pigeonstew Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 been given 75 21g cartridges in size 7 n half..been told that there no go for pigeons only clays ..others are saying they will be ok for pigeons whilst decoying close ranges..will they or wont they ???? :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Normally, they are best kept for clays. However, as you have 21gms, you've got about the same number of pellets as 32 gms of 6.5 shot - a good pigeon cartridge. Consequently, if you've got the self discipline to stay within 30 yds and use some open choke - TC by Imp, say, you should kill without mince being the end product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 they actually should pattern tigher anyway than a 32g #6 load. however, give them a go, you dont like them, dont use them again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 they actually should pattern tigher anyway than a 32g #6 load. however, give them a go, you dont like them, dont use them again. Precisely, hence the need for the open choke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 been given 75 21g cartridges in size 7 n half..been told that there no go for pigeons only clays ..others are saying they will be ok for pigeons whilst decoying close ranges..will they or wont they ???? :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: Whoever told you that enjoys missing clays . 21 gram loads are supposed to help with spiralling shooting costs whilst still being able to deliver clay breaking performance. They fail at the former as you can buy good 28 gram loads very nearly the same price, and only just manage to scrape into the latter so long as you don`t get too ambitious beyond 25-30 yards. Loads of people out there believe they pattern better because they have less lead , but none I know has yet had the balls to use them in a serious comp or registered to prove the point. As for pigeon, keep the range close and you`ll be OK, they are not the right load though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Whoever told you that enjoys missing clays . 21 gram loads are supposed to help with spiralling shooting costs whilst still being able to deliver clay breaking performance. They fail at the former as you can buy good 28 gram loads very nearly the same price, and only just manage to scrape into the latter so long as you don`t get too ambitious beyond 25-30 yards. Loads of people out there believe they pattern better because they have less lead , but none I know has yet had the balls to use them in a serious comp or registered to prove the point. As for pigeon, keep the range close and you`ll be OK, they are not the right load though. I always thought they were for females, people with genuine recoil affected conditions and mincers?? So girls, gimps and g a y s Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 I always thought they were for females, people with genuine recoil affected conditions and mincers?? So girls, gimps and g a y s Mark Fancy leaving out Shemales . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Re Hamster's bit about less lead/better pattern. The people who really know have nearly all died and those that are left probably can't afford the cartridges any more. It is a crying shame that the 20 bore took off the way it did. Don't get me wrong, they're a super gun. It's just a pity that a similar weighted gun with a similar load (excluding those poor unfortunates that having bought the 20, then try and stuff a 12 bore load into it) already in existance produces vastly superior patterns. 2" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjimlad Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 I am v happy with the White Gold 21g load on clays, it has achieved some cracking breaks at a decent distance. I was batting a quartering springing teal out the sky, only last Sunday. I'd be confident using them on those pigeons that really come in close to the decoys, open their wings as if to land, or try to land in the sitty tree above your head. The long crossers though would be something different. Pick your birds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 iv used them for pigeon shooting,and had some good shots with them,good for decoying go on and use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moors Man Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 I am v happy with the White Gold 21g load on clays, it has achieved some cracking breaks at a decent distance. I was batting a quartering springing teal out the sky, only last Sunday. I'd be confident using them on those pigeons that really come in close to the decoys, open their wings as if to land, or try to land in the sitty tree above your head. The long crossers though would be something different. Pick your birds... Here, here. I have used Hull Comp X 21g at many clay grounds. Including Grimsthorpe where you get some seriously challenging long range targets. I was getting as good breaks as anyone else. People do have a confidence issue with less lead (25%), but I understand everyone said exactly the same when the 28g limit was introduced. Not sure about using them on live game though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) I know someone who uses them on pigeons and close in it's OK. In terms of hitting clays, competitions aside, I would have thought that the better shot with a well-fitted gun will score more with 21s than a less good shot using 28s, surely. Some people like a big bang and a big thump because it makes them feel better (and less of a mincer obviously), but it isn't the bang and the thump that makes you hit the clay is it? Edited July 27, 2011 by Thunderbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 In terms of hitting clays, competitions aside, I would have thought that the better shot with a well-fitted gun will score more with 21s than a less good shot using 28s, surely. That's quite probable, but if two shooters of the same ability were to shoot against each other, one using 21g and the other using 28g who do you think would score more then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 That's quite probable, but if two shooters of the same ability were to shoot against each other, one using 21g and the other using 28g who do you think would score more then? realistically it should be the same over 25-50 targets the person shooting 21g may have more chippy breaks, but over 500 in a day the person shooting 21g would probably be less tired towards the end and may score better. Very hard to get 2 shooters of the same ability. As there are only 75 of them 3 boxes why not just use them on clays? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) realistically it should be the same over 25-50 targets the person shooting 21g may have more chippy breaks, but over 500 in a day the person shooting 21g would probably be less tired towards the end and may score better. Very hard to get 2 shooters of the same ability. Well I guess that would depend on the type/distance of targets thrown? The fact that none of the big boys use them in competition says it all for me though. Edit: To say I agree, use them on clays....not pigeons. whatever next Edited July 27, 2011 by poontang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) That's quite probable, but if two shooters of the same ability were to shoot against each other, one using 21g and the other using 28g who do you think would score more then? That's a good question and I would like to see it tested. I don't use 21s myself any more (I got into them when I started shooting clays as I had an incredibly light field gun and it was just off-putting as a beginner - with a rubbish gun mount - getting so banged about using e.g. Kent Velocitys in 28). Do you think range is an issue with 21/28s, or is it something else? EDIT: I suppose what I'm asking from a technical viewpoint is a gun fired at a target, same gun, same shooter, 21 and 28, the 21 misses and the 28 hits - why would this be? Am I making sense?? Edited July 27, 2011 by Thunderbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) Do you think range is an issue with 21/28s, or is it something else? EDIT: I suppose what I'm asking from a technical viewpoint is a gun fired at a target, same gun, same shooter, 21 and 28, the 21 misses and the 28 hits - why would this be? Am I making sense?? Range is dependant on shot size and velocity, not load. The simple reason a 28g load is more effective is it contains 25% more shot. In a shot size 7.5 it's about 100 extra pellets. Edited to say, Kent Velocity's are probably the punchiest loads you could have put through your field gun. No wonder you changed to 21g Edited July 27, 2011 by poontang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Know plenty of shhoters who find Hull Comp X 21's very,very good for clays,but I've never trie dthem on live quarry so can't comment. Kent Velocities are renowne dfor being punchy through an o/u,but I like them through my semi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Yeah the Kents were what was on offer at the ground so like most newcomers I just used what they had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant hit rabbits 123 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Offering Kents to the new commers isn't the best idea in my opinion, mainly becuase if you're young, female or just small (myself) they can be rather off putting! In regards to 21g on pigeons, I've been told to avoid 28g for walk about pigeoning and go for 30/32 gram minimum, let alone 21g. However, I have no experience of decoying, so I wont comment on that respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Whoever told you that enjoys missing clays . 21 gram loads are supposed to help with spiralling shooting costs whilst still being able to deliver clay breaking performance. They fail at the former as you can buy good 28 gram loads very nearly the same price, and only just manage to scrape into the latter so long as you don`t get too ambitious beyond 25-30 yards. Loads of people out there believe they pattern better because they have less lead , but none I know has yet had the balls to use them in a serious comp or registered to prove the point. As for pigeon, keep the range close and you`ll be OK, they are not the right load though. i used them at the norf v sarf shoot and got a 71.... I always thought they were for females, people with genuine recoil affected conditions and mincers?? So girls, gimps and g a y s Mark guess you mean me then?.....im a gimp but then we cant all be manly like yourself.... I use 21g because it seems im a gimp......use them for sporting/ABT/DTL.....im no digweed but do ok.... shaun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonstew Posted July 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) clays it is then ..got a farm where i sit next to some old farm machinary and a sitty tree ...cant be more than 20 feet i put out a few decoys today and used my aa s410 air rifle i was getting them down so close i couldnt see them through the scope at its lowest setting ..think 21g at that range might just shred em ben using 30g cartridges and im ok with them so ill stick with em ..cheers for the advive folks Edited July 27, 2011 by pigeonstew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COACH Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) Absolutely spot on Shaun. Its not the cartridge at all, its the guy behind the gun that has let doubt into his thought pattern and routine. I can hit any target with a 21g that I can hit with a punchy 28g. And on simo pairs I hit even more with the 21g because the lack of recoil is so much less that you can get onto the second bird that much quicker and smoother. They are awesome for skeet. I'v also shot DTL and other trap trap stuff with them and haven't dropped any more than with the 28g. The main reason the top boys don't like them is because as I'v said above, it brings doubt into their thought pattern and routine and that is fatal for a top shot. How ever if they went out and used them for a few months until they had confidence in them, which they will have given time, they will see the difference is negligible. Iv used the 21g HULL COMP X on pigeons but I used 3/4 + 3/4 for the sake of a clean kill each time.....worked a treat. Though I must say I usually use a number 5 shot for all my rough shooting. Edited July 27, 2011 by COACH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 EDIT: I suppose what I'm asking from a technical viewpoint is a gun fired at a target, same gun, same shooter, 21 and 28, the 21 misses and the 28 hits - why would this be? Am I making sense?? Good question and very easily answered. If you`re a fat ****** 99% of the time it`s because you`re eating too many crisps. Yes yes thyroid problems can be an unfortunate affliction for some, but we`re digressing too much already. Reduce the amount you put into your mouth and the weight will fall off. It`s exactly the same with shooting and shells, within reason. Coach is right, if you shoot 42 gram loads through a 7 lbs gun you will tire easily and a 28 gram load may allow you to potentially beat the formers scoring capacity. However, and this is a very important however, with 28 gram load we have arrived at the perfect weight of load/recoil V human ability to absorb recoil V clay breaking ability. The reason 21 gram loads MISS more targets is that they have LESS crisps inside them, a point that is unfathomably and bombastically ignored by their advocates . Coach is also right that if you are an average shooter shooting average (Skeet) clays up close you won`t notice any difference. A competition shooter used to shooting edge on clays at 35 yards plus all the time will notice the difference within the first half dozen shots. They are not wrong, they will break clays but have you ever wondered why they don`t put Amir Khan and Wladimir whssisname in the same ring? It`s the weight difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu nesling Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 cant see a problem with 21g's for pigeon as long as you are sensible with range. 30 yards i reckon. used with 1/2 choke or more it will give just as many pellets on target as 30g/6's as someone has said. and give you less of a belt!! sticking with the kents though as i get good clean kills with them through 1/2+ full on a little sbs, just kicks a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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