Raja Clavata Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 First off, apologies to anyone already bored with this kind of thing but I think my experience is worth sharing. Background: I have had a FAC since 31st March 2009, starting off with a .22lr & .17HMR with a mentoring condition imposed by my FEO at the time (now retired). 15 months in, and approximately 12 months after the mentoring condition was removed, I applied for my first centre-fire (.243) for fox and muntjac which was granted for fox only until such time that I passed DSC1. Having passed the DSC1 in August last year I got the .243 conditions altered to include deer. Shortly afterwards having secured some boar shooting and wanting to ensure I was adequately equipped for large deer species I applied for .308 in addition to .243. When the FAC came back I was very disappointed to find that the .308 was conditioned to include accompaniment by an experienced shooter clause. Having consulted with BASC I wrote a robust letter to the NE Met FET Licensing Manager asking for the condition to be removed as it had not been discussed with me prior to being issued, had not been requested by me and would restrict my practical use of this rifle. At the same time I requested that in the event that the condition was not removed that the FET team provide me with a clear and unambiguous defintion of what "accompanied" actually means in practice along with their version of the defintion of an "experienced shooter" is. Here follows the response I received back early last month: --------------- Dear Mr W, In response to your letter dated 15th November please allo me to explain. I apologise if the condition "to be supervised" was not conveyed to you before you recieved my letter. I have added this condition as you are relatively new to shooting and the taking of deer and wild boar is a difficult and exacting form of shooting. It is a common condiion and only means that you need to be in the company of an experienced shot. This can be someone whos runs professional shoots or has held an FAC (and shot the required quarry) for a number of years. This is to ensure you gain some experience whilst supervised. It would normally entail you participating in approximately six guided shoots before I would consider removing this condition. I would be surprised if you had intended going shooting completely on your own at this stage and therefore hopefully this will not be a problem for you. For instance I would imagine the BASC's Arran atalking scheme is organised / run by experienced stalkers. I hope I have made the matter clearer and that this requirement will not present too many difficulties for you. I am aware you have pass the DSC Level 1. ------------- So, with the exception of boar I can do everything with the .243 unaccompanied which I need to accompanied in order to do with the .308. Bonkers in my opinion. Am I missing the point here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Having consulted with BASC I wrote a robust letter to the NE Met FET Licensing Manager asking for the condition to be removed as it had not been discussed with me prior to being issued, had not been requested by me and would restrict my practical use of this rifle. So what is BASC going to do now ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Sounds like they made a job creation scheme for themselves and got you jumping thru hoops for no purpose apart from keeping themselves in work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted January 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Haven't decided if I'll follow-up with BASC further yet. They will advise to push back as hard as possible but I'd be well ****** if the FEO decides the accompaniment clause should also be added to the .243. What would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 What would you do? For the neck end of £70 a pop I'd want BASC to contact them direct But from passed experience I very much doubt that will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Makes you wonder what the point of doing a DSC1 is? Your lot seem particularly awkward, and there was me thinking that Essex..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 You've either got to grow a pair or bend over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonevo Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I was under the impression, that BASC will back you up should you need there services,BUT if I were you in this case I would consider joining NGO nationl gamekeeping Organisation the guy onboard there George Wallace will get it sorted for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Haven't decided if I'll follow-up with BASC further yet. They will advise to push back as hard as possible but I'd be well ****** if the FEO decides the accompaniment clause should also be added to the .243. What would you do? Thought once a FAC was granted they couldn't add extra conditions? Just like if they try to reduce ammo allowance you could fight with a partial revocation of FAC without grounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC45 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Jobs for the boys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 first they made you do the DSC1. Now they give you this advise "For instance I would imagine the BASC's Arran atalking scheme is organised / run by experienced stalkers." are the FLD,s on back handers i wonder. To be quite honest, looks like yer shafted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted January 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Yes, if this were a level playing field in pretty much any other aspect of my life then I could this apart comprehensively. But it isn't and am thinking I already made my point and have nothing further to gain. Don't think they'll have put a black mark against me yet but hopefully won't try messing me about unnecessarily in the future. I think part of the problem is the lack of continuity in FEO, I've had a different one every time since my original one retired. I have met, through my pheasant syndicate, a gamekeeper who is an AW and is one of the NGO reps on deer stalking and made arrangements to do a couple accompanied stalks with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 So basically are you accepting the outcome then Raja ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 For the neck end of £70 a pop I'd want BASC to contact them direct But from passed experience I very much doubt that will happen. Dont know BJ, they will have the thank the FEO for trying to put some business there way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swiss.tony Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 sorry to rag you off but you should move to south yorkshire my mate got fac 7 months ago and got 22 and 17 hmr straight away since then may be 2 months ago put in for 22.250 foxing rifle and 243 deer and got both so i feel for you mate plus i think he got them a bit to early as he had never evan fired a centerfire till the day he bought one sorry i now its a post code lottory on where you live and how diffrent forces treat everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted January 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 BJ - not sure yet. I will most likely call BASC one more time but I don't want to be the pawn in their chess game with the authorities. The BASC guy has nothing to lose, me on the other hand - well, who knows ... Worst still, someone of authority on PW could accuse me of having an agenda Tony - that is a significant part of the problem, a complete lack of consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 It doesnt make a lot of sense does it but thats the nature of the beast. As mentioned before on other posts I asked BASC if they could help me out when Glos FA wanted to put a mentoring clause on my 243 variation and asked for DSC1 before even entertaining the idea.BASC didnt want to know and just suggested I do a few paid stalks to get more experience. Its such a grey area in firearm law, coming mostly down to the firearms dept,in my experience BASC don't jump in unless its clear cut law. Luckily I never recieved a mentoring clause and my 243 is now open. Gloucestershire police have a problem with 308 calibre, though some just apply and get it, many have problems.I was very nearly in the same position with pigs last year, a customer of mine had some boar coming onto his land and asked if I could posibly deal with them. Before I even got to filling in the variation the farmer phoned me and said he had contacted the local forestry ranger to sort it as since word had got out that he had boar on the farm he had every local scoundrel and his dog offering their services. I don't think you will get much out of BASC as the Firearms are entitled to their request as unfair as it may seem. Maybe its best to just sort a mentor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) First off, apologies to anyone already bored with this kind of thing but I think my experience is worth sharing. Background: I have had a FAC since 31st March 2009, starting off with a .22lr & .17HMR with a mentoring condition imposed by my FEO at the time (now retired). 15 months in, and approximately 12 months after the mentoring condition was removed, I applied for my first centre-fire (.243) for fox and muntjac which was granted for fox only until such time that I passed DSC1. Having passed the DSC1 in August last year I got the .243 conditions altered to include deer. Shortly afterwards having secured some boar shooting and wanting to ensure I was adequately equipped for large deer species I applied for .308 in addition to .243. When the FAC came back I was very disappointed to find that the .308 was conditioned to include accompaniment by an experienced shooter clause. Having consulted with BASC I wrote a robust letter to the NE Met FET Licensing Manager asking for the condition to be removed as it had not been discussed with me prior to being issued, had not been requested by me and would restrict my practical use of this rifle. At the same time I requested that in the event that the condition was not removed that the FET team provide me with a clear and unambiguous defintion of what "accompanied" actually means in practice along with their version of the defintion of an "experienced shooter" is. Here follows the response I received back early last month: --------------- Dear Mr W, In response to your letter dated 15th November please allo me to explain. I apologise if the condition "to be supervised" was not conveyed to you before you recieved my letter. I have added this condition as you are relatively new to shooting and the taking of deer and wild boar is a difficult and exacting form of shooting. It is a common condiion and only means that you need to be in the company of an experienced shot. This can be someone whos runs professional shoots or has held an FAC (and shot the required quarry) for a number of years. This is to ensure you gain some experience whilst supervised. It would normally entail you participating in approximately six guided shoots before I would consider removing this condition. I would be surprised if you had intended going shooting completely on your own at this stage and therefore hopefully this will not be a problem for you. For instance I would imagine the BASC's Arran atalking scheme is organised / run by experienced stalkers. I hope I have made the matter clearer and that this requirement will not present too many difficulties for you. I am aware you have pass the DSC Level 1. ------------- So, with the exception of boar I can do everything with the .243 unaccompanied which I need to accompanied in order to do with the .308. Bonkers in my opinion. Am I missing the point here? I would have been asking for them to show me in the Home office guide lines where it says i have to have DSC1 before they let me shoot deed.. The trouble is with a lot of FAC holders they are to frightened to bloody stand up for themselves in cases like this.. Its a case of they have you jumping through hoops..Personally i would have told him no way am i doing DSC1 ( i think its just another money spinning lark that will be changed in a few years )if i have permission to shoot deer on one of my farms i spoke to one of the heads in Cleveland firearms about this a few weeks ago when i put in for my 243 and was told if you ask for deer they cannot refuse to put it on the same for vermin..and they do not put any conditions on to get it... Edited January 4, 2011 by hawkeye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 I would have been asking for them to show me in the Home office guide lines where it says i have to have DSC1 before they let me shoot deed.. The trouble is with a lot of FAC holders they are to frightened to bloody stand up for themselves in cases like this.. Its a case of they have you jumping through hoops..Personally i would have told him no way am i doing DSC1 ( i think its just another money spinning lark that will be changed in a few years )if i have permission to shoot deer on one of my farms i spoke to one of the heads in Cleveland firearms about this a few weeks ago when i put in for my 243 and was told if you ask for deer they cannot refuse to put it on the same for vermin..and they do not put any conditions on to get it... The clue is in the title,'Home office guidelines, it aint the law and if you read through it you will find that on many occasions its down to the firearms discretion. If you have an understanding FEO and force then count yourself lucky but your misguided if you think the firearms dept cant refuse you or put in conditions. If I had not done my DSC1 my variation would not have been granted law or not, if I appealed against the decission and the police said that they didnt believe I had enough experience and the DSC1 would help toward this do you think some chap in a wig in the high court would be on my side. I do believe however that if you own your own land its easier to get variations, a farmer having deer problems will have much more chance of getting a variation than a chap who has some verbal permission to shoot one or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Tony - that is a significant part of the problem, a complete lack of consistency. part of the reason is no two applications are the same so they can only go on what you tell them and what their policy is. I've got a supervised clause with my .243 for deer only which I'm not too fussed about, you have it in writing that you need 6 stalks I'd just do them and get it removed job done. Its just not worth the stress otherwise, if you buy stalking most of the time you'll be accompanied anyway. If you have your own ground just find someone who has had their FAC a while with deer on and take them along, we can fight these things tooth and nail or go with the flow as long as it isn't too unreasonable. Ok this doesn't make much sense but its not actually asking for that much, book a few morning and afternoon stalks and you could knock it out on a long weekend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 The more people who are willing to go along with any **** that licensing choose to put in their way,the easier it is for licensing authorities to prove a real 'need' for DSC's,mentoring etc,and then it's just a short step to beong made compulsory.Where did all these so-called experts and authorities gain their qualifications to put them into a position where they can deem who and who is not suitable to pass THEIR qualifications?If anybody wants to gain a 'rcognised'(?) qualification in shooting deer or whatever,then that is entirely up to them,but let's not forget the real reason these 'qualifications' came into being.And lets not forget who instigated them when they become compulsory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 The more people who are willing to go along with any **** that licensing choose to put in their way,the easier it is for licensing authorities to prove a real 'need' for DSC's,mentoring etc,and then it's just a short step to beong made compulsory.Where did all these so-called experts and authorities gain their qualifications to put them into a position where they can deem who and who is not suitable to pass THEIR qualifications?If anybody wants to gain a 'rcognised'(?) qualification in shooting deer or whatever,then that is entirely up to them,but let's not forget the real reason these 'qualifications' came into being.And lets not forget who instigated them when they become compulsory. agree just keep bending forward like good lads. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 As you have done DSC1 and they have granted you a .243 they must consider you a safe shot, why not meet them halfway and get a letter from an "experienced" shooter that has accompanied you on a couple of trips to write a letter to that effect. I don't see how 6 is better than 2 really! Or how .308 is less safe in your hands than .243 You could do 6 paid stalks and not get a shot off due to lack of deer, unsafe shots being the only ones available add in a miss or 2 and you have completed the requirements without shooting a deer or boar! :o Actually making the decision the shot isnt 100% safe is the thing. You could easily do 6 "mentored" outings and have 2 totally safe (without requiring any judgement) shots every time go out on your own and be left with a 50:50 i no better position to actually make the decision..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 This is the most stupid, ridiculous ******** I have ever heard in my entire life. Forgetting the boar for a second... You already have a .243 for deer. You are asking for a .308, for deer. They could be arguing you only need the one gun but they're not so that's a start. I would simply ask this - in light of my DSC1 and experience shooting .243, could you please provide me with just one example where I am safe to use my .243 unaccompanied, but would not be safe to use a .308 in the same circumstances. Let's be reasonable about this for one second - you have DSC1, which teaches you to identify the deer, any issues they might have, how to kill them safely & humanely and how to deal with the carcass. By the point of food processing it matters not a jot what round was used, so clearly there is no issue there. So by inference they are saying they do not consider you safe with a .308 but you are with a .243? Utter **** - they will both kill humans at similar ranges and with equal finality. They are the same from a safety point of view, simple as. please, for the good of everyone else in the Met region, do not take this particularly unsavoury item up your ****. The more that people bend over, the more they add this pointless ****. Just explain to the FEO that you are unhappy with their judgement in this case, make the sound argument above, and say that you would like to escalate this issue to their manager. You're not being nasty or unprofessional; you have a valid point and you want it heard. They're the Police - they might think they're God, but they're not. If you want someone to come along and be firm with them I don't mind one bit, for the good of all shooters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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