Where have all the pigeons gone?

[Highlander]

If all the estimates about the millions of Woodpigeons that inhabit these shores are correct then shooting large bags shouldn’t be having an adverse effect BUT who knows what the (Woodpigeon) population really is. When was the last survey? How do they count them? Remember the plight of the (now extinct) American Passenger Pigeon! Everyone thought they could keep taking huge (many millions by all accounts) annual bags until they died out and then the theory was that they could/would only breed in vast numbers, when those numbers fell below a certain level the poor old Passenger Pigeon couldn’t/wouldn’t breed and they eventually died out.

 

The general consensus on this forum appears to be that the numbers of Woodpigeon are down (worrying when we who shoot should be the ones to know) across the country so do we have a healthy population or not? We shouldn’t be jumping to conclusions but perhaps someone should be taking a long hard serious scientific look at the problem. If we simply go on as we are we’re in danger of ‘shooting in the dark’.

 

If we shoot the bird because it’s an agri pest (and we do, don’t we?) then we should keep up the good work and if it dies out or it’s numbers become insignificant then that’ll be good news for the farmers and prove the worth of the matter. However I suspect (and this applies just as much to professional shooters) we shoot first and foremost because we enjoy the sport, then we have a duty of care to our quarry. Only that might in itself negate any arguments against a ban.

 

We do have to justify ourselves, whether we like it or not, to the non-shooting fraternity so let it be on the basis of sound argument and not conjecture or personal opinion.

 

Either way if any of you out there have sons and daughters who might be tempted to get into shooting as a career you might want to persuade them to go on the stage instead!

[Guest flightline]

We shoot under the provisions of an open general licence which is about pest control; nothing to do with sport or enjoyment (though of course we do). So it`s a great British compromise. Start a voluntary (say 3 months`) ban and the cat`s out of the bag-we do it for fun.

It`s traditional at this time of year to notice a decline in pigeons and calls for a close season follow. The birds subsequently make an apparently divinely-inspired reappearance.

[Axel]

Deako,

 

We choose not to take bookings throughout the summer (May-July) although we still protect the veg plants when needed.

 

I believe the DEFRA carry on that happened earlier this spring was trying to highlight the fact that crop protection is ok, IF it is direct crop protection.

Be it veg plants, spring Rape, blown wheat/Barley etc. If the birds are doing damage then go ahead and shoot them.

 

I can't see a close season being introduced simply because too much damage is done by the woodpigeon during the summer months, I've seen plenty of it!!!!!!

 

the pigeons are still there, all 10 million of them!

They just move around like a wild bird will. We've had 100+ bags on farms in years gone by and not shot another bird on those farm again. On the other hand we get birds appearing on farms that rarely get bother until the crop suits the birds.

 

Maybe things are different in England but up here in the last 10 years i can count on one hand the number of times I've been out and seen another pigeon shooter out in the same area!

We even get farmers phoning us up asking if we would be interested in shooting their pigeons as they've heard about us from farming friends who's land we already shoot!!!!

 

Guides get the blame no matter what they do.

 

I remember two years ago when I was hearing about the goose guide getting all the blame for taking up all the quality goose ground in Scotland.

I was shooting the Tay all week with a friend of mine from Kent who I've shot with since I was 15. There was about 2000 geese heading out each morning to the same grass fields about 2 miles in from the shore. By the end of the week we went and asked the farmer if it was possible to have a go for them, his responce was "I didn't know people still shot geese!"  and let us on without a problem!!! The geese still hit those field every years since. Next to one of the most heavily shot goose estuarys in the country.

 

Mark.

You're so lucky. You cant go out in this area (Cambs), without falling over other pigeon shooters!! I first shot pigeons in the 60's and it was bliss compared to now. The guns and the shells were much more expensive and our wages were lower but there werent many others about shooting pigeons. On the farms I shoot now (5) there are at least 3/4 others who also have permission, which is great for a chat but not so clever for finding a shootable field. In terms of pigeon numbers, I think they are down a bit. I dont know why but it think it stands to reason that if there are firms going at it 52 weeks of the year, all getting large numbers of pigeons, then it must knock the numbers down eventually surely? Society, or should I say the media and the tame politicians are generally anti-gun, so I fear we are in for a rough few years in terms of getting hammered!! Axel.

Edited May 16, 2005 by Axel

[jim_whitson]

Surely the whole point of shooting an agricultural pest is to reduce its numbers? If pigeon numbers really are declining, then shooters ought to pat themselves on the back... Of course we don't want to see pigeon totally disappear, but that's really only a selfish impulse; the point of shooting them is to get rid of the *******! Unlike for example goose shooting, where one only takes a sustainable harvest of fowl, surely vermin shooting ought to aim at population reduction?

[webber]

Weve debated the issue of a closed season for wood pigeon a few time previously on PW. I can only speak for my own area, but I have not noticed any drop in numbers, possibly the opposite. My problem is getting at the birds to shoot.

 

The small syndicate to which I belong, only shoots the pigeon at roost time during February. This is I believe also the case with many other shoots. The woods therefore effectiveley become a haven for 11 months of the year.

 

There are also vast tracts of land to which shooting is denied, and therefore havens are created.

 

Spring drilling was once a bonanza time for pigeon shooters, but developments in seed drilling technology and equipment waste very little seed, and therefore the chance to shoot is reduced.

 

Hungry pigeon do batter the winter rape, but do prefer other foods. Most of my pigeon shooting is conducted during the winter months. Once the spring comes, the rape grows like a rocket, and pigeon soon find other alternatives.

 

I grasp the chance to shoot over wind laid wheat, barley etc, and all the farmers on whos land I have permission aknowledge the damage that pigeon can do at this vulnerable time.

 

I have always enjoyed harvest time shoots the best, you can get the 4x4 onto the field set up and enjoy some good sport.

 

As an overview I feel that the pigeon already benefits from a virtual closed season due to crops and access. Its not practical for me to roost shoot on late evenings, but I always ensure that I respond to a call from any of my farmers, even if hes seen a couple of pigeon on his brussels and multiplied the number by 100, it does no harm to show willing.

 

Maybe the professional guides need to consider bag limits for their clients, and mega red letter days be frowned upon rather than applauded. We do shoot a pest species, with the aim of controling its numbers; it is not our aim to exterminate, regardless of what some of our farmer friends may desire.

 

webber

[Teal]

I agree with many of the sentiments expressed, by Lazza, Cranfield, Webber etc... There are definitely many safe havens. Essentially we are the pigeons only real predator (hawks and corvids must have only minor influence). I think the pigeon will continue to do extremely well despite shooting pressure - provided there is sufficient foodstuffs for them to eat. Increasing farm efficiency could be the controller on pigeon numbers in my opinion. Harvests and drillings now have very little wastage.

 

There was a survey done which showed that in the 70s 80s pigeon shooting made no difference to pigeon populations and that the constrainer was the harsh winters. Our winters are not so harsh any more- there used to be a huge dieoff and I think any increase in shooting pressure would be more than compensated by the previous winter die offs we had. Provided pigeons have abundant food their populations will continue to increase (and that is what the RSPB) reckon has been happening when I last checked - just before the introduction of the pigeon magnet - 1998 I believe. They may have updated their figures and that would make interesting reading.

[G.I. countrysports U.K. GARY]

As a full time professional guide shooting a great deal of woodpigeons every year, I would like to add a few valid points to this interesting debate...

 

1. Woodpigeon numbers are not down, in fact, exactly the opposite. The overall population of Woodies has continued to grow since 1975.

 

2. The majority of Woodpigeons do not breed until mid July - mid September with only 30% of the population breeding outside those months.

 

...WHEN SHOULD WE HAVE THIS CLOSED SEASON...

 

3. The whole country has experienced a very difficult spring with regard to numbers of birds shot. Mainly down to the weather patterns that we have had. The birds are still there, we just don't see them all of the time.

 

4. Bag limits are a great idea, however, they tend to be forgotten about just as soon as the limit is reached.

 

5. Pigeon Guides/operations shooting with their clients wouldn't account for 10% of the numbers of Woodpigeons shot yearly in this country. As always, we need to blame someone...

 

6. The Woodpigeon is classified a PEST species, not a gamebird. Maybe we need to have the bird re-classified.

 

THE SHOOTING OF WOODPIGEONS IS PRETTY MUCH SELF REGULATING, THE OVERALL AVERAGE SHOOTING DAY PER MAN IS NOT THAT MANY BIRDS, EVEN FOR THE GUIDES.

 

DON'T FIX WHAT ISN'T BROKE

 

I WOULD BE THE FIRST ONE TO PACK IN IF I THOUGHT I WAS HAVING AN IMPACT ON THE OVERALL NUMBERS OF WOODPIGEONS IN MY AREA, NEVER MIND THE ENTIRE COUNTRY....

 

All the very best

 

Gary

[Guest flightline]

If guides were having a long term effect on numbers then their bookings would drop off and the birds would make a comeback-a form of self regulation. It`s obvious they (and other effective shooters) have a temporary effect in a local area otherwise what`s crop protection about?

[Highlander]

1. Woodpigeon numbers are not down, in fact, exactly the opposite.  The overall population of Woodies has continued to grow since 1975.

Gary from GI

 

Agree entirely with your comments and have no arguement with your knowledge. You earn a living from this then you should have some realistic answers BUT (and this is curiosity not an arguement) how do you or anyone else for that matter know?

 

Is this simply your own field observation or a scientific fact? How does anyone know. How does anyone get anywhere near an accurate count? I've another question too...why don't we see many nests when out in the field, a few yes but nowhere near the numbers for what is claimed to be millions of breeding pairs?

 

As I said not a disagreement with your comment simply some questions I'd be interested in answers to.

[Cranfield]

Its good to see you posting again Gary, I for one have missed your always pertinent comments.

 

 

Highlander, unless you go into the woods deliberately looking for pigeons nests, they are not always the easiest things to see, especially with the trees in full leaf.

I have found them in tree forks, almost at the tips of branches, nests as big as squirrels drays and others made out of a handful of sticks, some in the tops of trees and also in low hedgerows.

In my garden I have two nests in old ivy covered willow trees, they are so deep in the ivy, only the birds constant attention allowed me to find them.

[Country Boy]

Great debate.

Don't worry guys, clearly we are in the midst of a natural close season, it's now't new - if they ain't there you can't shoot 'em.

Just take the claims of the so-called 'guides' with a pinch of lead, I know of several people extremely disappointed with certain outfits who have not been able to find the birds for them on the day. Its all about money money money, if they said our clients shoot less than 15 birds a day they would not be able to sell it, same with the magazines - a 200 bird day story sells more copies next month, and as for all the decoying paraphernalia traders - they are only decoying you guys.

The wood pigeon is alive and very well in his natural wooded home be patient and await the opportunity when he ventures out once again!

[Highlander]

"... real countrymen don't wear camo - they just blend in"

 

is that blend in quietly??? Might have hurt the feeelin's of a few people on here but good comments. Give it a few more weeks and just watch the posts then about the wonderful bags. That is if everyones got time in between their shooting to post. The birds were here in pretty good numbers during the winter so they'll be back once they've had their fill on their european hols.

 

Still haven't had an answer about the nests...I know especially at this time of year with all the foliage about that they're difficult to see but why don't we ever see hundreds/thousands when there are supposedly millions of them about?

[Fisherman Mike]

Being a member of the BTO I have access to census information ( which infact anyone can access BTO ) and can confirm that Pigeon numbers are up anually over the last 30 or so years.

 

However as I have said before I firmly believe that like gulls they are adapting to a different environment and climate.

 

On subject of nest sites, it is indeed difficult to locate a woodpigeons nest and thats precisely what the bird wants. However in winter when the foliage has gone they can be readily identified..

 

FM.

[Cranfield]

Still haven't had an answer about the nests

 

Highlander, look about two posts before your last post.

[Highlander]

You missed my point...I know it's not easy to find the nests even when you are looking for them. It's the numbers. If we have millions of breeding pairs where do they all nest. We see vast flocks in the winter then almost nothing for a while so where do they all go to and where are those vast numbers of nests?

 

By the way I do have a pair nesting in one of the barns here. Isn't that a bit unusual for woodies?

[kdubya]

highlander get your self to my place of WORK an industrial site! no trees! we have approx 50 pairs nesting they will nest ANYWHERE? gantries, cable trays, above roller shutter doors anywhere that rain cant get them! they use wire, swarf anything to make their token gesture of a nest? we have one pair regularly nest on a dam gate!! that gets lowered into the sea often have to pick up the nest with young and move it to the gate thats not going in(they are a pair) doesn't deter the birds at all

oh and for the last 2 years a pair have nested in next doors garden, in fact LOADS in the gardens now, never used to see them? it was a prize trophy as a kid to find a woodies nest?

I shot a LOT of birds over the winter in truth all I did was keep them moving the size of flocks never seemed to reduce!

cheers Keith

[Cranfield]

I know it's not easy to find the nests even when you are looking for them

 

Highlander, you are answering your own question.

The nests are everywhere, they are just hard to find.

Old buildings on Army Ranges near where I go fishing, are full of nests, despite all the shooting and disturbance.

Resourceful birds are wood pigeons.

[M ROBSON]

We've had a pair nest in the holly tree at front of my dads house for several years now, it's impossible to see the nest though.

[Topgunners]

And the pigeons are not over here in holland, either.

[Topgunners]

whoops .I tell a lie.

 

My bro says there are thousands over there at the moment.

 

[ROB REYNOLDS UK]

now they say there is about 20 million pigeons in the uk at any one time ,now thats a lot of birds and they can breed up to 3 or four times a year so if it was not for the likes of us lot there would soon be 50 million pigeons doing damage to farm crops all round the uk .fact pigeons are the number one pest for farmers ...fact there are more pigeons now than ever before down to the winter crops like rape ect to feed them over the winter months ..fact farmers dont want the pigeons on there crops and who can blame them ..fact im going out this saturday come rain or shine and try and get that 20 million down abit dont worry be happy

[Millomite]

I think the time has come for a voluntary closed season on pigeons perhaps for two months during the summer. Every day, I speak to people from all over the country and they all say the same thing: numbers ARE down.

 

Some professional outfits around the Oxfordshire area are claiming to shoot up to 25,000 birds a year. Sorry, but thats just not sustainable and if we don't get a grip of things ourselves, I'm certain legislation will follow within three years.

 

I know that Roland from Pinewood Sporting also shares this view as do many other people I speak to on the phone and at game fairs. BASC have been lobbied on the subject, particularly by the Scottish lads who are worried about the general lack of bird numbers.

 

Its already the norm all over the rest of Europe and if we all stick our heads in the sand it'll happen to us for certain.

 

Those two months over the summer are the only time I have a chance to do pigeon shooting

[Topgunners]

we could always become CROW watch for 2 months

 

 

 

:thumbs: :thumbs: :< :< :< :< :<

[mossy835]

the farmer phoned me up today and said there are hundreds of pigeons on the rape fields, i shoot on my own, you shoot one field and they go to another they keep going round to one field to another,