Should shotgun and firearm certificates be on the accepted list of photo IDs for elections?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

11 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

Final thought? Giving people a question means they can say yes or no. It doesn't mean it's something they want, need, or desire. The issue I have with this is not that the answer is what is the answer, but more was it the correct question to begin with.

Yes indeed.

[Conor O'Gorman]

10 hours ago, HantsRob said:

I would suggest people shouldn't keep a document that could allow fraud to be kept in a glovebox
The "no other photo ID" is valid for such a tiny proportion of the population
Principle? Which principle, apart from they would like it? I don't see what principle would apply?

Who are you expecting to ask to inspect/produce your licence? The Police don't need it as it's on PNC.

Non-RFD transfer would be problematic without internet access. But, I'd also say for £4 you can buy a replacement licence for a "lost" licence, so you have a potential issue with selling a gun to someone with a legit licence when their main one is seized. Having access to an online licence (and finding internet in a coffee shop or someones home or a safe place to transfer guns) is less of an issue than the current potential fraudulence licence. For the safety side, it would be end to end encrypted and would be secure.

Hackers - valid, but no different to any website in the world.

 

I do agree that change costs money, and it does work by and large. There are issues with the current system but it's relatively cheap. I think your final line sums it up nicely though, I think this is not a good use of time for BASC, as opposed to other more important topics.

Final thought? Giving people a question means they can say yes or no. It doesn't mean it's something they want, need, or desire. The issue I have with this is not that the answer is what is the answer, but more was it the correct question to begin with.

I think the principle is fairly clear for those that want or need to use their cert as voter ID. The right to vote itself is a principle. Not that long ago some argued against opening up the right to vote to 'others'. Put yourself in the shoes of people that have turned up to vote in good faith with their certs as photo ID and been denied the opportunity to vote. As per the article linked from the OP the same principles apply for those that have served in the UK Armed Forces being unable to vote using their Ministry of Defence-issued veteran cards.

[enfieldspares]

A Permis de Chasse is valid ID in France for a French national to vote. Interestingly if your electorate in the relevant constituency your are voting in is less than 1,000 no ID is required.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1361

Edited September 29 by enfieldspares

[quentyn]

Yes I think that they should 

An fac is acceptable ID to fly internally in the uk (though I have never tried it)!

 

Now if you *should* that's a different question 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, quentyn said:

Yes I think that they should An fac is acceptable ID to fly internally in the uk (though I have never tried it)! Now if you *should* that's a different question 

Well if you were flying to Scotland to go stalking it would make perfect sense.

[HantsRob]

11 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I think the principle is fairly clear for those that want or need to use their cert as voter ID. The right to vote itself is a principle. Not that long ago some argued against opening up the right to vote to 'others'. Put yourself in the shoes of people that have turned up to vote in good faith with their certs as photo ID and been denied the opportunity to vote. As per the article linked from the OP the same principles apply for those that have served in the UK Armed Forces being unable to vote using their Ministry of Defence-issued veteran cards.

I am all for a right to vote. 
Equally that doesn't mean a certificate that's never been accepted as legal identity should mean they have been denied to vote. That's akin to me turning up in good faith with my sports centre photo ID and being "denied the opportunity to vote". Comparing this situation to the right to vote to 'others' is frankly crass, and I am disappointed you chose those arguments.

I would agree an MoD official photo ID should be accepted.
I would agree other IDs could be considered.

It may be flippant, but I don't know anyone with a SGC or FAC that doesn't have at least one of these items:

Driving licence
Passport
Blue badge
Funded bus pass (elderly, disabled etc)
PASS card
MOD90
Foreign national identity card
FREE voters authority certificate 

Lets bear in mind out of date ID is allowed as long as it still looks like you. The bottom on the list is a free certificate to vote, so even people without photoID can have the right to vote, and everyone can achieve one of the above even if it's having to apply for the free voters authority certificate. I am questioning why people have believed their SGC/FAC is a legally recognised proof of identity, in the scope of electoral voting. I am not sure why it needs to be added, and I think you have more voices on this thread questioning if you should rather than could.

Regardless, I still think moving it to a credit card size (if we go that way) would mean I would often have it with me in my wallet, I find it personally odd that people are leaving a document that's so valuable in their car, and carry no other form of identification. For voting, it's not new news of what ID is acceptable either, any naivety is not a document issue. As the police will often say; ignorance of the law is not a defence.  

[enfieldspares]

3 hours ago, HantsRob said:

The bottom on the list is a free certificate to vote, so even people without photoID can have the right to vote, and everyone can achieve one of the above even if it's having to apply for the free voters authority certificate.

Yes. I have one. And used it this year. It is disappointingly an A4 piece of paper. I had been hoping for a plastic card a British version similar to my wife's Nigerian PVC (Personal Voting Card) that could be used as an ID when borrowing a dongle at a clay ground or that sort of thing. That if forgotten its loss wouldn't be as catastrophic as losing a driving licence or bus pass. Something that you'd be happy to say "post it to me" or "I'll collect it next Wednesday fortnight". But sadly it is just a piece of paper. Useful for the task it was meant for but useless for much anything else...or as a "marker" when taking out a dongle at a clay ground.

[Conor O'Gorman]

Here is the Electoral Commission report which recommends that the UK government review and expand the list of accepted ID, and identify any additional documents that could be added.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/research-reports-and-data/our-reports-and-data-past-elections-and-referendums/voter-id-2024-uk-general-election

 

[Shadowchaser]

If you want to exchange old bank notes at the Bank of England itself you may be asked to provide proof of ID. 

We may ask you for identification (ID) and proof of address for an exchange of any value.

Identity documents we accept are:

• valid passport
• valid photo card driving licence (full or provisional)
• British residents’ permits
• national identity card (if you are a non-UK national)
• firearm or shotgun certificate.

 

I noticed this on their website some years back and it stuck in my mind. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

15 hours ago, Shadowchaser said:

If you want to exchange old bank notes at the Bank of England itself you may be asked to provide proof of ID. 

We may ask you for identification (ID) and proof of address for an exchange of any value.

Identity documents we accept are:

• valid passport
• valid photo card driving licence (full or provisional)
• British residents’ permits
• national identity card (if you are a non-UK national)
• firearm or shotgun certificate.

 

I noticed this on their website some years back and it stuck in my mind. 

That's good to know - just checked and firearm and shotgun certs are still identification docs they accept. Many years ago I used to use SGC as check-in ID for flights to/from Liverpool and Belfast.

[bruno22rf]

I've used my FAC and Shotgun certs many times when voting - never been questioned?

[Conor O'Gorman]

25 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

I've used my FAC and Shotgun certs many times when voting - never been questioned?

Most people's experience I have heard back from trying to use FAC/SGC is being turned away as SGC/FAC not currently on the accepted list. Perhaps the poll clerks and presiding officer in your polling station are a bit more flexible than most on the photo IDs.

Letter in today's Shooting Times about SGC/FAC as Voter ID

 

[Vince Green]

 

Apparently, you can buy fake but very convincing looking driving licences on the internet for about £10. They will put any name and photo on them. I have no personal experience I would like to make clear

Two questions

1) what honest person would have any reason to want to buy one?

2) what is the point in photo ID anyway? If you can buy fake ID for a tenner?

Fingerprint or facial recognition is the way forward 

[JohnfromUK]

57 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

 

Apparently, you can buy fake but very convincing looking driving licences on the internet for about £10. They will put any name and photo on them. I have no personal experience I would like to make clear

Two questions

1) what honest person would have any reason to want to buy one?

2) what is the point in photo ID anyway? If you can buy fake ID for a tenner?

Fingerprint or facial recognition is the way forward 

You can (apparently) buy many fakes (and loads of 'things - designer clothes, 'Rolex' watches, even olive oil) because although there is some checking such as trading standards,  the gains are high and the risks are low.

Fake MoTs used to be a big thing, but presumably now largely overtaken by on line checking being available - though it is alleged that 'fake pass' issued by dodgy test stations is still a problem.  Checking each ID on line would take too long, but I guess staff could have the facility to check any about which their suspicions are raised.  But would ant staff bother?

[Robden]

8 hours ago, Vince Green said:

 

Apparently, you can buy fake but very convincing looking driving licences on the internet for about £10. They will put any name and photo on them. I have no personal experience I would like to make clear

Two questions

1) what honest person would have any reason to want to buy one?

2) what is the point in photo ID anyway? If you can buy fake ID for a tenner?

Fingerprint or facial recognition is the way forward 

Why pay a tenner?  Fill in the form with any lies you want, post it off to the DVLC with a photo of someone, and a few days later you'll get a licence.

I'm not saying that I would use mine as proof, but I don't understand WHY our cert's aren't any good. Surely there shouldn't be any doubt, what with the police, doctors and refs being involved, plus face to face interviews, to prove you are who you say you are.

As for people knowing that there is gun on the premises, need it be a bad thing?!?   You show your ID (with a very NICE address) to someone who has seen you get out of your top of the range motor, wearing an expensive Rolex etc, and they may think to themselves "they've got a few bob, could be worth a visit."  However, if they know there's a gun on the premises, they may think to themselves, "Oh, oh! There's a gun there and they may be willing or mad enough to use it."

 

[HantsRob]

23 hours ago, Robden said:

I'm not saying that I would use mine as proof, but I don't understand WHY our cert's aren't any good. Surely there shouldn't be any doubt, what with the police, doctors and refs being involved, plus face to face interviews, to prove you are who you say you are.

 

If fake driving licences are fooling a lot of people, how much easier do you think it would be with printed paper?

The quality of the photo is poor, and whilst there's several things on the paper, they just want to know a name fits the address on their paperwork, and I doubt it would matter. I think the same goes for the DLs.

I agree that a SGC/FAC goes through far more checks, but the end paperwork would be easily replicated if people didn't know what to check for on the physical paper.