Trump and Zelensky Oval Office meeting

[Dave-G]

Seems Trump don't want to continue Bidens war with a slap down and reiterates his feelings Europe needs to look after its own patch.

[NoBodyImportant]

8 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Seems Trump don't want to continue Bidens war with a slap down and reiterates his feelings Europe needs to look after its own patch.

Especially when you have a foreign president saying things like America “needs to insure” or America “failed to stop” and America “must  do” America doesn’t have to do anything.   America will help, but we shouldn’t have to do it alone like it’s our responsibility.  

Edited 8 hours ago by NoBodyImportant

[welsh1]

Peace should not mean capitulation to an invader who has slaughtered huge amounts of your countrymen.

 

What a strange world we live in , today is the end of the Gulf war (PART 1) many countries acting together to throw out an invading force.

 

[Andy H]

1 hour ago, welsh1 said:

Peace should not mean capitulation to an invader who has slaughtered huge amounts of your countrymen.

 

What a strange world we live in , today is the end of the Gulf war (PART 1) many countries acting together to throw out an invading force.

 

Respect fellow veteran.

[Houseplant]

3 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Especially when you have a foreign president saying things like America “needs to insure” or America “failed to stop” and America “must  do” America doesn’t have to do anything.   America will help, but we shouldn’t have to do it alone like it’s our responsibility.  

The rest of the world gets it now. America first, or rather America only. It's the end of an era. No one can rely on Trump to fulfil NATO commitments or anything else. The world has changed. Europe needs to step up for its own security, but I doubt the dithering bureaucrats of the EU have what it takes. Don't look to the United Kingdom, it is much diminished in terms of military power and global influence.

[12gauge82]

6 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

I didn’t see any bullying, I saw an American president that refused to be demanded to do something.  For years Europe has looked to America to pick up the tab for military support, food security , research and development, economic stability.  And after so many years of doing it European nations now expect it as it’s Americas duty.  

Dig deeper, Putin invaded because nobody else stepped up to defend Donetsk and Luhansk from the Ukraine.  

With respect, I think you should reconsider. There's something called empathy, something Trump and Vance clearly lack. It is of course up to the USA how much if any aid or assistance they decide to give. But to berate Zelensky for fighting for his country lives and peoples survival for asking for help, help they were promised for giving up their nuclear weapons was a disgrace I've never witnessed on the world stage. 

You talk of America always picking up the tab. I think you need to look at history.

At the start of Ww2, the UK and it's empire went to war against Germany to prevent an evil regime spreading around the globe. Hitler had no intention of invading the UK and saw us as a potential allie. He knew he could never launch a successful invasion against us and yet we stood up and fought for world freedom anyway totally alone. The USA had no intentions of helping until they were attacked by the Japanese at pearl Harbour, they did sell us military equipment for which we paid a war debt that we only finished paying in 2006. The UK helped keep the world free, for no direct benefit to itself, lost its position as the most powerful country in the world (although the USA had obviously caught up), lost its empire, plunged us into debt and diminished our world standing, something we never recovered from. 

China is watching this and make no mistake they have their eyes on world domination. Just as the UK is a spent force, the USAs military might is projected to be overtaken by China in the not so distant future. A weakened west that is divided is a green light for China in the future. Ukraine is fighting for its own survival, but is by default also fighting for world stability. 

I posted earlier how much Trump impressed me recently, I hope he rows back from this recent event and offers Ukraine an apology. 

[NoBodyImportant]

1 hour ago, Houseplant said:

The rest of the world gets it now. America first, or rather America only. It's the end of an era. No one can rely on Trump to fulfil NATO commitments or anything else. The world has changed. Europe needs to step up for its own security, but I doubt the dithering bureaucrats of the EU have what it takes. Don't look to the United Kingdom, it is much diminished in terms of military power and global influence.

Not 100% true.  Even today Trump said he is 100% committed to NATO. Especially Poland.  Poland did exactly what was asked of it when Trump told them to prepare for Russian aggression during his first term.  The rest of the EU laughed at him.  Literally laughed when Trump warned them.  Told him we aren’t living in the Cold War era anymore.   I have been able to predict Trump very accurately. He is using this as a scare tactic to get Europe to realize that when the leader of NATO tells you to do something you need to be a good partner and do it.  That’s why we love Poland so much.  They never protest US missile installations, or our military presence.  If America asked for a new airbase in Poland right now Poland would say where do you want it and start clearing land.  If America asked for a spot in Germany they would protest or start asking for billions of dollars in rent and climate change studies. 

[12gauge82]

5 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Especially when you have a foreign president saying things like America “needs to insure” or America “failed to stop” and America “must  do” America doesn’t have to do anything.   America will help, but we shouldn’t have to do it alone like it’s our responsibility.  

Perhaps America should have thought about that before offering assurances for Ukraine if it gave up its nuclear weapons. 

I'm proud of the UK and our countries forefathers who gave their all and died for honouring our agreement with Poland despite the incredible damage it did to our country. It's sad to watch the USA turn away from that same challenge. 

5 hours ago, welsh1 said:

Peace should not mean capitulation to an invader who has slaughtered huge amounts of your countrymen.

 

What a strange world we live in , today is the end of the Gulf war (PART 1) many countries acting together to throw out an invading force.

 

👏👏👏Respect 🙏

[NoBodyImportant]

17 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

 

You talk of America always picking up the tab. I think you need to look at history.

At the start of Ww2, the UK and it's empire went to war against Germany to prevent an evil regime spreading around the globe. Hitler had no intention of invading the UK and saw us as a potential allie. He knew he could never launch a successful invasion against us and yet we stood up and fought for world freedom anyway totally alone. The USA had no intentions of helping until they were attacked by the Japanese at pearl Harbour, they did sell us military equipment for which we paid a war debt that we only finished paying in 2006. The UK helped keep the world free, for no direct benefit to itself, lost its position as the most powerful country in the world (although the USA had obviously caught up), lost its empire, plunged us into debt and diminished our world standing, something we never recovered from. 

China is watching this and make no mistake they have their eyes on world domination. Just as the UK is a spent force, the USAs military might is projected to be overtaken by China in the not so distant future. A weakened west that is divided is a green light for China in the future. Ukraine is fighting for its own survival, but is by default also fighting for world stability. 

I posted earlier how much Trump impressed me recently, I hope he rows back from this recent event and offers Ukraine an apology. 

Respect back to you.  But look at lend lease again.  Allied powers only payed  for what they kept after the war.  Any ship/plane/tank that was damaged America didn’t charge for.  Any bullet fired America didn’t charge for.  Any equipment you decide not to return after the war was sold to you at 10cent on the dollar of cost.  That’s what you finished paying for in 2006.  Even then payments  never asked for.  America funded the rebuild of Europe.   I remember all the resentment Americans got in 2006 from the last payment.  It was paraided if front of our faces like we don’t owe you anything now.  But we never mad you pay  for anything.  We just simply said pay us 10cent on the dollar for any ship/bullet/ jeep you want to keep 

Edited 1 hour ago by NoBodyImportant

[NoBodyImportant]

It just America isn’t as globalized as Europe.  Getting into WW1 was easy.  But 20 years later Americans didnt want to get into another “European war”.    It’s hard to discribe in a way where I don’t sound like an *** but I will try.  When I say America isn’t as globalized as Europe I don’t mean we don’t care, we do.  But I honestly couldn’t tell you who is the leader of the UK is at the moment .  I know you got King Charles but as far as real leaders with power I honestly don’t know.  Not that I see the UK as unimportant because they are, but I haven’t seen one news outlet even bring up your leaders in years.  I see stuff of Prince Harry and Kate in the tabloids but I honestly don’t think in recent memory I heard a thing  about your real world leadership.  Until recently I didn’t know who Macron in France was.  I only heard of him because of his talks with Trump.   I only know about the Ukraine because the world news was slow in 2014-16 when they started ethnic cleansing the Russians speaking population in Donetsk and Luhansk.  I worked with many Ukrainians at the time so I got involved politically because I was friends with them and they would talk about it at work.   But I think Europeans get so involved we America because between Hollywood, Nashville and Atlanta America controls the entertainment industry.  

[12gauge82]

37 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Respect back to you.  But look at lend lease again.  Allied powers only payed  for what they kept after the war.  Any ship/plane/tank that was damaged America didn’t charge for.  Any bullet fired America didn’t charge for.  Any equipment you decide not to return after the war was sold to you at 10cent on the dollar of cost.  That’s what you finished paying for in 2006.  Even then payments  never asked for.  America funded the rebuild of Europe.   I remember all the resentment Americans got in 2006 from the last payment.  It was paraided if front of our faces like we don’t owe you anything now.  But we never mad you pay  for anything.  We just simply said pay us 10cent on the dollar for any ship/bullet/ jeep you want to keep 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-American_loan

 

A more detailed overview. 

[NoBodyImportant]

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-American_loan

 

A more detailed overview. 

From you link (The loan was for US$3.75 billion (equivalent to $60.47 billion in 2024) at a low 2% interest rate; Canada loaned an additional US$1.9 billion (equivalent to $30.64 billion in 2024). The British economy in 1947 was hurt by a provision that called for convertibility into dollars of the wartime sterling balances the British had borrowed from India and others, but by 1948, the Marshall Plan included financial support that was not expected to be repaid. The entire loan was paid off in 2006, after it was extended six years.) 

You link just reiterated the point that I was making. The “not expecting repayment” was 13.3 billion or “150 billion in today’s currency”  UK was only expected to pay back the 3.75 billion in military spending.  The 13.3 billion in economic spending America never asked to be repaid.  Because after the war Americas economy was intact, many European nations had to start from scratch.  

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

It just America isn’t as globalized as Europe.  Getting into WW1 was easy.  But 20 years later Americans didnt want to get into another “European war”.    It’s hard to discribe in a way where I don’t sound like an *** but I will try.  When I say America isn’t as globalized as Europe I don’t mean we don’t care, we do.  But I honestly couldn’t tell you who is the leader of the UK is at the moment .  I know you got King Charles but as far as real leaders with power I honestly don’t know.  Not that I see the UK as unimportant because they are, but I haven’t seen one news outlet even bring up your leaders in years.  I see stuff of Prince Harry and Kate in the tabloids but I honestly don’t think in recent memory I heard a thing  about your real world leadership.  Until recently I didn’t know who Macron in France was.  I only heard of him because of his talks with Trump.   I only know about the Ukraine because the world news was slow in 2014-16 when they started ethnic cleansing the Russians speaking population in Donetsk and Luhansk.  I worked with many Ukrainians at the time so I got involved politically because I was friends with them and they would talk about it at work.   But I think Europeans get so involved we America because between Hollywood, Nashville and Atlanta America controls the entertainment industry.  

Trust me, the UK at the time felt the same, we were still in a terrible state from Ww1, a war that we probably rushed into too soon and the consequences was the UK probably left it too late to do something about Nazi Germany. But the point is, we stood up and were counted. 

The vast majority of the UK is positive to the USA, most of us here see you guys across the pond as our cousins who share our values of freedom, democracy and view of the world, we see our countries as deeply connected and we have followed and assisted the USA where we could, brave people like Welsh1 and others on here who took up arms to help you guys after the outrageous attacks on your country and it's people, we have no greater friends than the USA and feel more connected than the rest of Europe who are our direct neighbours. 

It's why we are upset to see a president that represents you all, apparently bully a desperate nation fighting for its survival. I hope Trump rows back from what he's said, I have a feeling it is his blunt attempts to solve a war in the same way he'd close a business deal. He's failed to remember this isn't money he's battering with, it's peoples lives and freedom. 

[NoBodyImportant]

Do you know why America rebuilt Europe, because we are allies.   Trump asked Europe to increase military spending, and to start weaning themselves off of Russian gas because he said Russian tanks would start rolling across Europe once Europe was dependent on Russian gas.  They all laughed at him, mocked him, poked fun at  the USA.  “Except Poland”. Poland understood that since we had an alliance that they would pull their share.  

[Houseplant]

52 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Not 100% true.  Even today Trump said he is 100% committed to NATO. Especially Poland.  Poland did exactly what was asked of it when Trump told them to prepare for Russian aggression during his first term.  The rest of the EU laughed at him.  Literally laughed when Trump warned them.  Told him we aren’t living in the Cold War era anymore.   I have been able to predict Trump very accurately. He is using this as a scare tactic to get Europe to realize that when the leader of NATO tells you to do something you need to be a good partner and do it.  That’s why we love Poland so much.  They never protest US missile installations, or our military presence.  If America asked for a new airbase in Poland right now Poland would say where do you want it and start clearing land.  If America asked for a spot in Germany they would protest or start asking for billions of dollars in rent and climate change studies. 

It's a matter of opinion and I respectfully disagree. As Henry Kissenger said "America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests". It may vary according administration, but I think that is particularly accurate right now.

As for the rest, I agree with the goal. Europe needs to sort itself out, but I don't agree with the methods. Scaring your allies is not the way.

 

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

From you link (The loan was for US$3.75 billion (equivalent to $60.47 billion in 2024) at a low 2% interest rate; Canada loaned an additional US$1.9 billion (equivalent to $30.64 billion in 2024). The British economy in 1947 was hurt by a provision that called for convertibility into dollars of the wartime sterling balances the British had borrowed from India and others, but by 1948, the Marshall Plan included financial support that was not expected to be repaid. The entire loan was paid off in 2006, after it was extended six years.) 

You link just reiterated the point that I was making. The “not expecting repayment” was 13.3 billion or “150 billion in today’s currency”  UK was only expected to pay back the 3.75 billion in military spending.  The 13.3 billion in economic spending America never asked to be repaid.  Because after the war Americas economy was intact, many European nations had to start from scratch.  

We were in a terrible state due to being in a war economy due to the conflict. We couldn't afford to feed our people and were on rations. The USA offered some financial assistance and a loan, while we paid in blood and became a shell of ourselves for world peace. The original point you made was Europe needs to stop relying on the USA and while I agree, some EU countries went 'neutral' while profiting from both sides, they are now some of the wealthiest gdp per capita in the world. The UK chose to do the right thing, despite the terrible consequences it knew it would face, for the benefit of everyone. 

Fast forwards to now and I and everyone I know is in agreement with Trump, that Europe needs to step up it's military. We should all be spending somewhere in the region of 5-7% gdp on military not 2.5%, or far less in the case of some other EU countries. 

4 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

Do you know why America rebuilt Europe, because we are allies.   Trump asked Europe to increase military spending, and to start weaning themselves off of Russian gas because he said Russian tanks would start rolling across Europe once Europe was dependent on Russian gas.  They all laughed at him, mocked him, poked fun at  the USA.  “Except Poland”. Poland understood that since we had an alliance that they would pull their share.  

I totally agree with this. He has impressed me and many others in recent times, he had a lot of support here. But yesterday was a step to far. 

[NoBodyImportant]

7 minutes ago, Houseplant said:

It's a matter of opinion and I respectfully disagree. As Henry Kissenger said "America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests". It may vary according administration, but I think that is particularly accurate right now.

As for the rest, I agree with the goal. Europe needs to sort itself out, but I don't agree with the methods. Scaring your allies is not the way.

 

as a friendly question,  what was your opinion when European governments laughed when Trump warned them of future Russian aggression?  Asked them to seek alternative gas from Canada?  Asked them to stop funding Russian war machine?  We said this was coming.  It’s not fair for me to pay for an insane amount of taxes for  military spending so someone in Germany doesn’t have to spend money on German military. 

[Houseplant]

17 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

as a friendly question,  what was your opinion when European governments laughed when Trump warned them of future Russian aggression?  Asked them to seek alternative gas from Canada?  Asked them to stop funding Russian war machine?  We said this was coming.  It’s not fair for me to pay for an insane amount of taxes for  military spending so someone in Germany doesn’t have to spend money on German military. 

They were utterly wrong. I've always thought this way. Europe has been weak since the Second World War.

[NoBodyImportant]

8 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

We were in a terrible state due to being in a war economy due to the conflict. We couldn't afford to feed our people and were on rations. The USA offered some financial assistance and a loan, while we paid in blood and became a shell of ourselves for world peace. The original point you made was Europe needs to stop relying on the USA and while I agree, some EU countries went 'neutral' while profiting from both sides, they are now some of the wealthiest gdp per capita in the world. The UK chose to do the right thing, despite the terrible consequences it knew it would face, for the benefit of everyone. 

Fast forwards to now and I and everyone I know is in agreement with Trump, that Europe needs to step up it's military. We should all be spending somewhere in the region of 5-7% gdp on military not 2.5%, or far less in the case of some other EU countries. 

I honestly understand why America is expected to help the world.  We are essentially 50 nations that pool their money together.  We like to talk about what America is failing to do but the conversation should be is what European nations are failing to do.  For 50 years America military umbrella has been in place.  I feel like the US has been a good ally.  So when America ask to expand missile intercept capability in Greenland and Denmark refuses, why should we help Denmark anymore?  When Trump tells Germany to ship in gas from Canada instead of Russian pipeline and gets mocked, why should America protect Germany.  Sometimes  you don’t need to actively help your allies, just don’t work against them.  What’s the point?  Germany is now buying gas from Canada, Europe is increasing military spending and America will put ballistic missile intercept installations in Greenland( one way or another). Everything that was asked for and rejected is now happening.  But how much easier would it have been to just increase spending, cut the pipeline to Russia, and allow us to put interceptors in Europe when Trump asked his first term.  

[NoBodyImportant]

15 minutes ago, Houseplant said:

They were utterly wrong. I've always thought this way. Europe has been weak since the Second World War.

Well I’m glad we agree to that.  I also hope you understand why America wants ballistic missiles interceptors in Greenland also.  We may come across as a bully but sometimes it needs to be.  Pretend you’re playing in the yard and your dad ask at you to get in the house.  He might not be bulling you he might see a wolf in the wood line.  You refuse to go in the house so he explains hey bud, there is a wolf over there and he might attack you. But you still refuse to go in the house.  So your dad smacks you in the back of the head.  And you go into the house.  Dad did that because you are family and he will have to pay the medical bills if you get hurt. Nor does he want to fight a wolf.    Now if you wasn’t family the Dad would have no right to force you into the house.  

Edited 24 minutes ago by NoBodyImportant

[Pushandpull]

The earlier post from Nobody Important re the American view of the wider world is significant. Cross the Channel and drive East - Eastern Poland (say Warsaw) can be reached in a long day's drive over mostly good roads. Next stop Ukraine. It's like living in maybe Minnesota and hearing of a war raging in New England, which would feel very close.

[12gauge82]

26 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

I honestly understand why America is expected to help the world.  We are essentially 50 nations that pool their money together.  We like to talk about what America is failing to do but the conversation should be is what European nations are failing to do.  For 50 years America military umbrella has been in place.  I feel like the US has been a good ally.  So when America ask to expand missile intercept capability in Greenland and Denmark refuses, why should we help Denmark anymore?  When Trump tells Germany to ship in gas from Canada instead of Russian pipeline and gets mocked, why should America protect Germany.  Sometimes  you don’t need to actively help your allies, just don’t work against them.  What’s the point?  Germany is now buying gas from Canada, Europe is increasing military spending and America will put ballistic missile intercept installations in Greenland( one way or another). Everything that was asked for and rejected is now happening.  But how much easier would it have been to just increase spending, cut the pipeline to Russia, and allow us to put interceptors in Europe when Trump asked his first term.  

Again I agree, we have a political party that is on the verge of gaining serious power and has made headway no other party has seen in 100 years. They have massive support and would agree with the vast majority of policies the USA under Trump has bought in. The UK while in my opinion not going far enough has met for the most part it's NATO responsibilitys of 2.5% gdp while other European nations have neglected that fact, Germany in particular. The political organisation the EU (which is not Europe) has destabilized Europe by allowing mass uncontrolled migration and an almost communist idioligy towards state control and protectionist resource pooling. The UK has been a strong counterbalance to that. 

The UK and USA are basically brothers in arms and have had Americas backs on matters of influence involving Europe although imo not as much as the population of the UK would like, we have been repeatedly ignored by our ruling parties neglecting their promises to those who voted them into power, (one of the reasons reform under Farage is gaining so much momentum, just like Trump did.) 

But while I agree with all you say on Europe including the UK not doing enough (I don't know when you say Europe you include the UK or not). Trumps words yesterday were out of order, there are other ways he could have got his point across.