seeker Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 This is not intended to start a flame fight. but to check if I've not lost the plot!! I was browsing a US Hunting Forum and saw a comment in a post that seemed plain offensive. A UK "shooter" stated that in the UK 'Munjac are vermin (.. but tasty)' A US contributor did query eating '50lb vermin', seems Munties are not known there.. The Deer Acts '61 & 91 and Reform Order 07 (calibre, seasons, licences etc.) seem to say that Muntjac are Deer and thus warrant the same respect as all game .... Whilst all things could become pests or a nuisance if not managed properly, saying they become as rats (or I suppose Prarie Dogs?) seem to somehow devalue the Deer and the Hunt?? Should I just take my medicines and get quietly back on my perch because I'm just being sensitive - or is the idea that Munties should be treated like vermin a bit naff and warrants a response??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_R Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Wording like that almost certainly involves Robbobsam, who has been banned from numerous UK forums. He appears to have little or no real respect for his quarry. Forget about it, much easier that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker Posted February 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Aah ... I've heard that name before .. since I didn't bother reading his other posts, perhaps you're right and a 'delete button ' is called for! thanks for the reply .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colster Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Vermin isn't meant as an insult. It merely refers to a species that "exists out of balance with a human-defined (desired) environment, where they are normally accused of consuming excessive resources (such as feeding on crops, from a farmer's point of view)" In that, Muntjac can be vermin but as you said they do still enjoy the protection of the Deer Act but in the case of Muntjac that only extends to minimum calibre of bullet and the time of day that they can be shot. There is no close season for Muntjac (as they don't have a rut and can breed all year round, if the weather is warm enough) and in areas where they are a real problem, licences can be granted to shoot them at night under a lamp (these licences could in theory be granted for any species of deer). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) Its an interesting one despite the poster being an idiot. As colster says they may fit the definition of vermin but are Deer, they are without doubt damaging to both our native flora and fauna in places and seem to displace native deer at times. People give them a fair respect as they are a good eating deer that is giving increasing amounts of stalking as they spread. Round us they live everywhere towns country wherever there is food, Should they be allowed to spread I don't know I quite like them but is it good for our woodland and other deer species and the answer is probably not. Edited February 23, 2011 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Muntjac are deer, it matters not if you have never seen one or can't move for them they are still deer. All deer do damage to a certain extent, it doesn't make them vermin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 not in the strictest sense but we do have a non native species which ok only does the same damage as other deer but were it another species would be shot out rather than managed. Its got a lot in common with grey squirrels both in terms of damage and pushing out other deer. Its interesting the different management policys that go on, some estates will shoot on sight to stop them getting established others don't. Personally we will never get rid of them now and probably the damage we will see is just at the start as they are spreading strongly as they would when the does are only not pregnant for such a short time. We have a bit of ground classified as a SSSI because of the type of grassland and a rare orchid they have caused real problems on there which is just one example but they are causing issues in our bluebell woods etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 The 'pushing other' deer out gets repeated a lot of forums, I shoot a piece of land that has both roe and muntjac and they stand shoulder to shoulder. I see absolutely no evidence of one driving the other out, as well as shooting them I spend a fair bit of time watching them as well. And it's one of our two indigenous deer species, roe, that are destroying his saplings not the muntjac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colster Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 All deer do damage to a certain extent, it doesn't make them vermin. In the literal sense of the word "vermin", it could well make them vermin depending on the extent of the damage. Vermin is a bit of an emotive word. Interesting what you said about the Roe and Muntjac coexisting though, we've noticed a decline in Roe on one farm which coincided with a big increase in Muntjac. I had put the Roe decline down to the increase in Muntjac and competition for food but I do remember reading somewhere that this actually isn't the case, Roe being taller can cut a higher browse line etc. I'm quite happy to see Muntjac about though as they make for good all year round stalking and taste really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker Posted February 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Interesting points .. a purge of non - indigenii could leave very little wing and hoof variety in shooting. On the vermin issue the Libyan Colonel singled out 'rats and cockroaches' as being at the lowest end of the scale and whichever ways you cut it I find The Muntjac to be worthy of better company. ., The idea of vermin casserole .. Thanks for the ideas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Muntjac are fully covered under the Deer Acts and are deer, they just breed all year and have no season. For their size they are possibly the most destructive of all deer for the foodstuffs they eat. Vermin has a definition and frankly I can see why they could be called vermin, nevertheless, in my book it is a toss up between Roe and Muntjac as to which are the best eaters of all 6 of the basic deer we find in the UK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorfolkPoacher Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I think it's s case of one mans vermin is another mans trophey. We seem to have a recent increase in muntjac on the estate, coinciding with severe damage to our woodlands young and old, orchids and native ground flora is taking a bashing too. We have also noticed a severe decline in roe numbers too. In some places in thw uk foxes are valued as vermin controllers on others eradicated when it suits us. On my estate we have a small heard of reds which are left alone and observed for pleasure only. However on the next door farm they are shot bacause of the crop damage and treated like vermin. I believe the definition vermin is one applied to individual circumstance rather then species as a whole. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Personally I think the trophy issue is a side matter as opposed to why they are on the ground, their history and the part they play in the UK countryside. I went out for a drink with some mates last night drove 15 miles back across lanes and counted 12 muntjac on the verges on the way back. They are everywhere here, it gives some good access to stalking and cheaply done as they are a very prolific species but there is a bigger picture of what are they doing to our woods long term and indeed is there an effect on native deer or not. The main history is obviously they are all relatives of escapees and have spread at an amazing rate and will no doubt do so till they cover the whole UK. They are a bonus to stalkers but are they really a bonus to our wildlife and bio diversity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 It is your 'job' as a stalker, or hunter in general to assess the numbers and manage the balance accordingly. When I was just shooting Muntjac only on my land, I had to more or less shoo Roe out of the way so I could get a shot at the deer I was after culling, they stand, literally shoulder to shoulder. As Roe seem to focus more of eating leaves whereas Muntjac seem to prefer flora so they don't compete for food in that respect. As the land is just small parcel I have managed to made a dramatic inroad into the Muntjac numbers so much so I only see one or two now each visit, now previously it could have been 10 or more. I haven't noticed and increase in the Roe population it anything I would say it dropped slightly, but they are most likely being shot on neighbouring estates so of course that may be a cause of the lower numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Burpster Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Muntjac are deer, it matters not if you have never seen one or can't move for them they are still deer. All deer do damage to a certain extent, it doesn't make them vermin. Here here....! Well said that man. Yes Muntjac are on the increase. In some areas there is a lot of them, but they are a wonderful creature, an excellent and well respected adversary and yes, correctly prepared they are wonderful meat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Vermin: Wild mammals and birds which are harmful to crops, farm animals or may carry disease. Thats what the Oxford English Dictionary says anyway. Muntjac are not indigenous, breed all year thus can increase in numbers at an alarming rate and eat alot of rare plants in ancient woodland but its really down to the individual on what you call them. I have shooting on a tree nursery where all deer are classed, by the owners, as vermin and treated with zero tolerance, on an arable farm were I shoot pigeons the owner doesnt want the small population of Roe and Muntjac shot or even disturbed as his wife likes to see them trotting about. Many of us like to see the Muntjac because as the numbers increase it gives us more access to cheap stalking and enjoyment,I will only shoot the does if I have to. They make real good eating, I personally don't see them as vermin, no they are upgraded to furry critters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 In the area around Woburn they are plentifull and are considered somewhat of a pest. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 So like fallow and reds in some parts of the country then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 No such thing as vermin or pests in the animal world . Only the hunter and the hunted . Man in his wisdom has classed some species as pest or vermin because they cause damage to crops and forestry and country gardens causing us to spend money on the control of these mammals and birds to protect our profits . Mrs harnser has always caused me to spend money over many years and I would hardly class her as vermin or a pest . I hate the word vermin or pest relating to an animal ,after all they are only trying to make a living . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 No such thing as vermin or pests in the animal world . Only the hunter and the hunted . Man in his wisdom has classed some species as pest or vermin because they cause damage to crops and forestry and country gardens causing us to spend money on the control of these mammals and birds to protect our profits . Mrs harnser has always caused me to spend money over many years and I would hardly class her as vermin or a pest . I hate the word vermin or pest relating to an animal ,after all they are only trying to make a living . Harnser . ........ very unpleasant and destructive people ( also from the Oxford English Dictionary),my friend there are such thing as vermin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker Posted February 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Seems as tho' Hansard has a report on British 'vermin' mammals. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200203/ldhansrd/vo031008/text/31008w02.htm .. So: rats, mice, stoats, rabbits, grey squirrels, mink... It begs the question " how far would you stretch the vermin and fox condition of a FAC ' ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 on that note I had pest control on my .223 and did get asked by my FEO if I'd had many muntjac with it when I went for my .243, whether it was a trick question or not I don't know as I just said I hadn't as I didn't have deer listed and he left it at that. We used to have vermin and they changed it to pests no idea what the difference really is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Billy is a pest, squirrels are vermin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb1 Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Wish they'd hurry up and get to cornwall they look and sound like great fun to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toka_shigazu Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Likewise over into West Lancs... atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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