Vince Green Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Is there a problem with approving it or does it not work? When you vacinate a person or animal you give them a mild form of the disease which they recover from but then they produce their own antibodies. The test for TB tests for antibodies so once vacinated the cow (in this case) will test positive and cannot be sold for food. I think its European Law rather than British Law. I don't think they can use the milk either. There is a problem with badger culling which nobody seems to have pointed out. Badgers are shy and very elusive creatures. How the heck are they going to find them all? Its either going to be very slow and labour intensive or ineffective. OK the farmers might know where the setts are on their land but what about the woods and other land? The only people likely to know are the badger watchers and they are not going to help. Edited July 19, 2011 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alastair0903 Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 **** ! my feelings exactly ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted July 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 The way that I see it in the end it comes down to what your priorities are if its protect the farm animals then do not pretend that we care about wild animals. Do the job properly badgers are bad rabbits are bad pigeons are bad rats are bad lets start at lands end and work our way through the whole country and just kill everything that is bad for farm animals and crops. Problem solved bung a few badgers etc in zoos there you have it problem solved oh dear I forgot if we kill all of the pests there will be nothing left for us to shoot except fore those with plenty of money who can pay to shoot pheasants and dear in Scotland. What a shame for the rest of us still we can always take up new hobbies anyone for tennis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 I would be very suprised if they could be culled in any sufficient numbers to make a difference. Its been done before and didnt work because all wildlife reservoirs potentially harbour BTB bacteria. I think it will prove to be utter folly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin128 Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 IMHO, farmers should be allowed to kill badgers on their land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justintime Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 There would be no need to eradicate them completely,There hardly rare...They just need controlling like they were before the badger act of 1973..Cases of BTB were under control in the early 70's....But then the government brought in the badger act to combat badger baiting...Yet again another knee-jerk reaction...But you all know this already...Must be frustrating for the cattle farmers.especially the dairy farmer that have built up herds over many years This is spot on look at the stats pre and post badger act Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper3 Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 The way that I see it in the end it comes down to what your priorities are if its protect the farm animals then do not pretend that we care about wild animals. Do the job properly badgers are bad rabbits are bad pigeons are bad rats are bad lets start at lands end and work our way through the whole country and just kill everything that is bad for farm animals and crops. Problem solved bung a few badgers etc in zoos there you have it problem solved oh dear I forgot if we kill all of the pests there will be nothing left for us to shoot except fore those with plenty of money who can pay to shoot pheasants and dear in Scotland. What a shame for the rest of us still we can always take up new hobbies anyone for tennis. To be honest FWD, in my eyes its not about shooting everything,its more of keeping a balance, if your fields are overrun with rabbits , then thin the numbers down, within 15 fields we have 4 badger sets and my farmer keeps cattle, I think he would feel happier with just 1 set... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignoel Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 we dont have TB on any of our farms Do you have cattle? no cattle it is just a farm like you see in a pretty picture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 It is surprising how many farmers have asked me to shoot badgers on their land. Some are not so concerned about BTB as the are about the damage they do to the land! I should add at this stage that I have never yet shot a badger and never will while they are protected but I can understand why I am asked to shoot them - I value my SGC and my FAC too much to go out and break the law! I would welcome a Controlled Badger Cull (under license) but I do not see any way that this is going to happen as it could not be accurately monitored. If they just took badgers protection status away then we would quite likely have every Tom, **** and Harry out with whatever gun they had shooting badgers "willy nilly" and there would be yet another public outcry when the furry friend huggers started finding wounded badgers because of poor marksmanship or being shot with an unsuitable calibre. I do see the need for a badger cull but I just don't know how it could be worked. Since badgers were given protected status they have grown in numbers and, as they have no natural predators, their numbers will continue to grow. The problems of BTB are always going to be a point of contention, as will the damage they do to the land! Nature usually has a way of controlling wildlife and keeping numbers (To a certain extent) in proportion, but I do not see much possibility of this happening with badgers as they are such strong hardy creatures. I agree with one of the previous poster that badgers are very secretive nocturnal animals but if there were to be a "licensed cull" locating them should not be too much of a problem if you know your land and have a reasonable degree of fieldcraft and knowledge of wildlife - But who would decide which shooters (If the licensed culling were to be done by shooters) would have the necessary skills and be suitable to do the job efficiently and humanely - Would ther need to be something similar to the DSC1 test to show that a shooter was capable of doing the job PROPERLY, SAFELY and HUMANELY? As for the suggestion that farmers who have lost their stock through diseases like BTB "diversifying" and leaving other countries to supply us with beef and other dairy products (Let's face it cattle are not only bred for beef). I am sorry but that is a ridiculous suggestion and even if it were to happen it would only result in prices soarin yet again! Maybe they are suggesting that the same should apply to farmers that have lost their stock through Foot and Mouth, Bird Flu, Swine Fever or other diseases should also do the same! Will the person or persons that suggest this be happy when there are no more livestock farmers left in this country and the land that those farmers relied on for a living (Land which might not suitable for growing crops) is handed over to housing developements (Building houses that people can not afford to buy)? Will there be a time when farming is just another part of past history that out children will never have the pleasure to see or the green fields and land that were once farmed no longer exists and Britain exists as just a "Concrete Jungle"? I certainly hope not! I honestly don't know what the answer is to the badger situation in relation to farming and BTB, but the government needs to do something about it soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I would hazard a guess Frenchie that the sale of live capture traps would take off somewhat. By far the best way of catching up with out nocturnal friends and making sure they aren't just injured. Unless you live in an affected area and farm cattle its hard to understand the feelings when you get your herd clear bring no new animals onto the farm and still it gets re infected. Round here its not an issue as we don't have a problem but even the badger population seems to have issues that there are so many run over at the moment. Whether thats over population and having to move closer to more populated areas I don't know. I like watching them but if I was shooting on land with a problem wouldn't have a problem culling them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) I agree with you Al4x, live cage traps might be an answer, but how many would you need to run in an area where there is an overly high population of badgers, which is the case in some areas? We do not have any significcant problem with cattle contacting BTB through badgers (or any in other way) in our area so that side of the argument does not effect me too much. However we need to think about a much larger picture - What about the farmers that are being seriously effected and what if BTB were to be spread by badgers to the areas that were not previously effected, would that make us think in a different way? (That comment is not directed at you or anyone else, it is just meant as a general question.) When we are taking about protecting the farmers livelyhood I don't think we should just think about what directly effects us in our particular area. Farming is a major part of Britain's heritage and the farmers need to be able to protect their livelyhoods. Even though BTB is not "common" in our area if there were to be a badger cull in our area I (Just like you and a great many other shooters throught the UK) would have no problems in shooting badgers! Edit: I have to agree with "Justintime", we would not need to "totally eradicate" badgers, just control them. I do not believe that any one of us has the God given right to totally eradicate any species of animal and send it in to extiction! It is all about control and reaching (And maintaining) a "balance of nature"! Edited July 20, 2011 by Frenchieboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 simple answer re numbers of traps is a fair few but its the best and easiest way to do it, one things for sure versus the cost of repeated TB outbreaks the cost is cheap. The simple thing is with this cull is its targeted so basically where you have TB you "assume" the badgers have it and cull them. They are left alone in areas that don't have it so you in theory don't get an influx of infected ones into an area that had uninfected badgers. Thats why it won't affect things here as my farmers tractors don't tend to get TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I think that the numbers are where the problem lies. I'm no expert on TB but there are a lot of badgers around because they have no natural predators here. Once you remove the human control with silly laws you're screwed. I always have said and will always think that the public have too much say. Whether something is popular or not shouldn't matter and the government should do what is right rather than what gets the most votes. There are several things even a political numpty like me can think of that are great examples... The banning of badger baiting The banning of fox hunting The banning of handguns The banning of semi-auto rifles and high capacity shotguns None of these were done because it was the right thing to do. They were all pushed through to get votes and that is seriously wrong. Governments should have panels of experts to advise on matters and their votes should have to be adhered to. At the end of the day the voting public have little idea what they are talking about most of the time and will always lean towards what they want rather than what is right. That's no way to run a country! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 so you are talking about the government who were voted in by the in theory majority then doing what it likes or is advised in the face of that majority. I've no real problem with 3 out of those 4 being banned and though banned there obviously are legal get out clauses applied to the majority of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosshair Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Before the badger protection act farmers, gamekeepers etc kept the badger population under control. Now they have become too numerous, badgers live a social family life and whole families live in the same sett. They are well known for changing their bedding quite frequently and live in a very warm humid atmosphere, and living in close proximity it is the ideal breeding place for TB. Farmers that have their cattle culled through TB suffer a loss, and the farmer cannot sell his remaining stock until his herd is re-tested and becomes TB free, for some farmers this has taken years, the farm being practically on stop. I read recently of badgers becoming infected with mange, this was supposedly a first, and went on to say that there were no previous recorded incidents. It went on to say that mange was introduced to the fox population in Bristol in the 1990's, the result was a 95% kill rate, I wonder how that will affect the badger in the future?. Farmers can cull their farm animals that have TB, but what happens when the deer population become infected, just does not bear thinking about. Protecting the badgers has not benefited either the badger or the countryside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I read recently of badgers becoming infected with mange, this was supposedly a first, and went on to say that there were no previous recorded incidents. It went on to say that mange was introduced to the fox population in Bristol in the 1990's, the result was a 95% kill rate, I wonder how that will affect the badger in the future?. Farmers can cull their farm animals that have TB, but what happens when the deer population become infected, just does not bear thinking about. Protecting the badgers has not benefited either the badger or the countryside. I hadn't read that about badgers becoming effected by Mange, if this is right then maybe it is nature's way of controlling the numbers - If it has the same result as it did in the Fox population in the Clifton area of Bristol! I know of the situation in Bristol that you are refering to, it was in the Clifton area where a lot of people were going out and feeding the foxes by hand. (How stupid) As I recall they did a TV program about them called "Town Fox"! Mange wiped out about 95% of the foxes and they now "seem" to be in "acceptable numbers" there! You have a very good point about what would happen if the deer population in the UK were to get infected with TB - The consequences of that really don't bare thinking about in relation to livestock (And particularly cattle) farming! I personally think that the last sentence in your post says it all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Deer are different they don't catch it as readily or pass on as easily as badgers. There is a lot more to it than that but generally its a small risk deer have tb. Not unheard of but if it was going to be an issue it would be already Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Deer are different they don't catch it as readily or pass on as easily as badgers. There is a lot more to it than that but generally its a small risk deer have tb. Not unheard of but if it was going to be an issue it would be already Fair point al4x but could this not be said when they originally put the protection order on badgers or did they not think of doing any research into the possible consequeces of putting a protection order on badgers at the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 If the decision makers aren't very careful, this is all going to end in tears. Personally, I'm not too sure this is going to happen. It seems to me that every so often the government offers a little breast bite to keep the farmers on side and then backs off again. Can't find it now, but I know that I read yesterday that this would be the job of highly qualified stalkers. With the greatest of respect to this group, the only stalkers experienced at shooting in the dark are not the ones that are ideally required for this work. A fully licensed poacher - does't bear thinking about! This group were chosen because they can demonstrate a given level of marksmanship. Undeniable. However, I think it could probably be argued that an experienced fox shooter would be the better bet. It has been mentioned that a level of training will be required (who can find the position of the heart on a badger profile?). If this training was undertaken by both groups, I can't help but think that the fox lads would still end up as the better option. Fortunately, we have the GCT and their 2006 report to Defra on this whole shooting issue will stand whoever it is that does the foul deed in good stead in,as said, the unlikely event, that it actually goes ahead. The government could do no better in the eyes of the general population, which, of course, is where the votes are, if they could continue prevaricating until the vaccination situation is finally sorted. Probably academic anyway really, as if the dairy farmers don't start getting a decent price for their product any time soon, they'll have all packed it in. One final point; when I was doing the Badger Carcass Survey some years ago, many farmers expressed the opinion that the badgers were following the maize. Interesting theory, they certainly like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 don't quote me but I don't think the link was properly established or that it was such an issue back then. Its funny how this world works a keeper I know was part of a trial partly funded by the RSPB and partly by the badger mob, that was to look at effects on ground nesting birds. badgers were culled in his area and not in a reasonably close area. When it found they had a severe impact on them the research was never published. It goes on all the time different agendas a bit like this, culling may not work and is just a trial but there are major hurdles to the publics simple answer of vaccinate everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegasus bridge Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 nice mapping of the TB problem over time; http://www.defra.gov.uk/animal-diseases/files/bovine-tb-maps.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosshair Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Frenchieboy, The article on the fox mange is in the "British Farming Forum", Page (2) titled "fox numbers", interesting reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosshair Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 And as for the vaccination of badgers, there is not one, and one may not be available for ten years. The talk of vaccinating badgers is obviously playing for time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaniels Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Sadly I have personal experience of the TB, and the effects it can have on farming, to the point that my other half's father has out of 150 animal last year he is down to 15. I will not go into this as I don't wish put on a public forum the whole sorry details, but they were not cattle. What has surprised us was that our animals are not in contact with cattle, there is no boarding farmer that has cattle that come into contact with our animals. Our animals do not leave site unless sold. Which sadly hasn't happened for a few years now. Anyway the point of my post, is that I don't believe shooting badgers will have the right effect, they are a family animal. If shooting were to take place it would be difficult to make sure that every badger from one sett are shot. If this particular sett has BT then the remaining animals would go feral and possible fight with other badgers from other sets, thus infecting a possible clean sett. In my opinion greater investigation and science should be put into working out which setts are clean and which are not. In one area on the farm we have a valley surrounded around the top sides with woods, the whole area is 35 acres. In this 35 acres we have no less than 5 different setts. From the amount of walking/shooting/working I do in this particular valley the setts vary on how clean they look. Some are very clean, grass straw not left around the entrances to the holes, the lavatories are further from there holes and they appear cleaner as in they are quite particular about were they are doing there number twos. A couple of the other setts are nothing like this, there is straw/grass all around the openings they are cr#pping just outside and around the setts and not clearing new earth out much or even re digging collapsed entrances as soon as it happens. If further evidence can be found to be able to tell the difference between a 'clean sett' and 'dirty sett' then would it not be easier to eradicate the dirty setts by surveying areas (gassing)? If this doesn't work then shooting could be the only answer, in terms of cost, the government don't appear to be interested dealing with the matter once and for all. Which is a shame because it is spreading faster and faster. I'm also aware of domestic animals (cats and dogs) being treated for the disease, and a particular abattoir dealing in a lot of horse meat and finding it in them, this was kept quiet by Defra.... It would take a human death for Defra/government to investigate the issue fully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) This has some interesting info in it http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2011/07/20/127918/TB-Eradication-Group-praises-39sound-plan39.htm and this more about who can do it etc http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2011/07/20/127909/39Experts-only39-required-for-badger-cull.htm Edited July 20, 2011 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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