28gm 7.5's for woodies?

[anser2]

After hearing the talk of using 7.5s on the forum and an eye of saving cartridge costs I thought I would try some again yesterday. I got a couple of boxes of Eley Firsts 21 gr load of 7.5. I killed 32 birds including some very stone dead good long birds , but 8 birds made it to the wood on the far side of the field clearly badly hit and 5 were later retrieved. A further 4 birds were clearly hit , but did not come down within sight. the switch over to 28 gr of number 6 Rio Target loads was enlightening. No more long droppers and only 2 wounded birds which fell straight to the ground ( broken wings ) The next 95 shells produced 72 pigeons.

 

Success rate for the 7.5s = 64% - 254 pellets

Success rate for the no 6s = 75% - 270 pellets

 

The gun used was 1\2 and full choke.

 

Clearly the no 6s performed better and though it is true the no 7.5 were 7gr lighter load the higher kill rate and the lower wounding rates of no 6 were obvious. its 10 years since I last tried 7.5s on pigeon and my opinion has not changed. Stick to no 6 or 6.5s and you will not go far wrong.

Edited August 1, 2010 by anser2

[ollie]

After hearing the talk of using 7.5s on the forum and an eye of saving cartridge costs I thought I would try some again yesterday. I got a couple of boxes of Eley Firsts 21 gr load of 7.5. I killed 32 birds including some very stone dead good long birds , but 8 birds made it to the wood on the far side of the field clearly badly hit and 5 were later retrieved. A further 4 birds were clearly hit , but did not come down within sight. the switch over to 28 gr of number 6 Rio Target loads was enlightening. No more long droppers and only 2 wounded birds which fell straight to the ground ( broken wings ) The next 95 shells produced 72 pigeons.

 

Success rate for the 7.5s = 64% - 254 pellets

Success rate for the no 6s = 75% - 270 pellets

 

The gun used was 1\2 and full choke.

 

Clearly the no 6s performed better and though it is true the no 7.5 were 7gr lighter load the higher kill rate and the lower wounding rates of no 6 were obvious. its 10 years since I last tried 7.5s on pigeon and my opinion has not changed. Stick to no 6 or 6.5s and you will not go far wrong.

 

Why didn't you try 28g loads in the 7 1/2?

[Paul223]

Why didn't you try 28g loads in the 7 1/2?

god knows

[Paul223]

Clearly the no 6s performed better and though it is true the no 7.5 were 7gr lighter load the higher kill rate and the lower wounding rates of no 6 were obvious. its 10 years since I last tried 7.5s on pigeon and my opinion has not changed. Stick to no 6 or 6.5s and you will not go far wrong.

I'll say it again, may be this time people might catch on, shot size depends on the manufacturer and the country of origin, it's about time we started to talk in actual size in mm's, looking around on the interweb shot size 7.5 can be anything from 2.25mm to 2.45mm, in those same mm size for other manufacturers are shot sizes 6.5, 7, 7.5 and 8, see what I mean?

[anser2]

Olli and Paul. I did not use the 28 gr loads as the last time I used them ( Eley Hawk ) many of the pigeon were hit with so many pellets ( at 25-30 yards ) that the meat was ruined. The difference in the number of pellets between 28 gr of 6s and 21 gr of 7.5s is small ( 16 ) thus giving a fair test.

 

I was also looking for the cheapest available load . The 21 Eley firsts were 70p a box cheaper than the Rios. But they were not worth the saving. As for pellet size i am not going to measure the shot size of every box i use. I have bought express shells of the same brand , from the same shop that have had 3 different shot sizes in them despite clearly having no 3 marked on the box.

Edited August 1, 2010 by anser2

[tignme]

Saturday 31st Aug decoying pigeons,using my usual mirage t2s 28 gram 7.5s,crows 17,pigeons picked 49 including 50% rangey birds ,4 winged crows,6 winged pigeons. My mate shooting 32 no 6s mirage something shot 33 woodies.the difference is in the head, I shoot the cheapest trap load I can get with the gun choked 1/4 x 1/4. The birds have all been prepared and only one discarded because of meat damaged. The debate goes on .

Edited August 1, 2010 by tignme

[Paul223]

Most show the shot size and actual size on the bulk box, eley firsts are 2.3mm, aguila are 2.4mm, both 7.5's, apparently

[the running man]

A mate of mine who does everything on the cheap,uses 28 gram 7.5 kent velocity,thinkin there all the same. Well he keeps using them and keeps missing the further away they get. He gets some close ones but wat good is that! U pay peanuts u get monkeys!

[UKPoacher]

Well, i'm no mathematician but i've been doing some number crunching

 

Using a 1/4 choke and at 40yards the spread is roughly 48"

 

Assuming a uniform rate of spread over this distance and using the calculator function on my 'phone i have deduced that for every 1" of spread the shot must travel 30".

 

Therefore for every inch of travel the shot spreads at a rate of 0.03333", so if you're using 28" barrels as opposed to 30" barrels you have an extra 0.06666" spread of shot at 40 yards.

 

Good luck if you can see the difference, though i suspect, like most things in shooting, it's all in the head.

 

So, are you saying that a 2" (two inch) barrel would only give 1" more spread than a 30" barrell would?

[Paul223]

So, are you saying that a 2" (two inch) barrel would only give 1" more spread than a 30" barrell would?

are you saying it wouldn't

[MC]

So, are you saying that a 2" (two inch) barrel would only give 1" more spread than a 30" barrell would?

 

 

Do you know any many 2" barrels?

[UKPoacher]

Do you know any many 2" barrels?

 

That is totally irrelevant.

 

Are you saying then that you agree with poontang?

[MC]

That is totally irrelevant.

 

Are you saying then that you agree with poontang?

 

Yes I do agree with him,

 

It is simple geometry that if you start a taper of a given angle from 2 points one of which is is 2" further back than the other then anywhere along those tapers will be slightly different.

 

I can draw this to 8 decimal places if you want.

 

The issue is that no shotload will open out EXACTLY the same so all these arguments are irrelevant

[UKPoacher]

Yes I do agree with him,

 

It is simple geometry that if you start a taper of a given angle from 2 points one of which is is 2" further back than the other then anywhere along those tapers will be slightly different.

 

I can draw this to 8 decimal places if you want.

 

The issue is that no shotload will open out EXACTLY the same so all these arguments are irrelevant

 

Hmm! Therefore you are saying by definition that a gun with a 2" barrel will only give a 1" wider spread than a gun with 32" barrels, all things being equal?

 

So at what point do the pellets stop bouncing around the barrel and all travel parrallel? No need for within 8 decimal places. A rough estimate will suffice.

[Guest cookoff013]

are we going off topic?

[MC]

Hmm! Therefore you are saying by definition that a gun with a 2" barrel will only give a 1" wider spread than a gun with 32" barrels, all things being equal?

 

So at what point do the pellets stop bouncing around the barrel and all travel parrallel? No need for within 8 decimal places. A rough estimate will suffice.

 

 

All things being equal then yes that is exactly what I am saying

 

OK,

 

I have drawn it up and with the shot leaving a 28" barrel and a 30" barrel (assuming one is 2" ahead of the other" and out to 30 meters than the difference in spread is 2.003 MILLIMETRES.

 

And I would stake my life on the fact that noone could ever measure the difference in the field.

 

So in essence barrel length does not come into the equation

Edited August 2, 2010 by MC

[TJ91]

A mate of mine who does everything on the cheap,uses 28 gram 7.5 kent velocity,thinkin there all the same. Well he keeps using them and keeps missing the further away they get. He gets some close ones but wat good is that! U pay peanuts u get monkeys!

 

i have used well over 1000 of these cartridges, also use them in 30gram 6 and i can kill at good ranges with them, i could say that eley (or rio or hull cartridge or whatever else) are rubbish cartridges as i didnt fair to well with the 200 i used the other day...i know that they arent though... it is purely what you get used to, maybe he just isnt a good shot, give him different cartridges he may still miss all the same, it maybe that his gun doesnt fit, or he is just not good at judging the speed of targets at greater ranges therefore he is giving too much or not enough lead..

 

i have used kent velocitys for over a year now and i dont buy any other unless i am shooting at some big animals or they arent in stock... they have dropped plenty of high pheasants and pigeons for me

 

just my tuppence worth

 

cheers

TJ

[motty]

i have used well over 1000 of these cartridges, also use them in 30gram 6 and i can kill at good ranges with them, i could say that eley (or rio or hull cartridge or whatever else) are rubbish cartridges as i didnt fair to well with the 200 i used the other day...i know that they arent though... it is purely what you get used to, maybe he just isnt a good shot, give him different cartridges he may still miss all the same, it maybe that his gun doesnt fit, or he is just not good at judging the speed of targets at greater ranges therefore he is giving too much or not enough lead..

 

i have used kent velocitys for over a year now and i dont buy any other unless i am shooting at some big animals or they arent in stock... they have dropped plenty of high pheasants and pigeons for me

 

just my tuppence worth

 

cheers

TJ

 

Couldn't agree more! I remember a good day on peas last year when a mate of mine and i killed high bird after high bird using 28gm 7 1/2. He kept saying, ' I thought these cartridges were supposed to be **** on pigeons', every time he dropped another high bird.

[motty]

Olli and Paul. I did not use the 28 gr loads as the last time I used them ( Eley Hawk ) many of the pigeon were hit with so many pellets ( at 25-30 yards ) that the meat was ruined. The difference in the number of pellets between 28 gr of 6s and 21 gr of 7.5s is small ( 16 ) thus giving a fair test.

 

I was also looking for the cheapest available load . The 21 Eley firsts were 70p a box cheaper than the Rios. But they were not worth the saving. As for pellet size i am not going to measure the shot size of every box i use. I have bought express shells of the same brand , from the same shop that have had 3 different shot sizes in them despite clearly having no 3 marked on the box.

I usually use ic or half choke and don't find any meat damage. You may smash a bird up if you shoot one at 15 yards, but as you know, that will happen with any load, really.

[poontang]

Do you know any many 2" barrels?

 

 

That is totally irrelevant.

 

I suppose in a way it is irrelevant, as by the time you've picked your hand up off the floor after firing your 2" barrelled gun you won't really be too bothered what pattern you're getting!!

 

However, as i live in the real world, where barrels tend to be between 28"- 32", i still maintain that nobody could tell the difference in the shot pattern of either barrel length when fired in the field at a given distance.

[utectok]

I suppose in a way it is irrelevant, as by the time you've picked your hand up off the floor after firing your 2" barrelled gun you won't really be too bothered what pattern you're getting!!

 

However, as i live in the real world, where barrels tend to be between 28"- 32", i still maintain that nobody could tell the difference in the shot pattern of either barrel length when fired in the field at a given distance.

I agree however the longer guns feel and swing differently but every gun does as most have a different balance. That's my opinion anyhow

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

I am amused by the reaction a simple subject generates I am not a expert on this subject have any of you got any former expert knowledge of ballistics .

 

So I base my replies and answers on field work eg shooting at pigeons on wide and vary distance from 20 yards to 50 yards .

I tried some 7.5s yesterday and found them good for the decoyed birds but the flighters at distance they only winged them on average no good in any shooter opinion .

 

Also I find it odd that a couple of the poster saying 7.5s are plenty good enough where not in the top flight of north vs south hodnet shoot.

 

And by the way since this thread has started I have shot over 700 birds with 6s now thats what I call knowlegde on subject .

 

6s are best either 28/30/0r 32s grams fact not opinion for trying kill as many birds cleanly without injurying at the varied angles and distances presented on any given day .

 

Kind regards OTH

Edited August 3, 2010 by Over the hill

[MC]

I am amused by the reaction a simple subject generates I am not a expert on this subject have any of you got any former expert knowledge of ballistics .

 

So I base my replies and answers on field work eg shooting at pigeons on wide and vary distance from 20 yards to 50 yards .

I tried some 7.5s yesterday and found them good for the decoyed birds but the flighters at distance they only winged them on average no good in any shooter opinion .

 

Also I find it odd that a couple of the poster saying 7.5s are plenty good enough where not in the top flight of north vs south hodnet shoot.

 

And by the way since this thread has started I have shot over 700 birds with 6s now thats what I call knowlegde on subject .

 

6s are best either 28/30/0r 32s grams fact not opinion for trying kill as many birds cleanly without injurying at the varied angles and distances presented on any given day .

 

Kind regards OTH

 

 

Well done for posting one of the first sensible replies on the thread.

 

Keep up the good work.

[al4x]

I'm a little bemused by the thinking its of to wing some on birds out of range but hey ho.

 

I've shot a fox with them just to stoke the fire

[UKPoacher]

I suppose in a way it is irrelevant, as by the time you've picked your hand up off the floor after firing your 2" barrelled gun you won't really be too bothered what pattern you're getting!! :blink:

 

However, as i live in the real world, where barrels tend to be between 28"- 32", i still maintain that nobody could tell the difference in the shot pattern of either barrel length when fired in the field at a given distance.

 

The point that is relevant, that neither of you have grasped, or maybe deliberately avoided, is that there will be an optimum length that allows all, or most of the shot to be sorted into a parallel coloumn. Any barrel shorter than that optimum will result in a wider spread as some of the shot may leave the barrel at an angle to it. Once you get longer than that optimum length it will not matter as much as most of the individual pellets will be travelling parallel to each other.

 

So, unless you have specialist ballistics knowledge backed up by research, it doesn't matter how much you fiddle with calculations on your mobile phone, or how many figures after the decimal points your answer is, it's all bullocks!

 

That's the trouble with empirical research such as this; one person can come to the conclusion that 7.5's are as good as 6's and another will come to the opposite conclusion.

 

Shoot with what you are confident using, but never put cost before efficiency when shooting live quarry is my belief.

Edited August 3, 2010 by UKPoacher