Question Time

[Baldrick]

1 quality of life?

 

2 all good honest men and true, but still conjecture none the less.

How many people actually KNOW or even KNOW OF these 3rd generation scroungers? I personally don't, and Baldrick, as you have stated in previous posts, you live in a place so isolated people don't even hear a rifle shot. Let me tell you my friend, life in more densely populated places is a different world entirely.The drugs and rampant crime associated with them is a big worry for me at least. Henry D asked what happened to the rivers of blood, well around here, they are beginning to trickle, near riots occur on a weekly basis around Wakefield/Dewsbury, between the Iraqi and Pakistani communities, one local boy was left fighting for his life and is now disabled. Now before you start saying "that's hardly a river is it" God forbid if the boy was a member of mine or your family it would be percieved asa veritable torrent

 

Having lived in the centres of London, Norwich, Southampton, Paris, Oslo, Shanghai, Cape Town and Rome, I probably have a fairly clear idea of socio-economic and population density issues in cities. Yes, I live in the middle of nowhere at present, but I am not a bloody cretin. Furthermore, I deal with a lot of second- and third-generation scroungers on a daily basis, in my role of (reluctantly) managing residential property portfolios. I met such a family this very morning, living the life of Reilly in a property paid for by the local authority. The landlord gladly accepts the rent, and the Shameless family gladly accept their hard-earned income from the council. A nice, vicious circle...

 

Firstly!

 

Appology accepted!

 

But can I ask you to tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt there are no benefit spongers in Norfolk? Last time I was in Norwich the place was full of them!

 

There are legions of spongers in every county in the UK, and Norfolk certainly has its fair share.

 

 

I'm not in any way defending the BNP, I don't even know what their stance on Europe is, but....

 

Norway, Sweden and Switzerland all have free trade agreements with the EU. This means items they trade with the EU mustconform to EU standards, but leaves everything else unaffected.

 

Civitas produced a paper, "A Cost Too Far", which analysed (impartially) how much benefit we get from membership of the EU. The conclusion is that it's costing us £40 Billion/year (this was 5 odd years ago so it's probably more now).

 

It's worth reading....

 

http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/cs37.pdf

 

Comparisons are made with economies such as Canada, Australia, New Zeland and the US, the conclusion

is that our economy would have done much better in the last X years if we weren't tied to the EU.

 

I'd already read the Civitas paper, Nial, and yes, it's a very interesting read. Britain may well fare OK if it exited Europe, but we'd have to go through probably a decade of strife before resurfacing. It's probably worth highlighting that Norway, Sweden and Switzerland have significantly more demanding direct and indirect taxation regimes. Would you really want to pay a minimum of 25% VAT on everything (food, books, kids' clothes), as the Scandiwegians do? No, there'd be serious malcontent amongst British taxpayers.

[Nial]

I'd already read the Civitas paper, Nial, and yes, it's a very interesting read. Britain may well fare OK if it exited Europe, but we'd have to go through probably a decade of strife before resurfacing.

 

Why?

 

 

It's probably worth highlighting that Norway, Sweden and Switzerland have significantly more demanding direct and indirect taxation regimes. Would you really want to pay a minimum of 25% VAT on everything (food, books, kids' clothes), as the Scandiwegians do? No, there'd be serious malcontent amongst British taxpayers.

 

 

Aye but they are very socialist countries and have traditionally had high levels of tax (are you sure about Switzerland, I thought some cantons had very low

levels of tax but I could be wrong).

 

Leaving Europe wouldn't mean our taxes have to go up, and if we're saving £40 Billion a year there's a good argument they could go down.

 

 

Nial.

[Boromir]

I'd already read the Civitas paper, Nial, and yes, it's a very interesting read. Britain may well fare OK if it exited Europe, but we'd have to go through probably a decade of strife before resurfacing. It's probably worth highlighting that Norway, Sweden and Switzerland have significantly more demanding direct and indirect taxation regimes. Would you really want to pay a minimum of 25% VAT on everything (food, books, kids' clothes), as the Scandiwegians do? No, there'd be serious malcontent amongst British taxpayers.

 

 

Yes I would pay 25% VAT if it meant I get less hassle from Europe with all there Health and Safety stuff etc. And at least we dont have to waist more money on MEP's.

 

Also I want to make a public apology to Blunderbuss I was getting carried away with what I was saying- I am stuck between The Tories and the BNP. BNP policies sound very good apart from there stance on people who have earned there right to stay here. I would vote Conservatives but something doesnt look right about them, its seems that Cameron is just following in the footsteps of Obama, Vote for change etc.

[Boromir]

Why?

 

 

 

 

 

Aye but they are very socialist countries and have traditionally had high levels of tax (are you sure about Switzerland, I thought some cantons had very low

levels of tax but I could be wrong).

 

Leaving Europe wouldn't mean our taxes have to go up, and if we're saving £40 Billion a year there's a good argument they could go down.

 

 

Nial.

 

Yes £40 billion saving a year, we dont have to pay for the Train stations that are built in Eastern Europe we will never use.

[Baldrick]

Why?

 

Aye but they are very socialist countries and have traditionally had high levels of tax (are you sure about Switzerland, I thought some cantons had very low

levels of tax but I could be wrong).

 

Leaving Europe wouldn't mean our taxes have to go up, and if we're saving £40 Billion a year there's a good argument they could go down.

 

 

Nial.

 

The decade of strife comment is me wearing my farmer hat, having read a lot of industry comment in recent weeks about the impact of a potential withdrawal from Europe would cause for Britain's agricultural industry. There's obviously the superficial impact of losing funding from the Common Agricultural Policy (which is the profit element for many British farmers). More worrying would be the longer-term legacy of the currently exorbitant costs of food production in the UK. British farming would go bankrupt overnight if someone in Brussels pulled the plug, as there is simply no way Britain could export produce to Europe at competitive prices. Only the most shrewd owner-occupiers would keep on an even keel. Tied in to that, although I appreciate that it is at a provincial level, are issues regarding unemployment and housing outside of city centres.

 

BFG, I agree, something is definitely not right about Cameron, but I believe he's the lesser of two evils.

[MrTom]

here i was thinking BNP stood for british national party, & they hated anything non british. they stood for any thing that is better for britain, the british passport holders & the british people. NOT , black, red, yellow or what ever some refer others as, but.. i also read there are more ,non national british voters for them than 'British' whites them selves, by this i meen poles, checks, italian, german, swiss, spanish , pakistani etc etc origin people with british passports, them who trully realise britian has done them good& been abenefit to there lifes & trully grateful for what britainhas done for them. Hmmmmmm makes me wonder, why ?? britain for british, that will do, no matter what background, colour or beleif. british are churrch of england citizens too, good old king henry sorted that.

 

when in britain , do as the british

[Blackbart]

Yes, it is all about money. What else matters on the international stage, and in terms of keeping the British public sector afloat? Does immigration policy, one's lineage and all those other fascinating BNP policies really mean anything in the wider context?

 

Blackbart, Lord Geordie, I apologise for the offence caused - my generalisation swept a little too far. I do not mean that everyone north of Watford is a taxpayer-subsidised scrote. But you can't argue that such people predominate on council estates and the urban fringes in the North, where decent, employable and ambitious folk are increasingly the minority. Ask any local copper, councillor or journalist, and they'll attest that hard-working folk like you and I are being bred out in a lot of areas of the UK. It's an unpalatable truth, but research the demographic if you think I'm wrong.

 

Sorry baldrick i didnt realise EVERYONE south of watford was in gainfull employment and worked one day a week to keep a roof over the northern scroats

 

OK i researched the demographic and you are wrong

The BNP membership that was leaked a while ago has been researched(on behalf of the lib dems )and the majority of those on the list are C2 "skilled working class" and they were followed by the scroats you talk of "unskilled manual labour/unemployed"

 

The top and bottom of it is if the mainstream party's took immigration seriously then the BNP wouldnt exist.

[kdubya]

The top and bottom of it is if the mainstream party's took immigration seriously then the BNP wouldnt exist.

 

Unfortunately the mainstream parties take immigration very serious! it is a foremost weapon in keeping inflation down via min wage or LESS being paid to immigrants (ask any farmer who needs seasonal workers, pound an hour ok sir!) also the labour party are not going to curb it as its a large proportion of "assured" votes why do you think Cameron is trying to get them "on board" he knows he needs them to beat cyclops and his bunch of corrupt cretins? you can just imagine the prospective candidate for leicester or bradford knocking on doors and asking gupta to support a tighter immigration policy whilst 23 illegals are hiding behind the sofa!!

 

KW

[kdubya]

Just read this article it puts it over very well hence my reason to cut and paste into this disscusion.

 

KW

 

Wow - Nick Griffin of the BNP and yours truly of ATW both on the BBC this evening.

 

Griffin is on Question Time and I will be LIVEBLOGGING it over on Biased BBC. Should be entertaining. I will be debating the issue of his appearance myself later on Hearts and Minds and in essence I look at in the following ways;

 

1. The BNP is a lawful political party which attracts a significant number of votes and the BBC is right to provide it with a platform. Censoring views with which we differ is the road to tyranny.

 

2. Those such as Peter Hain who hysterically berate the BBC for allowing Griffin on this programme actually help the BNP. They paint Griffin as a victim and that will enable the BNP to grow. Britain loves an underdog.

 

3. The BBC has already allowed the likes of Martin McGuinness and George Galloway onto this programme and many people will find them as repugnant as Nick Griffin.

 

4. Question Time is about examining political opinion. The BNP are growing because of the failure of the mainstream political parties to deal with the big issues of Immigration and Islam and UK National sovereignty. That has created a political vacuum and the BNP are filling it. It is perfectly reasonable for British people to be genuinely worried about our porous borders and the tsunami of illegal immigrants WITHOUT being labelled racist. Similarly, it is understandable for people to fear the growth of militant Islam whilst still appreciating the benefits that moderate Muslims have made. The advance of the EU Superstate DOES worry people but if they raise objection they are instantly nailed as xenophobes, little Englanders. This all plays into the hands of BNP opportunism and it is the failure of the main political parties that appear on QT week weak out that needs examined.

 

5. On a minor point, the BNP is not "extreme right". It is authoritarian, protectionist, anti-Thatcherism - hardly the mark of a right wing organisation. It IS cunning though and has seized the opportunity created by the failure of the major parties to engage with the concerns of many millions of ordinary Brits. Do we blame for the BNP for this or do we blame the political establishment.

 

6. What I would like to see tonight is the main parties forced to actually engage with the big issues that they successfully manage to avoid. Screaming "racist" at the BNP will achieve nothing.

[alexr]

There is a degree of political hypocrisy here. The three main parties are unwilling to make the BNP a prescribed organization, effectively outlawing them, but are outraged that the BBC are willing to give then a chance to air their views. If they are a legitimate organization then they are entitled to their say. If they are illegal then ban them from public life. Do not deny them one with out enforcing the other.

[henry d]

.......... Henry D asked what happened to the rivers of blood, well around here, they are beginning to trickle, near riots occur on a weekly basis around Wakefield/Dewsbury, between the Iraqi and Pakistani communities, one local boy was left fighting for his life and is now disabled.

 

Do you have a link to any news items regarding this lad or the riots ? I can`t find anything in the Yorkshire Evening Post.

[Chard]

Do you have a link to any news items regarding this lad or the riots ? I can`t find anything in the Yorkshire Evening Post.

 

I don't know of any riots or near riots (recently) but I shoot with a number of lads from Bolton and Bury, and I've heard them mention on numerous occasions that racial tension in these towns is terrible, simmering very close to the surface all the time. They've expressed a view that it would only take a relatively minor incident for it all to kick off again.

 

The hatred appears to be on both sides

[alexr]

I don't know of any riots or near riots (recently) but I shoot with a number of lads from Bolton and Bury, and I've heard them mention on numerous occasions that racial tension in these towns is terrible, simmering very close to the surface all the time. They've expressed a view that it would only take a relatively minor incident for it all to kick off again.

 

The hatred appears to be on both sides

 

Unfortunatly I have heard this too.

[al4x]

the problem with those areas is they are pretty deprived and the lads tend to like a fight over anything really, Football being a prime example so not race related. Give them a race issue as well and yes it will lead to tensions especially in a period of recession when unemployment is high

[fullbore]

Do you have a link to any news items regarding this lad or the riots ? I can`t find anything in the Yorkshire Evening Post.

 

 

You will find no link It is a town called Ravensthorpe, predominantly Asian into which all the other asylum seekers from all over the place are finding themselves. By the way, Ravensthorpe is also home to the biggest Amphetamine factory in Europe, according to relaible sources, but before you ask why aren't the authorities steaming in and sorting it, it is a racially sensitive area, one in fact where the traffic wardens are specifically instructed NOT to ticket an Asian car, WHATEVER the circumstances, yeelow lines, no tax etc etc to avoid racial confrontation (fact and don't ask me who is the traffic warden because that would just get them into trouble) We are finding of the riots from the police who attend them who are part of the local shooting community. The news is being repressed, for whatever reason, and that is first hand from the cops on the ground. The boys name is Lee Massey and to save you trawling (but feel free) here is the report

 

 

 

 

On the 12th of October, 2003, Dewsbury Celtic Rugby player and father-of-one, Lee Massey, was murderously attacked in the Ravensthorpe area of Dewsbury, West Yorkshire.

 

A gang of up to 40 middle-eastern asylum seekers, wielding machetes, hammers, knives and iron bars attacked Lee, Darren Lee, his stepson, Daniel and several others as they were enjoying an evening out.

 

Darren was stabbed and suffered a punctured lung and Daniel had 30 stitches in wounds in his arm and chest.

 

During the attack, a car was driven at them, it mounted the pavement and Lee was catapulted into the air, landing on his head. The driver of the car then deliberately reversed his vehicle over him, shattering his skull. Lee suffered severe brain damage and leg injuries as a result.

 

The car sped off and was later found abandoned.

 

Police later arrested five asylum-seekers but were unable to charge anyone because none of them could speak English and no translator who understood their dialect could be found.

 

Subsequently, five more men were arrested. A little while later, these men, and the five who were originally taken into custody, were released on police bail. One irate local said:

 

"Our local TV news thought it more important to tell us about how unfair it is that there isn't a mosque in Belfast to cater for the city's Muslim population, rather than report the attack on Lee. People here think the authorities and the media are working together to keep the lid on this".

 

Those who attempted to kill Lee and his friends, whose whose crude and unpleasant comments to a girl they didn't know had set the events of that evening in train, had been sent to Dewsbury as a result of the Home Office's dispersal programme.

 

A spokeswomen for Kirklees Council suggested that the number of asylum seekers living in Dewsbury was "somewhere between 700 and 900".

 

A total news blackout was imposed upon the events of that night by the British media.

 

The only site on the whole of the World Wide Web where news of Lee's condition could be accessed in the immediate aftermath was that of the British National Party.

 

On the 26th of November, 2004, The Yorkshire Post reported thus:

 

"Ten Iraqi Kurds assembled weapons including a metal pole and a chunk of wood with nails for the pre-planned attack outside the Royal public house in Ravensthorpe, Dewsbury...

 

The prosecution say Lee Massey was on the pavement when he was injured by a blue Honda Civic which was deliberately driven at him. He received head injuries, a fractured skull, and has been left with severe and permanent brain damage. While he was in hospital it was thought he would not survive but he did so.

 

Mr Gibson (prosecuting) said the attack on October 12 last year - a Sunday - was planned and that the Iraqis had gathered at a house in Ravensthorpe to prepare.

 

'A large group of Iraqi men met at a house just around the corner from the Royal. It was the home of two of the defendants, Ari Karim and Jaza Karim.

 

Many of the participants arrived by car. The prosecution say the meeting was pre-arranged. A number of weapons were taken up. Wooden legs were removed from a table, a metal pole outside the house was taken and at least two men were armed with knives. Somebody had a piece of wood with nails in it. A skip was near the house - other debris such as concrete was taken'.

 

The Iraqis then went to the car park of the Royal pub where one of them, Saman Ahmed, spoke to landlord John Butcher, according to the prosecution...

 

Bestoon Mohammed has denied wounding Darren and Daniel Lee with intent. Mohsen Sadiq has denied causing Lee Massey grievous bodily harm with intent.

 

The other defendants are: Ari Karim, Hawker Mahmood, Jaza Karim, Saman Ahmed, Bahgat Fayzulla, Nizar Maoloud, Herish Wali and Najat Majid".

 

Mohsen Sadiq, who was jailed for twelve years, was the only one of the riotous asylum-seekers who ended up with a jail sentence.

 

Nine other Iraqi Kurds were cleared of any involvement and the rest never came to trial. This included those who chased and stabbed Darren and Danny and tried to stab others.

 

And Sadiq, who was granted temporary permission to stay in the UK after his asylum claim was rejected, did not have to face a charge of attempted murder, grievous bodily harm was the only thing he was charged with. Commenting upon this, Judge Alistair McCallum said:

 

"I wish I could pass a higher sentence for this heinous crime but I am bound by precedent." He also said:

 

"You intended to cause Lee Massey really serious injuries and you certainly achieved your goal. Out of respect for his relatives I shall not catalogue his appaling injuries... but you have totally ruined his future, permanently leaving him completely incapable of enjoying a normal life, and destroying his marriage."

 

Judge McCallum added that Sadiq's response on being told of Lee's injuries, he said, "that's his problem", demonstrated a "lack of humanity I have not encountered in the many people who have come before me."

 

Lee's mother, Margaret, said:

 

"Before, he was happy-go-lucky, he loved his work as a HGV driver. He was a fantastic rugby player – he can't play rugby again, he can't work again. He's very angry and frustrated with his injuries. He can't speak properly but he has taught himself to walk again. He has good days and bad days."

Edited October 22, 2009 by fullbore

[al4x]

erm that was 6 years ago is that all we're basing the opinion on?

[fullbore]

erm that was 6 years ago is that all we're basing the opinion on?

 

No there is much more Henry D asked specifically for the link to that case, and the fct that it happened 6 years ago surely doesn't diminish the fact it happened does it? I would imaging if it was a family member of yours you would be still smarting

[Chard]

the problem with those areas is they are pretty deprived and the lads tend to like a fight over anything really, Football being a prime example so not race related. Give them a race issue as well and yes it will lead to tensions especially in a period of recession when unemployment is high

 

 

Unfortunately in these mill towns, it has nothing whatsoever to do with football. I wish it was football-related, I would then regard it as trivial nonsense. It's purely racial.

[henry d]

...The boys name is Lee Massey and to save you trawling (but feel free) here is the report.....

 

and the report was from the, totally unbiased "I am an Englishman" site Makes the Daily Mail look Left wing !

[fullbore]

- it's feral, moronic, sportswear-clad tossers from third-generation welfare-funded families in Northern sink estates that are the drain on society.

 

 

It would appear we all have prejudices, be it skin colour or clothing, but then again prejudice is just choice, choice which has helped us as a species surivive over the millenia, oh and kindly point out where I said you were a bloody cretin

[fullbore]

and the report was from the, totally unbiased "I am an Englishman" site Makes the Daily Mail look Left wing !

 

 

Henry, where ever it was reported does not diminsh the fact that it is just that, fact. Kindly research further and see if there were any untruths in the report. It DID happen, and in the manner in which reported.

 

just to get the other side of the story here's the link to Kurd net, is that impartial enough for you?

 

http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2...ngdomkurds1.htm

Edited October 22, 2009 by fullbore

[henry d]

So where are the reports of the "near riots" ? and why no mention of it being a revenge attack, which means someone had attacked the Iraqi`s first, or am I wrong ?

[fullbore]

So where are the reports of the "near riots" ? and why no mention of it being a revenge attack, which means someone had attacked the Iraqi`s first, or am I wrong ?

 

 

 

A total news blackout was imposed upon the events of that night by the British media.

 

Henry, please also read carefully my earlier post which stated . The news is being repressed, for whatever reason, and that is first hand from the cops on the ground

 

Yes someone else did attack them first, they were members of the local Asian community who lived in that area first, and thus laid their claim to their "turf"

As a local, and as someone with friends in the police who are also members of the shooting community, I get to hear of these events, but NOT through the media. So, if I am reading you right, you are inferring because they are NOT reported in the media, they did not happen? And this is a media which as well know, and are told by the celebs who feature in in it regularly that what IS reported bears no resemblance to the truth

PS I didn't notice you ridiculing the report in the kurdish net even though it was almost verbatim as reported in the Englishman

Edited October 22, 2009 by fullbore

[al4x]

how do you know a news blackout was put on it purely speculation and conspiracy theory I'd suggest

[fullbore]

how do you know a news blackout was put on it purely speculation and conspiracy theory I'd suggest

 

 

Again Al4x please read THOROUGHLY all my earlier posts and it is all explained in them, including first hand reports from police officers, NOT conjecture and conspiracy theory, and one of my permissions is on the hills overlooking the town, and my own eyes witness scenes with the binoculars, you are welcome to join me on your own fact finding mission should you so choose