Trent Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) Since getting into shooting I've been reading everything I can get my hands on about the subject. Most recently I read about all the different kinds of cartridges that can go in a 12 gauge shotgun, but most of the information on the web seems to be US based, so I was wondering if we could legally buy these here in the UK on just a standard shotgun license? The cartridges I am curious to learn more about are things like: 1) Less lethal cartridges like ones with rubber shot or bean bag rounds. 2) Breaching rounds (hatton/disintegrator) 3) Special effects cartridges, like screechers or Dragon's Breath. I read somewhere that in the UK the shot needs to have 6 or more projectiles to be legal on an SGC... I guess because this divides the energy of the shot between them so each one doesn't fly quite as far. Obviously I realise that any of these special cartridges can be deadly if misused, and since I'm new I wouldn't even attempt to use them without supervision, I was just curious to know if they can be legally sold/owned here, or if you'd need a FAC? Edited July 17, 2009 by Trent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairyduck Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Why would you want any of those would be my first question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 A shotgun certificate permits you only to purchase and use ammunition containing more than 9 pellets. SG buckshot is as punchy as it gets. Firearm certificate conditions can be more accommodating, but you will still never get consent for less-lethal/breaching/special effects ammunition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent Posted July 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) Why would you want any of those would be my first question?I don't want them really, but I was trained as a scientist and I guess a little of that has affected the way I live my entire life: I always want to know everything I can about whatever it is I am learning about, and at the moment the new thing I am learning about is shooting. If we were allowed (say) screecher rounds that fire a whistle, I would want one merely to try it (with permission, in an appropriate place) merely for the experience of it I guess - to learn what it is like firsthand. That's just the way I like to live life: I like to try new things and learn as much as I can. A shotgun certificate permits you only to purchase and use ammunition containing more than 9 pellets. SG buckshot is as punchy as it gets. Firearm certificate conditions can be more accommodating, but you will still never get consent for less-lethal/breaching/special effects ammunition. Ah ok thanks. Edited July 17, 2009 by Trent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) '5 pellets or more of diameter no more than 9/32 of an inch' ...making a six pellet 12 gauge LG round 'legal', but IMO, unnecessary in these climes. More use in the Malayan conflict - but AAA could cut through the bushes with a better pattern according to a long forgotten writer. FC Edited July 17, 2009 by Floating Chamber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesLeic Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 '5 pellets or more of diameter no more than 9/32 of an inch' ...making a six pellet 12 gauge LG round 'legal', but IMO, unnecessary in these climes. More use in the Malayan conflict - but AAA could cut through the bushes with a better pattern according to a long forgotten writer. FC Current cartridge used in afghani for first man is an SG (in a 12 guage) .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Trent - please forgive me for being slightly sceptical. You want to purchase these to try them first hand. I accept that the noisy ones would give an audible impression. Bean bags? Large shot? What have all these got to do with shooting. If you have genuinely just started shooting and want to experience everything, why not try the different forms of shooting - clays or game. Why just the attention grabbing ammunition? Most recently I read about all the different kinds of cartridges that can go in a 12 gauge shotgun - doesn't sound very scientific to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libs Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Since getting into shooting I've been reading everything I can get my hands on about the subject. Most recently I read about all the different kinds of cartridges that can go in a 12 gauge shotgun, but most of the information on the web seems to be US based, so I was wondering if we could legally buy these here in the UK on just a standard shotgun license? The cartridges I am curious to learn more about are things like: 1) Less lethal cartridges like ones with rubber shot or bean bag rounds. 2) Breaching rounds (hatton/disintegrator) 3) Special effects cartridges, like screechers or Dragon's Breath. I read somewhere that in the UK the shot needs to have 6 or more projectiles to be legal on an SGC... I guess because this divides the energy of the shot between them so each one doesn't fly quite as far. Obviously I realise that any of these special cartridges can be deadly if misused, and since I'm new I wouldn't even attempt to use them without supervision, I was just curious to know if they can be legally sold/owned here, or if you'd need a FAC? Dragons breath... Now your talking. I take it there would be a mix of iron fillings, magnesium, strontium, barium, and if you were realllllly crazy even some aluminium for that thermire effect. Basically I would not want to fire one of these rounds through any gun of mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel100 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Trent, With the exception of ammo such as shotgun tracer rounds which were sometimes used in training etc. (Questionable as the tracer pellet actually didn't go where the main body of shot went) most of the other stuff would not be permissible for use in the UK, as others have explained. However, if you wanted to collect ammunition there would be no problem with you obtaining a FAC permitting acquisition of some of the loads that you mention. I've seen the genuine 'Hatton' rounds being used in a very short pump gun (S5 authority) and they are most impressive. 12G 'Ferret' ammo is used by the police and you would not be able to own anything other than the inert rounds as the Ferret projectile is S5 - it contains CS or CR. As for 'less lethal' rubber balls, the rubber balls cannot read what it says on the pack and will still lead to half a day out with the undertaker if used close up. Whilst in Belgium, a friend of mine asked a Belgian dealer why he sold rubber pellet 12G ammo as it would still quite likely cause a lethal wound if fired indoors. The dealer replied, "But it doesn't damage the furniture as much ..." he obviously, had his priorities right :( Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) Bean bags? Large shot? What have all these got to do with shooting.Because they ARE shot from a gun, hence, part of "shooting" even if they are seemingly not the kind of shooting you like? If you have genuinely just started shooting and want to experience everything, why not try the different forms of shooting - clays or game. Why just the attention grabbing ammunition?LOL, yes, I GENUINELY have recently started shooting (about 3 months ago) and I fully intend to try whatever different kinds I can get permission and suitable locations for. But that doesn't mean I won't try what you might class as "attention grabbing ammunition" if I can find a way to safely and legally do so and I want to - why shouldn't I? Libs: I totally agree, some of the guns I like are a work of art, the engraving on them is so beautiful, so I know exactly what you mean about not wanting to fire some rounds through your guns. Not to mention some of them are examples of marvelous engineering. doesn't sound very scientific to me.LOL, OK, I'll bite, why does my learning about the different kinds of ammunition by reading about it, and then wanting to try it to get a more firsthand experience, not sound scientific to you? I'm guessing you were just joking, because other wise it doesn't seem to make any sense: The word science comes from the latin word for "knowledge," so I couldn't be any more scientific than gaining knowledge through all available sources (written and firsthand experience). Steel100/Andy: Thanks for the information Edited July 20, 2009 by Trent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Trent - a bit simplistic. I find it hard to accept your scientific curiosity. You may be genuine, but I have to plait some sawdust and juggle some soot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent Posted July 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) I find it hard to accept your scientific curiosity.Well, if I really wanted the different cartridges to do something bad, and not because of curiosity, wouldn't I be asking for the biggest baddest cartridges I could get (like 56g magnums and SG buckshot and all that?). I was asking about the LEAST dangerous kinds of cartridges (whilst admitting that I know ALL kinds could still be deadly if misused) - I was asking about the kinds designed not even to kill but only make a nice noise or flash etc. Why would I want such things if I was up to no good? I only asked if it was true what I heard that on an SGC you could only buy ammunition containing more than 6 projectiles, because I knew that if true, this would preclude the purchasing of single piece rubber rounds. I never asked for the punchiest rounds like SG buckshot, baldrick just helpfully volunteered that information, which will probably come in useful to know one day, so I'll add it to my memory banks, thanks baldrick. Anyway, I don't suppose it matters if you trust me - The police have now shown they trust me enough to give me my shotgun certificate, so after I've been shooting a while if I still fancy collecting unusual cartridges (which I probably will, because it's a slightly cheaper hobby than collecting all the different kinds of guns ) then I'll just have to apply for an FAC for that purpose as suggested. As a person who's never been in trouble in his life (not even had a late library book, let alone a speeding or parking ticket) I'm told that shouldn't be too much of a problem. And as someone who has spent 12 years working in jobs requiring the highest levels of security vetting and trust, handling billions of pounds, dollars and euro's every day, I clearly have enough trust so I don't suppose it matters if one person who doesn't know me chooses to think I'm a liar. That said, it's beyond me why someone would assume that tho? All the people I've met in real life who shoot have been friendly, but maybe some folks online are more cautious? *shrug* Edited July 22, 2009 by Trent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verytricky Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 I think the biggest baddest you can get at the moment is probably the BB 3.5 inch 63 gram Mamoth cartridge. But they hurt when you shoot them. You have to be very extreemly careful asking advice when looking at the boundaries of legality, as you have seen from this very page, the information given us often inaccurate or misleading. In addition, there are more laws that are in place to trip you up. It is not only what you may buy to shoot, but if you actually shoot it you then run into other legislation. Best advice: When you want to go to the edge of legality, ask the question of the BASC legal department. It is not a good defence in court to say you got your information from an internet forum......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 you could always stick your todger in a rat trap.....just in the name of science and get some more 'knowledge'...just because something is do-able doe'snt make in very educational or useful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highbird70 Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 you could always stick your todger in a rat trap.....just in the name of science and get some more 'knowledge'...just because something is do-able doe'snt make in very educational or useful? LMAooooo.....ouch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 The question is largely irrelevent because the stuff is not available over here. No importer is going to waste their money bringing it in. you could always stick your todger in a rat trap.....just in the name of science and get some more 'knowledge'...just because something is do-able doe'snt make in very educational or useful? Make sure you video it for the shooting videos section if you were thinking of giving it a go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr salt Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 dougall I just wet myself with that comment about a rat trap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillmouse Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 If you want to know more about these rounds, simply collect a few trade brochures from overseas cartridge manufacturers. They give details of rubber shot loads of all shapes and sizes, hard plastic, slugs, sabot rounds and all manner of weird and wonderful projectiles. There are also sites in the U.S which list the various screamers and bangers. Some do sound very impressive, if rather dangerous. 12 bore flare rounds for illumination? I don't think we will be getting those in stock any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikaveli Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 For weird curiosity, just go to YouTube... you can guarantee some redneck in america has already tried and video'd it for you. "I done tried me a .50 BMG in my Mossberg, uh huk!" "Bobby-sue... I done blowed off my hand!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon pete Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW682 Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Trent hasn't been online since July 2011. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Trent hasn't been online since July 2011. Difficult to type with no fingers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker56 Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 Difficult to type with no fingers.... Either that or the rat ate more than his todger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwade545 Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 I'm the same..... Noting scientific- I'm just a big boy who wants to play with things that go bang in a different way! Who wouldn't want to shoot some dragons breath to have the visual and auditory stimulus from shooting them ( hopefully though someone else's gun) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 Perhaps Trent has moved up to Senior School and lost interest, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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