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Advice on incorrect doctors letter to police?


phaedra1106
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as the risk of going against the mood of the thread, why would you sue him when its his professional opinion.

 

obviously everyone is an individual but some of the symptoms of Aspergers dont sound conducive to un restricted access to a shotgun.

 

 

my feelings exactly, from the only showing aggression towards you that is not what I'd call a good recipe for safe holding of firearms. They aren't toys boys you can do serious damage with them, personally I'd keep the status quo take him under direct supervision.

 

True but neither of you know the lad, are either of you qualified to make that assertion based solely on his diagnosis? I think the OP is going to face an uphill battle now whether the GP was right or wrong to send the letter.

 

I wouldn't want to see someone unsuitable get an SGC nor would i want to see someone suitable not get one due to a difference of medical opinion.

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Any doctor has the right to say no for whatever reason they wish.

Doctor i used to have would not endorse anything to do with shooting full stop [anti]

 

Yes they have the right to say NO to providing information but any information provided should be factual and accurate.

 

 

as the risk of going against the mood of the thread, why would you sue him when its his professional opinion.

 

 

 

Considering the information provided by the OP, it's not a professional opinion but an opinion based on very little documentary evidence, very little personal contact and a whole heap of the doctors individual opinion, fabrication of and (by the looks of it) hostility to shooting.

 

The man needs taking to task. He should have either provided accurate information based on fact or refused to provide any at all.

Edited by DaveK
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True but neither of you know the lad, are either of you qualified to make that assertion based solely on his diagnosis? I think the OP is going to face an uphill battle now whether the GP was right or wrong to send the letter.

 

I wouldn't want to see someone unsuitable get an SGC nor would i want to see someone suitable not get one due to a difference of medical opinion.

 

Thats why i said everyone is an individual. i wasnt trying to make some kind of internet "diagnosis".

 

my worry would be that due to the current climate surrounding guns that a refusal might restrict his access to shooting etc as mentioned by others.

 

could you imagine a FEO reading that the symptoms of aspergers include difficulties in social interation, physical clumsiness, lack of empathy.

 

it is a shame that the letter went in but it sounds like there isnt much that can be done and that making a fuss might create trouble.

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We did discuss the Aspergers with the FEO when he did his visit, it looked like he had done some research beforehand as he had a fair idea of what to expect. Again I would stress that he passed the FEOs interview with flying colours, as he has every other range safety or firearm handling test he's taken at ranges in the USA since he was 15.

 

The aggression the doctor referred to was basically him telling me to F@@@ off when he's not willing to do things I ask like get showered or tidy his room, this (as having 2 other kids to go by) seems to be fairly normal for almost every teenager, most seem to go through that stage. The difference is that he was only doing it to prove to himself that by me not letting him push me away I really do care for him and that I wasn't going to leave him like his mum did. We have worked on this and now he's now into his 20's that stage has passed.

 

Aspergers is a wide spectrum disorder which means that while all Aspies share some common traits they are all different. Obviously I am biased as he's my son but there is no-one at the club that thinks he isn't safe to shoot, in fact in some ways he's actually safer than a lot of people as he will only do things the way he has been shown to, anything out of the ordinary happens (like a misfire) and he follows safety proceedure to the letter.

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Intresting reading and situ I see the problems both sides are having with the whole application .

 

It would be good to have person in the Doctors profession to give there views even though they dont know the full facts of the medical case EG would they risk there salary and overtime payments for a simple yes on a SGC application .

 

I dont know if there is way to resovle the problems for both side.

 

Good luck OTH

Edited by Over the hill
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Unfortunately, as far as i read it a section 11(6) does not extend to people who have had a certificate (fac or SGC) refused. So ic could be argued that your Boys ability to shoot in any form in the UK is now in jeaopardy if the cert is refused

 

Have you contacted the BASC for advice? this strikes me as just the sort of case that the powers that be would rather not have tested in court in the run-up to the inpending legislation and may be "cajoulable" if you have the right support, particularly when it involves a kid from a single parent family with a medical problem (it has great media poential).

 

Best of luck

 

If as advised they withdraw the application, then he hasnt been refused so could carry on regardless.

 

Where it might slip up is that it says a section 11 shouldnt be used on a regular basis by non certificate holders instead of applying for one (or words to that effect)

 

I still think its unfair....

 

shaun

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Intresting reading and situ I see the problems both sides are having with the whole application .

 

It would be good to have person in the Doctors profession to give there views even though they dont know the full facts of the medical case EG would they risk there salary and overtime payments for a simple yes on a SGC application .

 

I dont know if there is way to resovle the problems for both side.

 

Good luck OTH

 

:rolleyes:

 

shaun

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Just remember that because someone has Aspergers they should not be writen off.

 

Some quite bright people were or are Aspies..................

 

Bill Gates, Michael Palin, Alfred Hitchcock, Issac Newton, Jane Austin, Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin and Mark Twain to name a few.

 

Makes you think !!!!!

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Just remember that because someone has Aspergers they should not be writen off.

 

Some quite bright people were or are Aspies..................

 

Bill Gates, Michael Palin, Alfred Hitchcock, Issac Newton, Jane Austin, Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin and Mark Twain to name a few.

 

Makes you think !!!!!

 

Bright does not always equals safe nor does being stupid make you unsafe,who is safe I dont know if anybody does really know.

 

Cheers OTH

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makes me angry just reading it, my brother has autism and its unfair to not grant him his sgc just because of the way he is.

 

they should understand that a sgc allowing him to get his own shotgun would help him, gives him a sence of pride and maturity, something to look after and clean. (my brother has his guinni pigs... he loves them exactly the same situation)

 

you never know autistic people normally shine in one area, shooting could be his.

 

 

make sure he gets it :good:

 

ant

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The answer, in cases like this, is to allay the concerns the Police may have with a report from a medically qualified person who knows and has treated your son.

 

Will any of the other people involved in his care support his application ?

 

You need something to differentiate the reporting GP from the opinion of medics who actually know your son. In the case of a specific disability, a specialist in the field who has first hand knowledge of your son, may carry more weight.

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I've spoken to the police about getting an independent report from a specialist but the problem they have is the first doctors letter, unless he admits he doesn't know my son and has incorrectly stated "facts" about his being discharged for not making progress with the transistions team they can only go on what he has written.

 

I will raise all the points with the first GP when I see him on Thursday and unless he agrees to correct in writing the other GPs mistakes I will be lodging a formal complait with him and also contacting the Equalities and Human Rights Commission as the false information now held on file by the police is breaching my sons Human Rights and preventing him from enjoying his only sporting activity. We did go to archery twice a week but due to my health problems and shoulder damage from a car accident over 3 years ago we have not been able to continue with that. FInding a sport he can enjoy and which will enhance his social skills and allow him to make friends is vital to his continued developement as a human being.

 

I'm also going to phone the police tomorrow morning and ask if they will consider it with the supervised condition, as he doesn't drive he would always have to be taken to the shoot (25 miles away) either by myself or hopefully once he gets his SGC by his personal assistant (who was vetted by the police in order to get the job).

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If an unbiased observer can differentiate the 2 reports, with the more helpful one being from someone who actually knows & treats your son, then the police cannot be sustainably satisfied that your son cannot be permitted to possess a shotgun without danger to the public safety or to the peace.

 

I would expect that a crown court judge would understand the situation.

 

You only have limited time to appeal, but you might reapply in a while and appeal if that is refused... there's always a risk of having to pay the police's legal costs. However you can sometimes negotiate something useful once the appeal is in.

 

By the way, I don't believe a shotgun certificate can carry conditions.

 

BASC seems to have a lot of detractors at the moment, but I think members would find it very helpful at a time like this.

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As it stands at the moment his application has been withdrawn so there will be no refusal. I spoke to Durham Firearms this morning and as usual they were very helpful, they can't issue a SGC with a "Must be supervised" condition to someone his age, only to those who are required by law to have it.

 

One thing that came about as a result of a conversation with someone else was that I should look at having the GP who wrote the letter charged with providing false information to the police, if he had just expressed his opinion then fair enough but parts of his letter are completely incorrect and we have the same medical reports he used and mis-quoted from to confirm this.

 

I still have to see the original GP on Thursday but short of a 180 degree turnaround I can't see him being very helpful. Looks like it's going to have to go legal and messy :(

 

edit.

 

Forgot to add, there's no medical treatment for Aspergers so nobody sees him on a regular basis, we've just had a meeting with his social worker and that was the first time we've heard from him for a year!.

Edited by phaedra1106
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As it stands at the moment his application has been withdrawn so there will be no refusal. I spoke to Durham Firearms this morning and as usual they were very helpful, they can't issue a SGC with a "Must be supervised" condition to someone his age, only to those who are required by law to have it.

 

One thing that came about as a result of a conversation with someone else was that I should look at having the GP who wrote the letter charged with providing false information to the police, if he had just expressed his opinion then fair enough but parts of his letter are completely incorrect and we have the same medical reports he used and mis-quoted from to confirm this.

 

I still have to see the original GP on Thursday but short of a 180 degree turnaround I can't see him being very helpful. Looks like it's going to have to go legal and messy :(

edit.

 

Forgot to add, there's no medical treatment for Aspergers so nobody sees him on a regular basis, we've just had a meeting with his social worker and that was the first time we've heard from him for a year!.

 

 

hmm not sure that will get you anywhere, the doc will have the full weight of the MDU or MPS legal team behind him/her at no cost ( we pay insurance for such things). and reading the post I dont think there is to much there that you will get to stand up in court against his decision.

 

Far better to talk to the practice in a friendly and open way and try to resolve it. ie dont go in there all guns blazing...

 

hope this helps

doc

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As far as i read it you yourself holds a shotgun certificate, this being the case and seeing as your son would need to be supervised anyway why can`t you take him shopping buy a shotgun put it on your licence then "lend" it to him at a section 11 club? i see no difference between that and him having his own licence which lets face it is going to be extremely messy, costly and ultimately damaging all round in many aspects.

I don`t begrudge you defending your son`s right to hold a SGC which yes alot of us take for granted but to some people holding it is a very liberating experience, i know when i first got mine i was overjoyed, now i don`t give it a second thought, i just now think of it as another thing i need to pay money for and do paperwork for once in a while.

While i wish you a certain ammount of luck and without having the proper training can`t give an opinion as to whether he is "safe" etc i do hope that either way it is an ammicable decision that is reached.

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As far as i read it you yourself holds a shotgun certificate, this being the case and seeing as your son would need to be supervised anyway why can`t you take him shopping buy a shotgun put it on your licence then "lend" it to him at a section 11 club? i see no difference between that and him having his own licence which lets face it is going to be extremely messy, costly and ultimately damaging all round in many aspects.

Does your club have the facility to sotre guns on site? could "his" gun be kept there as a "club gun" and his personal assistant could drive him there where another member could keep an eye on him, and go round with him (is it sport or trap he shoots?

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Go and see both doctors and see what the score is.

 

I bet you a tenner the one that acted supportive probably knew full well what the other doctor who wrote the negative report was going to do. It seems like a polite but planned brush off - you will see many an organisation put on a show of good cop bad cop and it's normally so that the good cop can preserve a relationship.

 

Keep it as a nice enquiry from a concerned father. You mention "legal" and the shutters will go up and you will get nowhere apart from spending a bundle of money you won't get back.

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The trouble is the police are all too happy to abdicate responsibility by deferring to the doctors report and most doctors are really quite cowardly and over cautious, protecting their own rear end rather than trying to ensure that their patient has a happy and fulfilled life.

 

Also, most doctors know nothing about shooting. Probably a bit anti and politically correct about the whole thing.

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Also, most doctors know nothing about shooting. Probably a bit anti and politically correct about the whole thing.

 

I wouldn't go that far with that generalisation. There's a few quacks on here and I have found that people in the medical profession aren't as squeemish as most and have no problem with shooting or fishing.

 

I also couldn't blame a doctor for not sticking his neck out in a situation such as this, as unfortunate as it is - would you risk your hard earnt medical career and house for a patient's sport?

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The trouble is the police are all too happy to abdicate responsibility by deferring to the doctors report

Also, most doctors know nothing about shooting.

 

On point one the FEO asks for a doctors opinion and are you suggesting if it is negative then they should over rule them and hand out tickets to all and sundry :o

 

and on the second I'm sure they know a gun can kill in the wrong hands,

 

If you look back through the enquiry into the cumbrian massacre you get an idea they have to be able to justify every part of the licensing procedure if the worst happens, its the way it should be and personally I do feel that us having firearms is a bit of a privilege more than a right. I know a lot won't agree with that but the more slip ups happen the worse it will be for all of us in the long run

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What about Air Rifles? Theres no liscence required, plenty of clubs around to join and for him to make a few friends. Appreciate its not the same, but possibly a way to continue shooting without all the grief and expense of the court case you seem to have in mind.

 

thats seems like a good idea. shooting an air rifle requires the same discipline.

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What about Air Rifles? Theres no liscence required, plenty of clubs around to join and for him to make a few friends. Appreciate its not the same, but possibly a way to continue shooting without all the grief and expense of the court case you seem to have in mind.

 

Top idea :good:

 

100% of the doctors in my practice are now foreign. The last one I saw was asking me to assist in understanding the English on a form! She was just struggling with using the computer and getting the right answers in the right box, struggling with some guidance notes. If she was asked for an opinion by an FEO I guess the answer could be random. Some of our doctors are against shooting and are vegetarian from their reglious background.

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