we were willing to take, for a chance of success.

Bit of selective quoting there, but I think we get each others opinions. 

As for if the uk were invaded, we're clearly different people. I would never capitulate until the UK was free again, so I fully understand Ukrainian feeling. 

[Rewulf]

53 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I would never capitulate until the UK was free

Context ? Free from what ?

Sometimes countries get invaded because they have a tyrannical government, or civil war.

Would you die fighting a foreign power if there was a chance they would make your life better.

All hypothetical, as I'm sure you mean something different, and I'd fight against a foreign invader too if my life and loved ones were threatened.

[oowee]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

Russia already has a fifth of Ukraine,  are they going to give it up ? Does Ukraine have the capacity to take it back by force ?

 

Yes. What countries have invaded and held a country long term post hostilities. 

No. The same as Russia is unable to take Ukraine by force.

Russia is ruled by a dictator. That dictatorship has a time span. The country is a failed state of self interested factions. Those factions are feeling the pain of Putins war. It's simply a matter of time before that pain becomes unbearable.

The West is a loose collection of interests. The economic cost of the war is significant. It's simply a matter of time before that cost becomes unsustainable. 

When the fighting stops with whatever boundaries the hostilities will continue until the borders are reinstated. 

[12gauge82]

20 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Context ? Free from what ?

Sometimes countries get invaded because they have a tyrannical government, or civil war.

Would you die fighting a foreign power if there was a chance they would make your life better.

All hypothetical, as I'm sure you mean something different, and I'd fight against a foreign invader too if my life and loved ones were threatened.

The context is as a uk citizen, if any country invaded the UK I would not stop fighting, neither would I want my government to stop fighting until our country was fully liberated. I can only imagine the Ukrainians feel the same.

[Rewulf]

43 minutes ago, oowee said:

When the fighting stops with whatever boundaries the hostilities will continue until the borders are reinstated

 

39 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The context is as a uk citizen, if any country invaded the UK I would not stop fighting, neither would I want my government to stop fighting until our country was fully liberated. I can only imagine the Ukrainians feel the same.

Until there is no country left, no infrastructure, no economy,and no indigenous people left ?

Not many nations in history have ever gone down that path, the ones that have are forgotten about.

[oowee]

7 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

Until there is no country left, no infrastructure, no economy,and no indigenous people left ?

 

Has it ever happened? 

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, oowee said:

Has it ever happened? 

Throughout history, plenty of times, and attempted plenty more.

But I would suggest we discuss this elsewhere, or this thread is going to be locked.

[12gauge82]

23 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

Until there is no country left, no infrastructure, no economy,and no indigenous people left ?

Not many nations in history have ever gone down that path, the ones that have are forgotten about.

Very few countries can be held where the population won't tolerate it, Afghanistan is one of many good examples.

Back on topic, I wouldn't put it past Starmer to put a show on where he 'fights' to get a better deal. I hope the EU tell him to **** off. 

[oowee]

15 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Very few countries can be held where the population won't tolerate it, Afghanistan is one of many good examples.

Back on topic, I wouldn't put it past Starmer to put a show on where he 'fights' to get a better deal. I hope the EU tell him to **** off. 

There is nothing showy about Starmer. He will get a better deal more likely because it's in their interest. 

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

There is nothing showy about Starmer. He will get a better deal more likely because it's in their interest

If it's in their interest, why don't they come to us with a better deal? 

[oowee]

33 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

If it's in their interest, why don't they come to us with a better deal? 

They are 27 countries. Give him chance he has lots of clearing up to get on with. The last lot took 14years of procrastination to get this far he is going to take longer than 14 weeks. 

[Weihrauch17]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

There is nothing showy about Starmer. He will get a better deal more likely because it's in their interest. 

No you are correct, he is a total and utter R   Sole who has in eight weeks alienated the vast majority of the country except Junior Doctors and Train Drivers.

[Vince Green]

9 hours ago, oowee said:

There is nothing showy about Starmer. He will get a better deal more likely because it's in their interest. 

No, he will get the old deal with a fresh coat of paint and have to suffer a lot of condescending distain in order to get it

[Newbie to this]

23 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

As for if the uk were invaded, we're clearly different people. I would never capitulate until the UK was free again, so I fully understand Ukrainian feeling. 

Do you apply that logic to Ireland....................

[old man]

On 08/09/2024 at 22:07, oowee said:

There is nothing showy about Starmer. He will get a better deal more likely because it's in their interest. 

Well he certainly wouldn't get one if it wasn't? 

Struggling to think what he has to offer, most of the good stuff has been given away already?

22 hours ago, Vince Green said:

No, he will get the old deal with a fresh coat of paint and have to suffer a lot of condescending distain in order to get it

Methinks he must be used to that?

[oowee]

4 hours ago, old man said:

Well he certainly wouldn't get one if it wasn't? 

Struggling to think what he has to offer, most of the good stuff has been given away already?

Methinks he must be used to that?

He will negotiate with them as a Statesman. He will know the brief in detail. The EU is only used to bluster and sound bites from our side. 

Who knows if he will get anywhere or not. It has to be worth a try and it builds bridges and alliances where they were previously burnt. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

He will negotiate with them as a Statesman.

Like this ?

[Penelope]

19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Like this ?

He's already proven he can get down there.

[Vince Green]

42 minutes ago, oowee said:

He will negotiate with them as a Statesman. He will know the brief in detail. The EU is only used to bluster and sound bites from our side. 

Who knows if he will get anywhere or not. It has to be worth a try and it builds bridges and alliances where they were previously burnt. 

The EU has no mechanism to negotiate with. All the way through that has been the problem.  All the member states have to agree any deal and the reality has always been that never happens

[oowee]

31 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

The EU has no mechanism to negotiate with. All the way through that has been the problem.  All the member states have to agree any deal and the reality has always been that never happens

Presumably they then agreed the last deal. So to say it never happens is not reality. 

Seems to me you have to start with the bigger players and build support for whatever they are trying to do. 

[udderlyoffroad]

Quote

Who do I call if I want to speak to Europe?

Was never actually said by Kissinger, but he would've had a point.

 

45 minutes ago, oowee said:

Seems to me you have to start with the bigger players and build support for whatever they are trying to do. 

But what is Keir Rodney trying to do, precisely?  You might think he's a statesman, he's not, he's a lawyer.  What the EU needs to do is fundamentally reform and become orders of magnitude less insular.  What they want is for the UK to take up its old position as fearless enforcer of their every rule, to its own detriment, and pay handsomely for the privilege.

In any case, their former chief negotiator has now been handed the poisoned chalice of  being the head of the French government, whilst new his boss has spent his entire term being openly disdainful of the concerns of the ordinary, non-Parisian citizen. 

Actually, come to think of it, Keir Rodney is doing a 'Macron' - imply that anyone who doesn't see things from his Islington world view is obviously 'far right'.

 

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Presumably they then agreed the last deal. So to say it never happens is not reality. 

Seems to me you have to start with the bigger players and build support for whatever they are trying to do. 

Yes but it's a massively drawn out process with lots of pandering to the egos of tinpot politicians in the minor member states.

It's one of the fundamental flaws in the constitution of the EU. It's a round table so everything takes twenty seven times as long as it should. If one disagrees then you have to start all over again

Edited September 10 by Vince Green

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Was never actually said by Kissinger, but he would've had a point.

 

But what is Keir Rodney trying to do, precisely?  You might think he's a statesman, he's not, he's a lawyer.  What the EU needs to do is fundamentally reform and become orders of magnitude less insular.  What they want is for the UK to take up its old position as fearless enforcer of their every rule, to its own detriment, and pay handsomely for the privilege.

In any case, their former chief negotiator has now been handed the poisoned chalice of  being the head of the French government, whilst new his boss has spent his entire term being openly disdainful of the concerns of the ordinary, non-Parisian citizen. 

Actually, come to think of it, Keir Rodney is doing a 'Macron' - imply that anyone who doesn't see things from his Islington world view is obviously 'far right'.

 

? who? 

1 minute ago, Vince Green said:

Yes but it's a massively drawn out process with lots of pandering to the egos of tinpot politicians in the minor member states.

It's one of the fundamental flaws in the constitution of the EU. It's a round table so everything takes twenty times as long as it should. If one disagrees then you have to start all over again

So we are agreed. It does happen. We want it to happen to further the UK's interests. So it is a good move by Kier to kick start the process. He may not get anywhere but he certainly will not if he does not try. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Presumably they then agreed the last deal. So to say it never happens is not reality. 

No it never happened in reality.
The wishy washy deal, that would have solved nothing for the UK, was solely dependent on Cameron forcing the electorate to vote remain, and being the out of touch toff that he is, was very confident he could make the  peasants vote accordingly.

The 2015–2016 United Kingdom renegotiation of European Union membership was an unimplemented non-binding package of changes to the United Kingdom's terms of its European Union (EU) membership as a member state and changes to EU rules which were first proposed by Prime Minister David Cameron in January 2013, with negotiations beginning in the summer of 2015 following the outcome of the UK General Election.^[1][2] The package was agreed by the President of the European Council Donald Tusk, and approved by EU leaders of all 27 other countries at the European Council session in Brussels on 18–19 February 2016 between the United Kingdom and the rest of the European Union.^[3][4] The changes were intended to take effect following a vote for "Remain" in the UK's in-out referendum in June 2016, at which point suitable legislative proposals would be presented by the European Commission. Due to the outcome of the referendum in which the electorate voted by 51.9% to 48.1% to leave the bloc, the changes were never implemented and subsequently the United Kingdom withdrew from the European Union in January 2020.

1 hour ago, oowee said:

We want it to happen to further the UK's interests. So it is a good move by Kier to kick start the process.

Kier isnt going to start anything, hes got a set of instructions he has to follow, one of those is to get the UK back on board for the EU superstate dream.
Its not going to be a negotiation, because hes not a negotiator, hes a lickspittle, an appeaser, his idea of negotiating is to listen to what the other side wants, and just give it to them with nothing in return, hes just proved that with the first two unions hes dealt with.
The mans out of his depth and he knows it.