Trump and Zelensky Oval Office meeting

[12gauge82]

4 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Trump is loved over here, I feel like you media has lied to you.  Bush was not loved but voted for, Obama was not loved but voted for, but Trump is loved. 

Zelenskyy biggest problem is his controls a former combloc countries where corruption was normal part of business.  evEryone skims off the top.  

Trump is loved here too by a very large number of people, despite taking a dent with his recent behaviour towards Zelensky, I'm probably safe in saying he is far better liked than our own Prime minister. 

I was very greatful to Vance for bringing up the aparant assault on our freedom of speech. 

I agree with you regarding Ukraines corruption. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

Wait for it Holloway, I’m sure our American friend can find a brain washing snippet for that too.

I bet he has a snippet somewhere that proves Iraq had hidden weapons of mass destruction!

 

NoBodyImportant - whether you agree with him or not, he has provided details to back his view. You are merely sniping at him.

By the way, the USA went into Iraq hand in hand with the UK. Neither country comes out of it well.

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

I have a question I would like to ask you all.  
Pretend it’s 2014-2018

The facts: Ukraine has a population that is 29% only Russian speaking. Mostly in Donetsk and Luhansk

Sense the current regime took power they

Banned opposition political parties that 95% of the Russian speaking population voted for.

Banned Russia language on the radio and TV. 

Outlawed new papers translating in Russian

Banned Russian language in churches

banned Russian language in education and all government institutions 

Banned households from having more than 10 Russian language books.  
 

the Ukrainian constitution says they must provide services, education and respect any minorities over 10%. The Ukrainian constitution also says any province can gain independence with a 3/4 vote.  Donetsk and Luhansk voted 95-97% in favor of independence.  
 

This question has nothing to do with the Russian invasion, I legitimately want to know your opinion on this one subject.  so my question is this:

 Was the Ukrainian government in the right for liquidating these people?  
 

 

 

No absolutely not. 

But 2 wrongs don't make a right and starting a war that has destroyed over 1 million lives is not the correct response. 

[39TDS]

During the Covid days folk swallowed hook line and sinker everything they were told, most of which turned out to be completely false and often very manipulative.

A fair few of the recent comments on this thread have shown exactly the same mindset. It's very easy to fall for the line given to you but there isn't anything apart from yourselves that stops you looking into it all for yourself and coming to your own reasoned conclusion. Have a go at that rather than just swallowing the often false information fed to you.

I often fall for the same stuff myself but try to look at all angles and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Tbh I don't think USA (particularly Biden but Trump too), Zelensky or Europe are looking particularly angelic or even decent in all of this.

I have friends in both Russia and Ukraine and their versions are quite different than the picture our media paints for us. Don't forget that the media give you the version their owners decide they want you to hear (whichever media) and when have any of them been considered to be factual and accurate?

ps. I have enjoyed reading the views on the thread and in particular NBI's viewpoint and contributions, I have to say my opinions have changed from reading through it all.

Edited Monday at 23:34 by 39TDS
to add the ps

[NoBodyImportant]

42 minutes ago, holloway said:

Have we any verified figures on funds that the states have committed to Ukraine ? or are we going on figures that Trump has confirmed ? if so ……..well we know it might be inaccurate as it has been proved he couldn't lie straight in bed ,i put Putin and Trump neck and neck for false information .

 

The last 8 years has been media telling me Trump was lying only to find out later he was right.  

Edited Monday at 23:33 by NoBodyImportant

[NoBodyImportant]

31 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

No absolutely not. 

But 2 wrongs don't make a right and starting a war that has destroyed over 1 million lives is not the correct response. 

Who started the war?  Remember the war started years before Russia got involved.

[NoBodyImportant]

50 minutes ago, steve1066 said:

 

I bet he has a snippet somewhere that proves Iraq had hidden weapons of mass destruction!
 

 

I can’t go into much detail on this subject on this.  But I will say America wasn’t looking for chemical weapons. America knew exactly where they were.  My close companions  said the at the start of the invasion they had map to their locations.  They knew exactly how many trucks to bring to remove them.   But it was very secretive because if the weapons were secured we wouldn’t have a reason to be in Iraq.  More than a few servicemen told me this exact story.  They were not allowed to discuss it. Some leaks have come out but the official narrative is we spend 10 years looking for the weapons we secured ls in 48 hours.  

Edited Monday at 23:48 by NoBodyImportant

[12gauge82]

54 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Who started the war?  Remember the war started years before Russia got involved.

The country that crossed the others border with weapons. 

[NoBodyImportant]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

The country that crossed the others border with weapons. 

So when Donetsk and Luhansk was invaded by Ukrainian forces? 

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

So when Donetsk and Luhansk was invaded by Ukrainian forces? 

No the conflict in those areas started in 2014 after Russia invaded Crimea and pro Russian separatists declared independence from Ukraine in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, which led to conflict between Ukraine and the separative groups who were being propped up by Russia. 

[BRYAN3]

7 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

The country that crossed the others border with weapons. 

Yes NATO arming and training ukraine..   Putin could see that happening.

[NoBodyImportant]

5 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

No the conflict in those areas started in 2014 after Russia invaded Crimea and pro Russian separatists declared independence from Ukraine in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, which led to conflict between Ukraine and the separative groups who were being propped up by Russia. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=95-QItX3I5A

Edited Tuesday at 09:40 by NoBodyImportant

[NoBodyImportant]

[NoBodyImportant]

I think the west should simply oversee a vote.  Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk.  Every resident votes.  Those three provinces are overwhelmingly Russian speaking so I’m pretty sure I know how it will go but to put it to rest I think it should be voted on.  But have an outside neutral country oversee it. 

[janner]

I wondered at the time why farage (long time putin acolyte) and his wayward supporters were so against a european army when they were promoting brexit,

Now it has become abundantly clear.

Churchill must be spinning in his grave.

 

Edited Tuesday at 10:23 by janner

[semi-auto]

Another bouquet from Trump to Putin. He has paused all military aid for Ukraine. Putin has greeted this by saying that it is the best contribution to peace. From Putin's perspective. he would say this, as it means his troops can gain even more Ukrainian territory before 'peace' negotiations eventually begin.

[Rewulf]

12 hours ago, holloway said:

Have we any verified figures on funds that the states have committed to Ukraine ? or are we going on figures that Trump has confirmed ?

Who would best know these figures, CNN, or Trump and his advisors who have just stripped down all the corruption and money wasting/laundering in the federal budget ?
Trillions unaccounted for in the Pentagon.
Billions in intel and surveillance that the US cant even admit to, because it makes them fully complicit in attacks of Russia and its forces.
The clear laundering of billions from USAID.
The Biden families clear ties to Ukraine.
Why do you think Biden handed out so many pardons to people who havent even been investigated yet 😆

You need to take a step back, lose the bias, and look at things with a more critical eye.

12 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Your view is too simplistic and doesn't give Putin credit for his cunning. 

He was that cunning that he waited until Ukraine was ready to repel his invasion !
When he could have moved in very easily in 2014/15, when there were no javelins or Nlaws to decimate his tanks, no stingers to down his helos, and no battlefield intel provided by western air and satellites.

We will have to agree to disagree on this, but we agree on far more things than not.
But Ill say this, I have no time for Russia or Putin, you couldnt pay me to live there, but we have been lead to believe that Ukraine is some kind of shining light of democracy and gentleness, facing down an evil empire.
Its not, its just as bad as Russia, it used to have nukes pointed at your country, and fingers hovering over those buttons eagerly awaiting the order to kill millions in the blink of an eye, Ukrainian fingers.
And our fingers were doing the same.....

We have been born and bred to hate the Russian enemy, conditioned into believing they are an evil race intent on world domination, but the reality is, they are just like us, with rubbish leadership, and a desire to just live our lives in peace the best we can.
Governments NEED an enemy for us to hate, the enemies face and skin colour changes over time, but by and large they are usually not the enemy we are lead to believe they are.
Make your own mind up why they do this, why they create the need, I have my own theories, but all I can say is, theres a lot of people getting very rich off the back of this hatred.

[clangerman]

29 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

We have been born and bred to hate the Russian enemy, conditioned into believing they are an evil race intent on world domination, but the reality is, they are just like us, with rubbish leadership, and a desire to just live our lives in peace the best we can.
Governments NEED an enemy for us to hate, the enemies face and skin colour changes over time, but by and large they are usually not the enemy we are lead to believe they are.
Make your own mind up why they do this, why they create the need, I have my own theories, but all I can say is, theres a lot of people getting very rich off the back of this hatred.

that’s one of the best posts seen on here I always thought it was a case like donkeys they were just being fools but now think they ignore the above truth out of fear to admit it’s about keeping us under control and they secretly know it 

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, clangerman said:

that’s one of the best posts seen on here I always thought it was a case like donkeys they were just being fools but now think they ignore the above truth out of fear to admit it’s about keeping us under control and they secretly know it 

Its a hard thing to get out of, we all have a belief system that may modify over time, but its very hard to change its core values.
Its like finding 'God' - Your belief before was that he/she didnt exist.
Or like losing your faith in God - Everything you believed was a lie/impossible.

We were bought up to hate the USSR/Russia, and why not, we were taught to believe that given half a chance they would kill every last one of us in nuclear fire, before their tanks rolled over the wasteland and enslaved what was left of us.
The thing is, they were taught exactly the same thing about us, but we never considered that, as it conflicts with our belief system that they were always the aggressor.

All of this could have been avoided, but there was just too much money to be made in 'defence'
We need to break out of this mentality.

Russia invaded Ukraine because it believed it had to.
The west invested in defending Ukraine because we were told if we didnt, they wouldnt stop there.

The only winners here, are corporations that fuel this mindset.

[Rem260]

18 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

You are talking to someone who lives in the south and spent many summers on a reservation with his grandma.  The difference is that once the wars were won the killing stopped.  

As an American I have a soft spot in my heart for people gaining independence.  Our declaration of independence states that people have certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I fail to see how the wars against the first nations and the Confederate states fits in with those unalienable Rights. Unless it means that these rights only apply to those that Uncle Sam deems worthy.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Who would best know these figures, CNN, or Trump and his advisors who have just stripped down all the corruption and money wasting/laundering in the federal budget ?
Trillions unaccounted for in the Pentagon.
Billions in intel and surveillance that the US cant even admit to, because it makes them fully complicit in attacks of Russia and its forces.
The clear laundering of billions from USAID.
The Biden families clear ties to Ukraine.
Why do you think Biden handed out so many pardons to people who havent even been investigated yet 😆

You need to take a step back, lose the bias, and look at things with a more critical eye.

He was that cunning that he waited until Ukraine was ready to repel his invasion !
When he could have moved in very easily in 2014/15, when there were no javelins or Nlaws to decimate his tanks, no stingers to down his helos, and no battlefield intel provided by western air and satellites.

We will have to agree to disagree on this, but we agree on far more things than not.
But Ill say this, I have no time for Russia or Putin, you couldnt pay me to live there, but we have been lead to believe that Ukraine is some kind of shining light of democracy and gentleness, facing down an evil empire.
Its not, its just as bad as Russia, it used to have nukes pointed at your country, and fingers hovering over those buttons eagerly awaiting the order to kill millions in the blink of an eye, Ukrainian fingers.
And our fingers were doing the same.....

We have been born and bred to hate the Russian enemy, conditioned into believing they are an evil race intent on world domination, but the reality is, they are just like us, with rubbish leadership, and a desire to just live our lives in peace the best we can.
Governments NEED an enemy for us to hate, the enemies face and skin colour changes over time, but by and large they are usually not the enemy we are lead to believe they are.
Make your own mind up why they do this, why they create the need, I have my own theories, but all I can say is, theres a lot of people getting very rich off the back of this hatred.

I totally agree with much of what you say. I'm fully aware Ukraine is not utopia full of rainbows. It has serious problems with corruption and there have almost certainly been human rights violations. But to then equate that with Putins invasion being for anything other than Putins desire to strengthen Russia and make land grabs is equally ridiculous. 

At the bottom of all this Russia had no right to invade Ukraine and has caused incredible death with one of the most brutal wars since Ww2. 

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

As an American I have a soft spot in my heart for people gaining independence.  Our declaration of independence states that people have certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I fail to see how the wars against the first nations and the Confederate states fits in with those unalienable Rights. Unless it means that these rights only apply to those that Uncle Sam deems worthy.

Just to play devils advocate here, Britains colonial escapades around the same time of the genocides against first nations people make for some very grim reading.
Our recent 'adventures ' in Afghan and Iraq are also a worthy mention for body count alone.

 

11 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

At the bottom of all this Russia had no right to invade Ukraine and has caused incredible death with one of the most brutal wars since Ww2. 

Would it interest you to know that Ukraine killed 3500 of its own civilian citizens in Donbas BEFORE this war even started, mostly by artillery strikes on residential areas ?
We could say that Ukraine had no right to do this ?

The UK/US  went into Afghan and Iraq and killed or injured 100s of 1000s of civilians, did we have a right ?

I usually get called out for whataboutery at this point, but when diplomacy fails, war follows, and people die.
This has been the case for 5000 years, and isnt about to stop anytime soon.

The simple fact is, when WE do it, its liberation, when THEY do it, its illegal and wrong.
 

[Penelope]

7 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

This has been the case for 5000 years, and isnt about to stop anytime soon.

Way, way, way before that. Our closest relative loves a bit of war. All part of being a higher order primate.

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Its a hard thing to get out of, we all have a belief system that may modify over time, but its very hard to change its core values.
Its like finding 'God' - Your belief before was that he/she didnt exist.
Or like losing your faith in God - Everything you believed was a lie/impossible.

We were bought up to hate the USSR/Russia, and why not, we were taught to believe that given half a chance they would kill every last one of us in nuclear fire, before their tanks rolled over the wasteland and enslaved what was left of us.
The thing is, they were taught exactly the same thing about us, but we never considered that, as it conflicts with our belief system that they were always the aggressor.

All of this could have been avoided, but there was just too much money to be made in 'defence'
We need to break out of this mentality.

Russia invaded Ukraine because it believed it had to.
The west invested in defending Ukraine because we were told if we didnt, they wouldnt stop there.

The only winners here, are corporations that fuel this mindset.

your correct again but we have no excuse for such foolishness my education fits on a fag packet and still from a young age I managed to see this country like most is run by keeping us in fear and a constant struggle to pay your way one can only conclude our apathy is now sadly inbred 

[old man]

7 minutes ago, clangerman said:

your correct again but we have no excuse for such foolishness my education fits on a fag packet and still from a young age I managed to see this country like most is run by keeping us in fear and a constant struggle to pay your way one can only conclude our apathy is now sadly inbred 

Always about control, keeping the masses frightened and poor?