GJUK Posted February 8, 2009 Report Share Posted February 8, 2009 (edited) Please can the farmers on this forum/people 'in the know' tell me what the 'job title/role' the following person has please and if this person can grant rights to shoot on land. Background. We've been offered some shooting on a large 300 acre bit of land, lamping rabbits. The person that has offered this to us Farms the land on behalf of the land owner. This person (person A) does not own the land. Person A does not rent the land. Person A does 'jobs on the land', charging the work carried out to the land owner (Person B ). Person A has been doing this for 3 years now. In this time Person A (a very credible person) has never met Person B. Person B seems to have a very hands off approach to things. So. Can Person A give permission legally for someone to be on and shoot this land? Thanks, J Edited February 8, 2009 by GJUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Sounds to me like person (A) is the farmer who is responsible for running the farm and producing the crop. He'd be the guy that that the owner would rather decide who has access to the land for vermin control. We recently spoke to a land owner about rabbit control, he left the decision to the person farming the land on his behalf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 It's a contract farming agreement. Liability for vermin control varies between each agreement, but typically lies with the contractor (Person A). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJUK Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Thank you. I phoned the Firearms dept about it this morning. They have no idea what to suggest either. They're going to look in to it further and get back to me. :-/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerseaDavid Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 It might pay you to go and see the owner of the land anyway just so he knows who you are and he is happy for you to shoot his land. Nut I think Baldrick is right in saying it is a contract agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJUK Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) Well I agree. I'd much rather do it with the land owner. But if person A has never met the person she does the work for (person B ). I'm probably not going to be able to find that easy, if indeed he even wants to see me. Its a tricky one. There appears to be no definite answer to the 'problem'. My only fear is that the police will now say "no, person A cannot give you rights to shoot the land" because it is the easy answer. I'm also mindful of wasting both person A's time. And the time of the police. I do however want to be on the 'right side' of the law. Thanks for the replies. J Edited February 9, 2009 by GJUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 My farmer friend has the same arrangement as this ,but on 1000 acres . My farmer friend has asked me to control the deer and vermin on this 1000 acres with the blessing of the land owner . I made it a point to contact the land owner and had a chat with him , a very nice man . As i have an open ticket for rim fire and .308 i dont need to involve the local constabulary . If the landowner is contactable i advise a quick phone call or face to face meeting just to introduce your self . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 But if person A has never met the person she does the work for (person B ). I'm probably not going to be able to find that easy, if indeed he even wants to see me. Regardless if they know each other or not. You should speak to the actual land owner before shooting on their land. Every farmer will want to know who is on their land and I bet you my life they wont be happy if they have to meet you whilst you have a gun in hand stood in the middle of a field they don't want you to be shooting in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 It all depends on the terms of the agreement A has with B, it's likely A has been granted rights to control pest species and is entitled to let people onto the land to control the pests. A question - Why did you phone the Firearms Dept over this, it's nothing whatsoever to do with them, as they can't possibly be expected to know who owns / farms every field in their area..?? Give 'em a break, they're not there to act as an information centre but to administer the laws on Firearms, ease up or you'll acquire a bit of a reputation for yourself. Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 ease up or you'll acquire a bit of a reputation for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJUK Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 A question - Why did you phone the Firearms Dept over this, it's nothing whatsoever to do with them, as they can't possibly be expected to know who owns / farms every field in their area..?? They were more than happy to help. I mean afterall it's this department that police the use of firarms in the area. So they're best placed to answer my question. Give 'em a break, they're not there to act as an information centre but to administer the laws on Firearms, ease up or you'll acquire a bit of a reputation for yourself. No I'm okay thanks. I'll continue asking them questions. I'm sure they'd let me know if they had an issue with me asking questions and they were more than happy to help me. It's a sensible enquiry, unlike your comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) Give 'em a break, they're not there to act as an information centre but to administer the laws on Firearms, ease up or you'll acquire a bit of a reputation for yourself. The damage might have been done, evidentially. It's a sensible enquiry, unlike your comment. I would never turn my nose up at any advice Cat has to give to me. He has far far more experience than you do and it would be stupid to not listen to him. Your local firearms department isn't a 100 person call centre. There'll be one or two people working there and they'll not forget who's been ringing and you will pick up a name for yourself quite easily if you keep asking them to do things which are out of their usual tasks. If you have a FAC, it is acceptable to ring up to ask if land is signed off so you can shoot on a closed ticket. Not to check who owns farms and if you legally can shoot there. Edited February 9, 2009 by harfordwmj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJUK Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 I see your point. But I've contacted them three times since having my ticket. I've probably taken up about 20 minutes of their time. I'll just guess the answers from now on... After all, asking on here ****** people off as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I'll just guess the answers from now on... After all, asking on here ****** people off as well. It doesn't **** me off. You've said that there is an absentee landowner. If the landowner lives at the other end of the country, or on another continent, he/she will employ a land agent (me) to deal with day-to-day management of the land. Person A will know exactly who this monkey in the middle is. You can then harrass said monkey about obtaining Person B's consent. As Cat and I have already said, there's no consistency between these situations. You definitely need Person A's consent to shoot pest species; you may need Person B's consent additionally. You certainly need Person B's consent if you wish to shoot deer or game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 In fairness to GJUK, this is not a situation that you would expect to come across (or at least I wouldn't) and the general assumption would be that the person who works the land owns or leases it. In this case, as Baldrick classed them, they are a 'contract farmer' and the crops they farm there are not theirs but the owners. Now it would make sense that as they work the crops they would be the person who could give permission for vermin control as it is pests only, but the last thing any of us would want is for someone to be out shooting in the belief that they are entitled to do so and the time that they find out they aren't is when the police turn up! I share the permission with GJUK and all we are after on this is confirmation of who should be asked. The contract farmer seems to be working on the principal that their permission is enough, but they were also bemused by us saying that land that they have an FAC for would need to be assessed for us to use FAC on so it is entirely possible that they are not aware of the proceedure for this. Now we do not want to be bothering the landowner if it is not necessary, and do not wish to demand that the contract farmer contacts them, taking up both of their time if that is not necessary either, hence we are trying to find out how a situation like this works before we go down this route and I think that asking the people who are likely to know the rules (i.e the members on here and the local firearms team) is the sensible way to go as long as the answers provided mean we are shooting within the law, which is all we are trying to do at the end of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenhunter Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I think I would have asked BASC as first port of call. I can see you are a member 955i and they are there to help with this type of thing. As for being cautious, I think you are absolutely right to be so. If A was renting they would know from their agreement if they owned the shooting rights or not but as for 'contract' farming I am inclined to think that the shooting rights remain with the landowner. Hope you get it sorted. I, for one, will be interested to know the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I think I would have asked BASC as first port of call. I can see you are a member 955i and they are there to help with this type of thing. BASC have been contacted by GJUK but as far as I know there has not been a reply so far. If nothing else, this thread will serve as a bit of information for anyone else finding themselves in this confusing situation and that can't be a bad thing Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 955 it is entirely possible that if they use an FAC on it that it is already cleared for such. That is the question to ask your FEO, This situation is increasingly common as people use large contractors to farm their land. Obviously it varies farm to farm how it is written out but isn't that much different to a tennant farmer giving you permission as he isn't the landowner. In this case get written permission from the contractor / land agent detailing that he has the right to give permission for vermin control over that land and just get on and do it. If you kick up too much fuss then odds are they will just ask someone else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 The damage might have been done, evidentially. Aye, it would be terrible to get a reputation of someone who wants to make sure they're shooting within the law before they head out. Nial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 I see your point. But I've contacted them three times since having my ticket. I've probably taken up about 20 minutes of their time. I'll just guess the answers from now on... After all, asking on here ****** people off as well. Well, perhaps I'll phone them first thing in the morning to see if they can tell me which horse is going to win the 2.30 at Uttoxeter, but the fact is, they won't know, the same as they won't know the answer to your question, because they don't know every arrangement each individual landowner has with his tenants, nor should they know, because it's none of their business. Perhaps you ought to think these things through a bit more before reaching for the phone..?? You've been offered good advice a number of times on this forum, but if it doesn't quite fit with what you've already decided is the correct answer, you go off in a huff, why's that..?? Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJUK Posted February 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Well, perhaps I'll phone them first thing in the morning to see if they can tell me which horse is going to win the 2.30 at Uttoxeter, Well it sounds like something you'd do. but the fact is, they won't know, the same as they won't know the answer to your question, because they don't know every arrangement each individual landowner has with his tenants, nor should they know, because it's none of their business. Well the fact is you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You're being a ****. Perhaps you ought to think these things through a bit more before reaching for the phone..?? Again. Why the **** would the police know the answer, with regards to a question, about somthing they police! You've been offered good advice a number of times on this forum, but if it doesn't quite fit with what you've already decided is the correct answer, you go off in a huff, why's that..?? Cat. Most of the members on here offer their opinion. Some offer solid advice. Most don't though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 If someone gives me (written) permission and they look like a farmer I'd guess they wouldn't be foolish enough to put their name to it if they wern't in a position to do so. Verbal authority would be a different ball game - but your FEO will be establishing permission exists if they have to clear the land for semi open ticket holders, or if you are using it as a good reason to acquire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundowner Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 the land I am shooting on has abviously a farmer, a contractor as well as a syndicate on it. Every single one of these ppl knows me and are (more or less) happy with me doing pigeons and rabbits ! If I was you I'd talk to everybody concerned ................ there is always the issue of who still has the shooting rights? Contractor has a say in vermin control, but, if they rear pheasants (even informally) then it may well be the farmer who has the "overall" shooting right (unless he sold them) ! so, now you must be definately confused Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Well the fact is you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You're being a ****. (/quote] No, I'm trying to offer you some sensible advice, and avoid you becoming the laughing stock of your local FEO department, when you phone them up and expect them to know who owns / farms a particular field out of many thousands in their area. It ain't rocket science pal, it's common sense, just give 'em a break....please..?? Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 You could do a lot worse than to sit down and listen to what the likes of Cat have to say.. it's sound advice from someone who has been shooting both clay & game more times than you've had hot dinners. Sadly (or not) though I feel the damage is already done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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