Give and old girl a new home.

[BobbyH]

4 hours ago, Minky said:

A few pictures of the AyA #4 that I retrieved from the scrap pile headed for the chopper.  This has got to be some sort of crime to scrap stuff like this.  I did chop in an a very clattery AyA in place of this one to keep the guns on ticket the same amount.  I hated to do that but hey Ho.

edit.  I forgot,  the stocks go in the wood burner.

Beauty!!

[Feltwad]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

At the risk of repeating myself, if your Damascus barrelled gun is capable of shooting lead then it is capable of shooting standard steel. 
You’re correct in one aspect, which is that it is down to the attitude of fellow shooters, especially those who are stuck in their ways and refuse to heed sound advice. 
If you scrap your Damascus barrelled gun as you mentioned doing some time ago, then the only person you’re hurting is you. I don’t get that attitude at all. 🤷‍♂️
Alternatives are available.  

Gun heritage is more important than  shooting steel  through a Damascus barrel that will not last for long we hold them in trust not too dispose has we please  by shooting steel

Fellwad

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

Gun heritage is more important than  shooting steel  through a Damascus barrel that will not last for long we hold them in trust not too dispose has we please  by shooting steel

Fellwad

You do understand don’t you, that steel shot is not in contact with the internal wall of the barrel at any point? Don’t you? 

[Feltwad]

30 minutes ago, Scully said:

You do understand don’t you, that steel shot is not in contact with the internal wall of the barrel at any point? Don’t you? 

Explain yourself . Do you mean that the steel shot is  in a plastic wad or such if so do you release that  with Damascus barrel on  most hammer gun and all muzzle loader only black powder is used  which in turn will melt plastic on the walls of the bore which then causes barrel ripple and other problems . Always remember Damascus  barrel is not a steel barrel it was not made for shooting steel.

Feltwad

[Scully]

20 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

Explain yourself . Do you mean that the steel shot is  in a plastic wad or such if so do you release that  with Damascus barrel on  most hammer gun and all muzzle loader only black powder is used  which in turn will melt plastic on the walls of the bore which then causes barrel ripple and other problems . Always remember Damascus  barrel is not a steel barrel it was not made for shooting steel.

Feltwad

Yes. The steel shot is encased in either plastic or some other type of case. 
Whilst I know muzzle loaders use black powder, nowadays most Damascus shotguns and hammer guns in use, employ modern propellants, not black powder. 
As I mentioned in another thread, the Danes have been using steel shot in Damascus barrels for a long long time, with no ill effects, including the ‘barrel ripple’ you constantly mention. 
Like I said, if you want to consign your Damascus guns to the history books then it’s no one else’s loss but yours. 

[Minky]

1 hour ago, Feltwad said:

Gun heritage is more important than  shooting steel  through a Damascus barrel that will not last for long we hold them in trust not too dispose has we please  by shooting steel

Fellwad

There is an important point here.  Soon you WILL have to shoot without lead or plastic.  this will mean that will have no option other than to scrap these old guns or to have them disabled and get a proof cert .  you won't be able to just hold onto them as museum pieces.  you now have to show regular use of weapons.  Using non toxic type ammunition.  You can blame basc for that one

Edited Thursday at 22:02 by Minky

[islandgun]

22 minutes ago, Minky said:

There is an important point here.  Soon you WILL have to shoot without lead or plastic.  this will mean that will have no option other than to scrap these old guns or to have them disabled and get a proof cert .  you won't be able to just hold onto them as museum pieces.  you now have to show regular use of weapons.  Using non toxic type ammunition.  You can blame basc for that one

Bismuth............. can be used in any barrel, I have two Damascus guns both get used as regularly as I want [or not] who's to say any different

[enfieldspares]

58 minutes ago, Minky said:

Soon you WILL have to shoot without lead or plastic.  this will mean that will have no option other than to scrap these old guns or to have them disabled and get a proof cert .  you won't be able to just hold onto them as museum pieces.  you now have to show regular use of weapons. 

I do wish that people who do not know what the law says would stop posting incorrect information on P/W and then repeating the same incorrect information in another thread on P/W.

That is not at all what the law says. Not at all. And made clear in the Firearms Act s28.

s28 Special provisions about shot gun certificates.

(1)Subject to subsection (1A) below, a shot gun certificate shall be granted or, as the case may be, renewed by the chief officer of police if he is satisfied that the applicant can be permitted to possess a shot gun without danger to the public safety or to the peace.

(1A)No such certificate shall be granted or renewed if the chief officer of police—

(a)has reason to believe that the applicant is prohibited by this Act from possessing a shot gun; or

(b)is satisfied that the applicant does not have a good reason for possessing, purchasing or acquiring one.

(1B)For the purposes of paragraph (b) of subsection (1A) above an applicant shall, in particular, be regarded as having a good reason if the gun is intended to be used for sporting or competition purposes or for shooting vermin; and an application shall not be refused by virtue of that paragraph merely because the applicant intends neither to use the gun himself nor to lend it for anyone else to use.

Edited Thursday at 23:00 by enfieldspares

[HantsRob]

9 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

I do wish that people who do not know what the law says would stop posting incorrect information on P/W and then repeating the same incorrect information in another thread on P/W.

 

ES, fully agree with what you have posted, law wise. I suspect the 2 bits of information that was mentioned could be tweaked?

I believe after a full lead ban that they will seek to ban plaswad next, over however many years that may take. So I can see that as a move, and I see it as a positive move once there are viable alternatives.
I suspect their thought was towards FAC shotguns rather than SGC. You are 100% correct on SGC that you do not need to show use, but I believe for FAC firearms you have to show a demonstrable use? I am half questioning as I do not have a FAC, either open or closed, and suspect it's a "it depends". For example if you are an animal despatcher it would be reasonable to own a gun you may not use for 3 years, whereas a closed licence for use at a specific range has to be shown to be used?

Happy to be corrected, but those are my thoughts where your quoted person may have been going down, and would appreciate your (and anyone elses) thoughts on my comments above.

[Gas seal]

The old gun license was to use a gun. The firearms licence you will have to show use of the firearms.
My friend shoots with muzzle loaders one was a 6bore . Some years ago we made cardboard( tube ) wads and loaded bismuth shot. They worked and were easy to load.he has some wads loaded with steel pellets number six shot just never got to try them.  One gun is a flint lock and we will shoot pigeons with it and use a semi auto shot gun as well. The old and the new.

There is alternative ammunition and wads for guns some better and some worse than lead . Most will be more expensive. It’s up to the individual shooters to decide what to use. I wouldn’t like to destroy these old muzzle loaders I would use alternative ammunition.

[grahamch]

12 hours ago, Minky said:

There is an important point here.  Soon you WILL have to shoot without lead or plastic.  this will mean that will have no option other than to scrap these old guns or to have them disabled and get a proof cert .  you won't be able to just hold onto them as museum pieces.  you now have to show regular use of weapons.  Using non toxic type ammunition.  You can blame basc for that one

use bismuth instead

[Feltwad]

2 hours ago, Gas seal said:

The old gun license was to use a gun. The firearms licence you will have to show use of the firearms.
My friend shoots with muzzle loaders one was a 6bore . Some years ago we made cardboard( tube ) wads and loaded bismuth shot. They worked and were easy to load.he has some wads loaded with steel pellets number six shot just never got to try them.  One gun is a flint lock and we will shoot pigeons with it and use a semi auto shot gun as well. The old and the new.

There is alternative ammunition and wads for guns some better and some worse than lead . Most will be more expensive. It’s up to the individual shooters to decide what to use. I wouldn’t like to destroy these old muzzle loaders I would use alternative ammunition.

I am afraid there is no other alternative  it is only lead  has Bismuth is  not proven in Damascus barrels with black powder  Muzzle loading uses only black powder and it is the most expensive  type of shooting  and to use a costly  component has Bismuth  will not solve  the situation but only encourage the down fall  of Damascus's barrel guns 

Feltwad

[Scully]

36 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

I am afraid there is no other alternative  it is only lead  has Bismuth is  not proven in Damascus barrels with black powder  Muzzle loading uses only black powder and it is the most expensive  type of shooting  and to use a costly  component has Bismuth  will not solve  the situation but only encourage the down fall  of Damascus's barrel guns 

Feltwad

Is it me or are you just being obstinate bordering on ignorant? The experience of the Danes with 29 years of using standard steel shot through Damascus shotguns is out there for all to read! 

https://sporting-gun.com/shooting/life-without-lead-the-danish-perspective/

And this….

[Pushandpull]

Some of us have been using bismuth with BP or nitro in damascus barrels for the last quarter of a century.

[Scully]

18 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

Some of us have been using bismuth with BP or nitro in damascus barrels for the last quarter of a century.

Quite. None so blind as those who refuse to see. 

[Feltwad]

With 77years of shooting and restoring Damascus barrel guns   most  likely before you were born  and  forgetting more about Damascus barrels than you will ever know   to be personal  by called ignorant because I do not agree  is a bit below the belt  

Feltwad

[Scully]

19 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

With 77years of shooting and restoring Damascus barrel guns   most  likely before you were born  and  forgetting more about Damascus barrels than you will ever know   to be personal  by called ignorant because I do not agree  is a bit below the belt  

Feltwad

I don’t doubt you know a lot more and could teach me much about Damascus barrels ( I’m simply not that interested in them ) but your reluctance to learn from the experience of others and an obstinance to move on or admit you can still learn from others or that you’re obviously wrong, can’t be explained any other way. 
Steel shot CAN and IS safely shot through Damascus barrels, as others have proved and testified to, despite your claims to the contrary. 
 

[Feltwad]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

I don’t doubt you know a lot more and could teach me much about Damascus barrels ( I’m simply not that interested in them ) but your reluctance to learn from the experience of others and an obstinance to move on or admit you can still learn from others or that you’re obviously wrong, can’t be explained any other way. 
Steel shot CAN and IS safely shot through Damascus barrels, as others have proved and testified to, despite your claims to the contrary. 
 

Has you state  you are not interested  TYIPALLY   A shooters worst enemy is his fellow shooter that is one of the main reasons  why shooting is in the  position today.  SAD 

Feltwad

[Gas seal]

Hi my friend was told that bismuth pellets would mark the barrel, as l was making paper/ cardboard wads for my own nitro gun we made some for his black powder gun. The first one he decided not to put any splits in it. The shot stayed in the wad and hit the steel pattern board, with a smack. The next ones I cut four splits and it worked and gave a good pattern. I thought the wall of the wad was to thick, maybe he thought it would catch on fire. We did collect the used wads but I don’t know if he kept them. 

We were going to try ITX shot and l think it’s called nice shot after the steel test but never got round to it. 
the old guns can be kept on the license but I would find a way to shoot them. It doesn’t seem right not to use them.

[Scully]

18 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

Has you state  you are not interested  TYIPALLY   A shooters worst enemy is his fellow shooter that is one of the main reasons  why shooting is in the  position today.  SAD 

Feltwad

Seriously? You can’t blame other shooters for the demise of lead shot! Nor can you blame them for not wanting to shoot Damascus barrelled guns simply because you’re too stubborn to admit you CAN. 
From a collectors point of view I’d be very interested, but from the point of view of a practical shooter who gets through thousands of rounds a year, technology moves on.
No one is reading books by candle light anymore; we have electric now! 
Yes, I like my old guns from the 20th Century, but for driven game , bolting rabbits, decoying and trap shooting I seriously wouldn’t entertain a Damascus barrelled hammer gun. 
Despite what you claim, shooting for the average working man has never been in better health; it’s us your ‘fellow shooters’ who are trying to convince you that you don’t have to consign your guns to the furnace as you claimed it was all they are fit for with the pending lead ban. You can put that down to your own stubbornness. 
 

[Feltwad]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Seriously? You can’t blame other shooters for the demise of lead shot! Nor can you blame them for not wanting to shoot Damascus barrelled guns simply because you’re too stubborn to admit you CAN. 
From a collectors point of view I’d be very interested, but from the point of view of a practical shooter who gets through thousands of rounds a year, technology moves on.
No one is reading books by candle light anymore; we have electric now! 
Yes, I like my old guns from the 20th Century, but for driven game , bolting rabbits, decoying and trap shooting I seriously wouldn’t entertain a Damascus barrelled hammer gun. 
Despite what you claim, shooting for the average working man has never been in better health; it’s us your ‘fellow shooters’ who are trying to convince you that you don’t have to consign your guns to the furnace as you claimed it was all they are fit for with the pending lead ban. You can put that down to your own stubbornness. 
 

A black powder Damascus hammer gun for game  shooting driven game pheasant .partridge. grouse  shot for shot can kill has many  birds has a modern hammer gun something I have proven many times  Has for pest control I also have many 200 bird days with a muzzle loader.  so has far has  Damascus barrel  is concerned I have a good idea  after many decades to know what I am talking about.

Feltwad

[enfieldspares]

It is said that one of the celebrated shots of the late 20th Century preferred damascus barrels on even his modern ejector guns as on a long day of three hundred plus birds they gave less "ring" and so less gun headache. 

What is fairly certain is that one of the harms done by steel is that guns fed a steady diet of steel will, supposedly, go off the face quicker than guns firing the same weight steel pellet to achieve the same down range striking energy per pellet for a similar shot lead pellet weight and load..one ounce or whatever..in the two cartridges.

Edited Friday at 18:25 by enfieldspares

[Minky]

19 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

I do wish that people who do not know what the law says would stop posting incorrect information on P/W and then repeating the same incorrect information in another thread on P/W.

That is not at all what the law says. Not at all. And made clear in the Firearms Act s28.

s28 Special provisions about shot gun certificates.

(1)Subject to subsection (1A) below, a shot gun certificate shall be granted or, as the case may be, renewed by the chief officer of police if he is satisfied that the applicant can be permitted to possess a shot gun without danger to the public safety or to the peace.

(1A)No such certificate shall be granted or renewed if the chief officer of police—

(a)has reason to believe that the applicant is prohibited by this Act from possessing a shot gun; or

(b)is satisfied that the applicant does not have a good reason for possessing, purchasing or acquiring one.

(1B)For the purposes of paragraph (b) of subsection (1A) above an applicant shall, in particular, be regarded as having a good reason if the gun is intended to be used for sporting or competition purposes or for shooting vermin; and an application shall not be refused by virtue of that paragraph merely because the applicant intends neither to use the gun himself nor to lend it for anyone else to use.

The above is correct and I agree BUT this is not what I was told by a FEO..  "they make it up as they go along"  the feo told me directly that he needed to see that I had a USE FOR AND ACTIVELY USED THE GUNS ON MY CERT FOR HIM TO PASS THEM .  This is just a bullying process for people to give up weapons and certificates. But it appears to be a widespread practice. So best you start a crusade to stop this personal sort of interpretation of the law.  This isn't the first feo to tell me a load of nonsense.  A previous feo told me. AND OTHERS,  that if you reload fac ammunition that you are required to enter that ammunition that the individual had reloaded onto their certificate.   This feo had to be wheeled in and advised that his interpretation was not correct and that he was to cease telling people to do this.  He was swept out soon after this.

[Scully]

38 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

A black powder Damascus hammer gun for game  shooting driven game pheasant .partridge. grouse  shot for shot can kill has many  birds has a modern hammer gun something I have proven many times  Has for pest control I also have many 200 bird days with a muzzle loader.  so has far has  Damascus barrel  is concerned I have a good idea  after many decades to know what I am talking about.

Feltwad

Then get on with it instead of consigning it to the furnace! 🤷‍♂️

23 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

It is said that one of the celebrated shots of the late 20th Century preferred damascus barrels on even his modern ejector guns as on a long day of three hundred plus birds they gave less "ring" and so less gun headache. 

What is fairly certain is that one of the harms done by steel is that guns fed a steady diet of steel will, supposedly, go off the face quicker than guns firing the same weight steel pellet to achieve the same down range striking energy per pellet for a similar shot lead pellet weight and load..one ounce or whatever..in the two cartridges.

I’m assuming that as one who has berated others for posting misinformation, you can provide proof of your claims regarding guns ‘going off face’ when fed a constant diet of steel shot? 

[Gas seal]

Quote

 

In August 1888 Thomas De Grey shot 1070 grouse in one day. He used four guns fired 1510 cartridges , loaded by the local post master , and had 40 beaters. I read this in my friends book, the rooms in the house were full of grouse and mites. 
What would he make of the internet and discussing firing steel pellets through Damascus barrels . There must be a lot of old guns in good working order in the country and not wanted.