EU and Uk leaders out of touch with public opinion. Time for a reset.

[12gauge82]

35 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

I don't accept that it's anything to do with Brexit. How can it be? There is no connection. Except obliquely that France won't stop the boats because it wants to punish us for escaping.

So, if you are saying that we shouldn't have voted for Brexit because France would behave badly. I would say it just shows  that we were right to leave, and good riddance.

Absolutely. Who'd want to be a member of a mafia gang. 

[Weihrauch17]

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Absolutely. Who'd want to be a member of a mafia gang. 

Only one on here who does 🤣

[Remimax]

see the EU are up to the usual mafia  tactics , demanding we  hand over our fishing rights along with taking on go knows how many 18-30 year old "students".so that's a done deal then with the current clowns we have  in the driving seat.

Edited December 14 by Remimax

[oowee]

3 hours ago, Vince Green said:

I don't accept that it's anything to do with Brexit. How can it be? There is no connection. Except obliquely that France won't stop the boats because it wants to punish us for escaping.

So, if you are saying that we shouldn't have voted for Brexit because France would behave badly. I would say it just shows  that we were right to leave, and good riddance.

Nothing to do with boats France or the EU. These migrants come on work tickets that are only available because of Brexit. They bring with them larger associated families than similar workers from Europe. If we had free movement we would not accept applications (minor exceptions) from the third world. Simple fact. 

Least of your worries. Next comes trade wars. 

[Mungler]

Another classic remainer conflation is the binary ‘Brexit lead to mass immigration’; no a weak government and an even weaker civil service let that happen. A sovereign nation can do as it pleases, except when the very machinery of government acts to the contrary.

Ditto on trade and trade deals. It’s perfectly possible to trade with countries we don’t like and we don’t have to ascribe to that country’s currency, legal or political infrastructure or border policies.

Mutually beneficial trade with Europe (being how EU membership was originally sold to us) brilliant, all the rest of it, no thanks and no need (when you delve into it). Trade can be entirely independent of any other Brexit related issues. 

[old man]

11 hours ago, oowee said:

Nothing to do with boats France or the EU. These migrants come on work tickets that are only available because of Brexit. They bring with them larger associated families than similar workers from Europe. If we had free movement we would not accept applications (minor exceptions) from the third world. Simple fact. 

Least of your worries. Next comes trade wars. 

Really, you think?

Nothing so different then except the source, as the warring we continually experience is usually conspired at home? 🙉

[Mungler]

This weekend, we reached a total of 35,000 illegal economic migrants arriving by boat and of course they are just the ones we know of and don’t include other routes into the country.

The government has the stats (which they won’t release) but our eyes tell us that of those 35,000, 30,000 are young men.

It is political blarney and smoke and mirrors that allows this to happen. We’re told they’re refugees and asylum seekers - they absolutely are not. 

Forcing a return to French shores, Rwanda or instant deportation to anywhere are all possible options. But we get the brick bats ‘ah well we need to leave the ECHR’. So? Get it done. France won’t take them back? Really, they will if they have no choice (and ignoring the £500m we spaff up a wall annually with the French to stop this happening).

Anything can happen and be done if we want it and make it happen. 

We have been mugged off for decades now, and the public discontent is now absolutely obvious as too the economic damage which results and yet it continues and both under Conservative and Labour. I’m not big on conspiracies but there has to be an underlying reason for this. 

As for legitimate economic migration through officials channels - whilst the high volume of numbers concern and baffle me, at least we know who these people are, that they have followed a system and presumably have something to offer / meet a criteria. 

Edited December 15 by Mungler

[oowee]

Record numbers returned since they took the thousand staff working on the Rwanda tour and put them on the repatriation program. 👍

Lots to do. 

[Weihrauch17]

4 hours ago, Mungler said:

Another classic remainer conflation is the binary ‘Brexit lead to mass immigration’; no a weak government and an even weaker civil service let that happen. A sovereign nation can do as it pleases, except when the very machinery of government acts to the contrary.

Ditto on trade and trade deals. It’s perfectly possible to trade with countries we don’t like and we don’t have to ascribe to that country’s currency, legal or political infrastructure or border policies.

Mutually beneficial trade with Europe (being how EU membership was originally sold to us) brilliant, all the rest of it, no thanks and no need (when you delve into it). Trade can be entirely independent of any other Brexit related issues. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14193593/Keir-Starmers-surrender-squad-Brexit-PM-Whitehall-unit-Brussels.html

[Raja Clavata]

On 14/12/2024 at 08:23, Scully said:

Do you mean having to explain why they voted to leave? It’s tiresome I know, but not as boring as constantly being told that we ‘knew what we were voting for’. 🙂

Speaking for myself, I knew exactly what I was voting for. 

I mean both sides having to reiterate their position and justify it for the umpteenth time.

I have no doubt that you personally knew what you were voting for but in the majority, Brexit was won on immigration and look how well that’s gone.

I accept Brexit is done and would vote against us rejoining the EU if a vote was put to the public again but I don’t recall seeing anyone on here who voted for Brexit admitting they feel like they were misled and now regret doing so. This is in stark contrast to the real world and the circle of friends who I know of which many leavers now concede it was a bad idea.

[Raja Clavata]

4 hours ago, Mungler said:

Another classic remainer conflation is the binary ‘Brexit lead to mass immigration’; 

I don’t see this conflation, I see plenty remainers saying Brexit hasn’t fixed the illegal immigration problem like it was promised to do. 

I do believe Brexit has led higher levels of legal immigration from people outside of the EU. Pretty sure the published numbers support this point too.

It’s really important to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration in such discussions, but hey you already know that.

[Weihrauch17]

6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I mean both sides having to reiterate their position and justify it for the umpteenth time.

I have no doubt that you personally knew what you were voting for but in the majority, Brexit was won on immigration and look how well that’s gone.

I accept Brexit is done and would vote against us rejoining the EU if a vote was put to the public again but I don’t recall seeing anyone on here who voted for Brexit admitting they feel like they were misled and now regret doing so. This is in stark contrast to the real world and the circle of friends who I know of which many leavers now concede it was a bad idea.

We didn't get Brexit though did we, ask our Fishing Fleet and Northern Ireland.  We got BRINO and a spiteful rise in Immigration to punish people for voting to leave.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Weihrauch17 said:

We didn't get Brexit though did we, ask our Fishing Fleet and Northern Ireland.  We got BRINO and a spiteful rise in Immigration to punish people for voting to leave.

So you think the previous Tory and current Labour government are not addressing illegal immigration in order to punish us for voting leave even though apparently we only left in name only?

Sounds a bit conspiracy theorist-tastic to me, or at the very least like there’s a bunch of really confused people within the British public.

[Weihrauch17]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

So you think the previous Tory and current Labour government are not addressing illegal immigration in order to punish us for voting leave even though apparently we only left in name only?

Sounds a bit conspiracy theorist-tastic to me, or at the very least like there’s a bunch of really confused people within the British public.

I am talking about the huge rise in legal immigration not the boats.

[Raja Clavata]

1 minute ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I am talking about the huge rise in legal immigration not the boats.

Thanks for clarifying but what other choices were there?

It’s not a popular concept but I do sometimes wonder what kind of state we’d be in if there was no illegal nor legal immigration into the UK. Things would be different for sure, difficult to see how they’d be much better, likely just a different set f problems.

We have an aging population and low birth rates, and we are far from alone in these issues.

[Mungler]

20 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I don’t see this conflation, I see plenty remainers saying Brexit hasn’t fixed the illegal immigration problem like it was promised to do. 

I do believe Brexit has led higher levels of legal immigration from people outside of the EU. Pretty sure the published numbers support this point too.

It’s really important to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration in such discussions, but hey you already know that.

We’re actually in agreement. Measured legal migration through the right channels to ensure we get the right people who can contribute - why not, but query the level. 

Illegal migration, that needs stopping and I have no idea why someone hasn’t got a hold of it. If we have to leave the ECHR then so be it. If we need a Rwanda, then get it done. If we need to blockage and push the boats back to France, then do that. But this isn’t a conservative v. Labour issue - both have failed and continued to fail and in the face of massive public support for getting something done and the issue addressed.

[Weihrauch17]

25 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Thanks for clarifying but what other choices were there?

It’s not a popular concept but I do sometimes wonder what kind of state we’d be in if there was no illegal nor legal immigration into the UK. Things would be different for sure, difficult to see how they’d be much better, likely just a different set f problems.

We have an aging population and low birth rates, and we are far from alone in these issues.

What other choices were there?  Train British people to satisfy our employment needs.  Apprenticeships are few and far between these days, encourage them financially for employers and penalise those who go straight to Foreign Labour .  Stop foreign students bringing their family with them, that is farcical.  They only started restrictions on this in 2024, why was it ever allowed but it still is under certain conditions. Minimise what family Foreign workers can bring.  Huge low skilled immigration does not benefit the country in any shape or fashion, it puts huge pressure on Schools, Prisons, the NHS, Housing etc etc the list goes on and on.

Edited December 15 by Weihrauch17

[armsid]

Weirauch17 i agree and if you follow a previous post of mine the point you make about bosses should be fined for hiring non UK workers is happening in FranceWe should be/have been traing apprenticeships etc. all the time and it is utter madnrss to have 1.5 million under 25,s out of work while we allow uncontrolled immigration to do the jobs these under 25,s could and should be trained for ,instead we feed clothe and medical assist them to stay home losing millions of pounds in NI, tax etc and still punish people who have worked and paid taxes all their lives all because we have and still have politicians who will not get the country working on jobs that have been made abroad which could and should be done here the result will be a bankrupt nation

[oowee]

The two should work together. No point longer term importing workers when we have such a potentially large idle work force. Take the workers for now but lets get the rest working where possible. To do that we need some free cash and that's going to take a while 

11 minutes ago, armsid said:

and still punish people who have worked and paid taxes all their lives all because we have and still have politicians who will not get the country working on jobs that have been made abroad which could and should be done here the result will be a bankrupt nation

Who has been punished? If you mean pensioner fuel allowance. Maybe it should never have been paid in the first place? Or instead, we pay pensioners out proportionate to what was paid in rather than the one size fits all benefit paid now?

[armsid]

OOWEE you know as well as the rest of us if working paid well there would not be a dole queue when there are jobs but people will not take them as benefits are higher than some people can earn Want an example ? The man in Clacton interviewed during Election campaign drawing £1300.00 per mth after housing costs where is he going to get a job paying nearly £2000.00 a mnth and  then only being £700.00 a mnth better off and losing all benifits and paying tax and NI

[oowee]

58 minutes ago, armsid said:

OOWEE you know as well as the rest of us if working paid well there would not be a dole queue when there are jobs but people will not take them as benefits are higher than some people can earn Want an example ? The man in Clacton interviewed during Election campaign drawing £1300.00 per mth after housing costs where is he going to get a job paying nearly £2000.00 a mnth and  then only being £700.00 a mnth better off and losing all benifits and paying tax and NI

If that's as it sounds then I would agree, I am sure there are many in the same situation. For whatever reason we never seem to get the benefits balance right.

I would doubt it covers the 2.5m job vacancies filled by job applicants. 

[Whitebridges]

8 hours ago, Mungler said:

Another classic remainer conflation is the binary ‘Brexit lead to mass immigration’; no a weak government and an even weaker civil service let that happen. A sovereign nation can do as it pleases, except when the very machinery of government acts to the contrary.

Ditto on trade and trade deals. It’s perfectly possible to trade with countries we don’t like and we don’t have to ascribe to that country’s currency, legal or political infrastructure or border policies.

Mutually beneficial trade with Europe (being how EU membership was originally sold to us) brilliant, all the rest of it, no thanks and no need (when you delve into it). Trade can be entirely independent of any other Brexit related issues. 

 

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

We’re actually in agreement. Measured legal migration through the right channels to ensure we get the right people who can contribute - why not, but query the level. 

Illegal migration, that needs stopping and I have no idea why someone hasn’t got a hold of it. If we have to leave the ECHR then so be it. If we need a Rwanda, then get it done. If we need to blockage and push the boats back to France, then do that. But this isn’t a conservative v. Labour issue - both have failed and continued to fail and in the face of massive public support for getting something done and the issue addressed.

 

[Whitebridges]

All you say is fair and accurate.

Europe is on it's knees. Our problem curently is the lack of a statesman , a true leader. 

I agree , pro Europe UK based "losers" are only interested in fast track flights from UK airports and their own bottoms , rather than the strength of the British economy. 

I'm glad we left the " cosy club" and can't wait to see the European Union fall.           

[Scully]

4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I mean both sides having to reiterate their position and justify it for the umpteenth time.

I have no doubt that you personally knew what you were voting for but in the majority, Brexit was won on immigration and look how well that’s gone.

I accept Brexit is done and would vote against us rejoining the EU if a vote was put to the public again but I don’t recall seeing anyone on here who voted for Brexit admitting they feel like they were misled and now regret doing so. This is in stark contrast to the real world and the circle of friends who I know of which many leavers now concede it was a bad idea.

Indeed. I was in no doubt as to why I voted to leave, and it had absolutely nothing to do with immigration whether legal or otherwise. 
The reason we are stuck with it is because our politicians of all persuasion lack the will ( backbone ) to do anything about it.
There is an agenda at work in my opinion, and our politicians are terrified of upsetting the ‘neighbours’ lest it sours that agenda. 

[Weihrauch17]

23 minutes ago, Scully said:

Indeed. I was in no doubt as to why I voted to leave, and it had absolutely nothing to do with immigration whether legal or otherwise. 
The reason we are stuck with it is because our politicians of all persuasion lack the will ( backbone ) to do anything about it.
There is an agenda at work in my opinion, and our politicians are terrified of upsetting the ‘neighbours’ lest it sours that agenda. 

There is an agenda and it belongs to the WEF and Starmer and the King fully support it.

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2024/01/migration-model-sustainable-development/