Permission rant !!

[Andy_B]

Finally bit the bullet today and went round the local farms looking for some permission...first three i went to informed me they were part of the estate and i would need to get permission from the manager ...ok...so went about 5 miles up the road...next two farms....we are part of the estate too...******..!!!so off i drove another 5 miles....next farm....we also are part of THE ESTATE !!!....this estate must take in about 20 square miles...so went to my local clay shoot and did a bit of digging....1 guy has sole permission on the estate...also told i have no chance in getting anywhere near the land....kinda screws me up for my plans to get further on than plinking at targets....do you think i should just go visit the estate office tomorrow and brass neck it.. wouldnt be going after the deer just bunnies pigeons and possibly foxes...

[mikee]

andy, its well worth a visit to the farm manager, i would only ask about the pigeons and not mention foxes and rabbits as this implies possible night shooting, most farmers don't mind a stranger out shooting pigeons in day light but usually shy away from unknown people poking about at night, get your foot in the door first, when you meet him make it clear that you are a serious pigeon shooter and not interested in his pheasants etc, give him your full name and offer car reg # phone number etc to show that you're not some fly by night and offer to ring him before you go each time and say where you'll be on the estate and offer to call him after you've been with details of the bag etc, even if he says no try to leave your details as he may change his mind if he sees lots of pigeons about as he will know that 1 man cannot do any good in an area that big, be polite and professional and don't offer money to shoot. good luck

 

mikee

[dustyfox]

I notice you are from Renfrewshire about 10 miles from me. What is the name of the Estate? Or where were you looking?

 

Df

[Andy_B]

Cheers will do that tomorrow, and let you know how i get on ....if its a big ** or i have a big cheesy grin ...some really good looking bits of land on it...for hides, backstops etc etc seen tons of rabbits and millions of crows ...

 

Ps i have made up cards with all the details you mentioned and have BASC membership and insurance

Edited December 28, 2008 by Cranfield

[Andy_B]

Dusty i have pm'd you

[mikee]

andy, excuse my ignorance but where is renfrewshire?

 

mikee

[Andy_B]

Renfrewshire is about 10 miles outside glasgow city center to the west

[Cranfield]

I doubt that one person has sole permission to control the vermin on an Estate that may cover 20 miles.

I would definitely give them a knock and I agree that you should just ask about the pigeon/winged vermin clearing.

[Newsportshooter]

Be confident, honest and professional (a good deal of charm helps as well). Ask whether you can assist them with any vermin issues they may have (offer to control any issues they have including rats etc - this is a good in) - if possible quote certain issues they may be having for example pigeons hitting their rape crop, or obvious signs of rabbit inhabitation. Advise them of what kit you have and your capabilities (hopefully you can give good scope to a wide range of vermin issues), make sure you drop in that you are insured with a reputable organisation.

 

The best advice I can give you is KEEP TRYING & face to face contact is best, eventually you will find a friendly farmer who is willing to take you up on your offer.

 

Good luck

[seisobs]

I had exactly the same problem in the spring, it was only 3 farms though. I went to see the estate manager and he said shoot any pigeons you want but we are plagued with crows, shout as many of these as you can.

Go and see him. My motto is if you don't ask, you don't get.

Best of luck.

Jake.

[kev 1]

[Fatcatsplat]

Where i am, the same names keep on cropping up that have the permissions - They strangely have no appetite to allow others to play.

 

Very frustrating

[Mrs Sweepy]

On one of the permission sweepy shoots on their is about two others who shoot their too.(not all the time)

But when they do they give Sweepy a ring to let him know .

Which works well with Sweepy as we all know with pigeons if they are scared from one field they will always find the other.

Get in the right place then you have a good days shoot ahead of you.

So theirs no harm in seeing if they need the extra hand on the Estate.

See if you can find out who the person is that got the permission.You never know it might be someone you know.

xxxxSuzy

[cubix]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. If there is someone well established don't force it, perhaps contact them and offer help.

 

We get to hear about shooters looking for land around our place from our neighbours and it's often in the form of a warning about 'someone trying to muscle their way in - watch out for them'.

 

There are a lot of shooters where you are and it's a small world so if you still try to get the shooting once you know someone else has it then it can get you a bad reputation (whether deserved or not) and your name will precede you when you look for other chances.

[Newsportshooter]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. If there is someone well established don't force it, perhaps contact them and offer help.

 

We get to hear about shooters looking for land around our place from our neighbours and it's often in the form of a warning about 'someone trying to muscle their way in - watch out for them'.

 

There are a lot of shooters where you are and it's a small world so if you still try to get the shooting once you know someone else has it then it can get you a bad reputation (whether deserved or not) and your name will precede you when you look for other chances.

 

 

I agree to some extent in principle. However I would suggest it is very difficult to find any land where permission has not already been granted to at least one shooter. If your argument rings true there must be a fine balance between 'muscling ones way in' and legitimately enquiring. I have found that the majority of legitimate 'enquiries' I have made have been rejected. However the majority of rejections have been dealt with with much tact by the farmers - in contrast I have only met a small minority of landowners who have left me with the feeling that they would warn their neighbours of my 'attempt at muscling in'. In the majority I feel that farmers appreciate our assistance with their pest control (whilst also realising our reward in the form of sport) but also have to concern themselves with so many other matters of daily logistics that when they have a few shooters already on their land it becomes more of a chore than a bonus to accept a further shot. Our cause has been further hampered by previous irresponsible shooters (who have been granted permission resulting in a detriment to the farmer/land/stock etc) and also to the illegitimate 'enquirers' who have ulterior motive for being on the land in the first place.

 

My advice, as above, is make the enquiries - be humble and honest and accept a no when you get one, remembering to add a sincere 'well thank you for your time anyway' at the end. You never know that last sentence can break that barrier of concern in the landowners mind. Having your kit with you is another suggestion, to the potential permission granter, that you are there for a legitimate purpose (just don't get it all out before you have permission). I would also suggest taking a professional looking permission form (can be found on this forum) with you and edit it to include all of your details including home address, telephone number and BASC etc membership numbers - t show you are legitimate (although as Nickbeardo rightly suggested to me - keep the wordy bits to a minimum and make it reasonably simple to read. I'm not suggesting anything about the landowner here - merley that I would not wish to read through a legal type document on first meeting someone....)

 

Another bit of advice is don't turn up in a white transit or blue mondeo (they seem to be the vehicles of choice for the unscrupulous visitors)

 

Again good luck and keep trying - Remember most famers are very friendly (but rightly suspicious of visitors)

[POW!]

Good advice froim Cubix,

 

If the boot was on the other foot and you had been shooting there 109 years or so , Who knows your credentials??

 

Let me tell you what happens in the REAL world , a new guy manages to get shooting on a farm , because its a novelty , he,s never away , starts with vermin first , then he cant refuse a "Sitter" ,

 

You can soon Scare away almost all of the shooting , in a few weeks , so others who take turns are not pleased ,

I have seen this so many times , a new guy shoots it out in 12 months then off to pastures new ,

 

" THERE IS NOT AN UNLIMITED SOPPLY OF VERMIN OR GAME!!" , its about ballance , just like it is WAITING , patiently for your chance.

 

Sorry if this is NOT what tou want to hear , Permissions are EARNED , [ some times with luck]

 

I bet you may get to see the Estate manager , but to see the Landowner ??? ,

 

Give it a go , but, if you succeed , play it cool and dont rock any boats , , WE all know hoiw frustrating it is , especialy those who "BOAST" they shoot daily , or dont take every oportunity , or dont take others ,

 

To this I say ,"" How many Kicks in the Teeth do I need to learn the lesson" , , A lot is often out of the hands of Farmers as you have found out , A good Land Agent worth his SALT , will maximise the proffits , and shooting is often "Let Out" separately .

 

I have been at BOTH ends here , so just my advice , " Play it cool" everything comes to he who waits ?? Not always , but dont get angry as it will show on your visit .

 

Dont forget Farmers and landowners are Far more "In Touch" with reading Emotions an moods , cos thatis what bringing up stock is about , , I hope you gain the shooting you deserve POW!

[Andy_B]

Cheers fo all your help and advice...i popped up today for a visit...and the office is still all locked up...looks like they have a decent festive break...will need to leave it until the new year is through and try my luck again..due to having 6 and 4 year old kids i was looking for somewhere i could go in the 2 1/2 hours a day i get to myself...but looks like i may have to try further afield...so no chance of me shooting it out too quick !!

[POW!]

Andy ,With a sensible attitude like that I am sure you will find some shooting , Good Luck , and a Happy New Year ! POW!

[cubix]

It is a fine line as previous posters have said. Crossing it will make you look bad.

 

I would draw it between letting them know you are available, and actively pushing to crticise/replace some of what the current shooter does - the latter is what I would call muscling in. If there is a problem with the current shooter they will know.

 

Be decent and honest, and invites will come your way.

[Blackbart]

It is a fine line as previous posters have said. Crossing it will make you look bad.

 

I would draw it between letting them know you are available, and actively pushing to crticise/replace some of what the current shooter does - the latter is what I would call muscling in. If there is a problem with the current shooter they will know.

 

Be decent and honest, and invites will come your way.

 

I have just been offered some shooting,but i didnt critisize or muscle,infact the opposit happened.The farmer almost pleaded with me to come and shoot some foxes because the lad who does the shooting either doesnt come often enough or when he does he turned up with a shotgun to shoot the lamb thieving culprit.He told the farmer he wounded the fox and it wouldnt be back !They lost 20+ lambs last year he said and he aint happy.The land runs up to my current permission so it is ideal for me.No doubt the lad on the land will think i am stepping on his toes,and i sort of feel that i am but at the end of the day he aint keeping his side of the bargain.I have left it in the farmers hands saying if he gets problems with charlie and he cant sort them out i will come up and take a few out for him.

[cubix]

That's the way to do it. Success breeds success!

 

People are more happy they are taking less of a risk letting you shoot once their neighbours have tried you out! The neighbours where I shoot have dropped a general 'please shoot foxes on our side when you see them'. All I did was ask that if I shot anything and flopped, flew or staggered over the boundary after I had shot it would it be ok for me to retrieve it.

 

Now all I need to do is hit at least one of the pigeons I shoot at!

[richg]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned what is probably the easiest route on to any big shooting estate, and that is as a bush beater. I know it's a bit late for this season, but during the summer find the head keeper and ask if you can come beating on shoot days (don't mention pigeons unless he does) turn up smartly dressed (no jeans or cammo) even wear a tie, introduce your self, tell him where you live, be polite and he may say yes. Once you are a regular beater, and he won't expect you to attend every shoot, you will become part of the team, and as such you get feb roost shoots and hare shooting invites, and of course pigeon decoying. Don't think that one or two guys have it all sewn up, there's always room for one more. And of course the head keeper will be well known to other keepers and farmers, so you can mention him when asking for permission on other farms. Trust me, it works, it's called networking, it can be hard work but it works, and bush beating is great fun. Pigeon shooters tend to guard their permission jealously but will soon warm to a fellow enthusiast, and as long as you abide by the rules you will have shooting for many years. Good Luck.

[Nial]

due to having 6 and 4 year old kids

 

 

Andy, I'd turn up with the kids seats in the car, it'll make you look like less of a risk and

more sensible. You probably also know to dress sensibly.

 

The BASC have a leaflet on their site somewhere which outlines the 3rd party insurance cover

that BASC membership brings, I've used it with good effect. (It's mentioned in the

'cheaper' shooting article in the latest BASC mag but I can't find it on the web site,

a PM to David_BASC might help).

 

Good luck,

 

 

Nial.

[Andy_B]

Been in contact with the factors of the estate yesterday...." no thanks we dont need any help" could you possibly put me in touch with shoot masters to offer my beating services "no i could not " finally ,would you happen to know of any other land in my surrounding area that might require some assistance..." no its all sewin up am afraid" ...oh well thanks very much for all your help and again i am sorry to bother you...phone down .

[richg]

Hi,

Sorry to hear you got a knock back on the beating front, but there are some basics to improving your chances, and i speak from many years experience.

1. Forget factors, managers, forman, even under keepers, the only man to speak to is the head keeper, find out his name.

2.Forget the phone. You must ask him face to face, so he can see who you are and what you look like. It's the only way he has to form an opinion of you, (first impressions count) and by knowing his name you can ask for him by name, it gives you a sycological advantage, also you want to have a patter ready in your mind so you can give him as much information as possible before he says anything, (be prepared)

3. Be bold, when you arrive, walk up to him with your hand outstreached and say are you John Smith, (shake his hand) Straight away you have him at a disadvantage, then tell him who you are, where you live, and why you are calling. What you have to do is break the ice quickly, and get him to realise that you are genuine and not a ***** casing the joint (All keepers are suspicious of strangers)

4. He may say yes, he may say maybe, or he may say no. in any event have a card or something with your name, address and phone number to hand him with BEATER in big letters at the top.

5. If everything fails and he says no chance, you know you gave it your best shot, and you have to accept defeat. Nothing lost nothing gained.

 

I have refined my approach and my patter over many years and it works for me. Though not every time, but nine times out of ten it does.

The key is do not give up. Good Luck.