minghis Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Thats happened to me, out lamping rabbits and came across a bunch of kids with air rifles. seems the farmer just made it a free for all, went home early that night, thinking what if...... And this is exactly why I will never go out on my permissions without phoning the farmer first - and he will never have anyone shooting unless they phone him first. If I can't get hold of him I don't go out, simple as that. On the other hand, I do have permissions where the farmer says there is no need to call, just carry on whenever, no-one else comes out so you'll be OK. And then I find out that a load of others all have permission there, and he's told them all the same thing... bloody annoying. Even more so when the farmer has a mixture of owned and rented, and they assume that they can give you permission for the rented when the landowner has people out too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I never quite get the mixed permission thing, if your shots have a safe backstop it shouldn't really matter surely? Try driven shooting with 20 or 30 other rifle/shotgun shooters all around you. If you stick to the rules, no one needs to get hurt. I would, and have, happily shot with on the same piece of land with a dozen other people I know and trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR1960 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I never quite get the mixed permission thing, if your shots have a safe backstop it shouldn't really matter surely? Try driven shooting with 20 or 30 other rifle/shotgun shooters all around you. If you stick to the rules, no one needs to get hurt. I would, and have, happily shot with on the same piece of land with a dozen other people I know and trust. Yes, and thereby lays the problem, as per my original post. Not, in the dark with loads of other people running around you don't even know are there. YOU maybe a safe shot but you have no idea what the hell the rest of them are up to. On both occassions my hosts had no idea there were other people with permissions on the land, let alone that they were there shooting at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minghis Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I never quite get the mixed permission thing, if your shots have a safe backstop it shouldn't really matter surely? Try driven shooting with 20 or 30 other rifle/shotgun shooters all around you. If you stick to the rules, no one needs to get hurt. I would, and have, happily shot with on the same piece of land with a dozen other people I know and trust. At night with a rimfire using subs... and someone else doing the same thing and you don't know each other are there... with all due respect, I fail to understand how you believe no-one could get hurt. Agreed, daylight, shotguns or even a group out zeroing or something similar could be perfectly safe if you know where each other are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfa taf Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I just cant imagine being in this situation how the hell do you cope with life after doing this http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6160586/Hunters-regret-will-last-forever-police As it has been mentioned before, accidents will happen , in any sport , even in ordinary things one does every day ie driving etc , however careful one is. I have been shooting for as long as I can remember and so has my older brother and we both pride ourselves in thinking that we know what we are doing and that we are very careful and safe . Yet once we were shooting Doves and when we finished shooting we walked back to the car, which was parked only a few meters away , I opened the trunk of the car to get our stuff in , I was using an O/U and my brother a S/A both made safe by having taken the carts out OR SO WE THOUGHT. I was standing next to my brother when he pulled the trigger before he would put the gun in the slip only to hear this ear splitting noise as the gun was only a few inches away from my head , fortunately pointing in the sky. A silly mistake I admit , which could have been detrimental .So all I can say is , one can only be as careful as possible and hope that no such silly mistakes will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 As it has been mentioned before, accidents will happen , in any sport , even in ordinary things one does every day ie driving etc , however careful one is. I have been shooting for as long as I can remember and so has my older brother and we both pride ourselves in thinking that we know what we are doing and that we are very careful and safe . Yet once we were shooting Doves and when we finished shooting we walked back to the car, which was parked only a few meters away , I opened the trunk of the car to get our stuff in , I was using an O/U and my brother a S/A both made safe by having taken the carts out OR SO WE THOUGHT. I was standing next to my brother when he pulled the trigger before he would put the gun in the slip only to hear this ear splitting noise as the gun was only a few inches away from my head , fortunately pointing in the sky. A silly mistake I admit , which could have been detrimental .So all I can say is , one can only be as careful as possible and hope that no such silly mistakes will happen. May be an idea to post that on the thread about semis vs o/u... that would have been nigh on impossible with an o/u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 At night with a rimfire using subs... and someone else doing the same thing and you don't know each other are there... with all due respect, I fail to understand how you believe no-one could get hurt. Agreed, daylight, shotguns or even a group out zeroing or something similar could be perfectly safe if you know where each other are. So at night you fire a rimfire not knowing where your bullet is going? I wasn't referring to specifically to shotguns, I shoot in groups with centerfires regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 If you shoot at "deer" at 2-30AM ................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) easy mistake to make back of someones head and a deer are so alike KW Nice, no one sets out to have an accident yet they happen. All of us as humans are prone to making errors whether we like it or not. It is inevitable that you and I will, at some point, screw up due to a momentary lapse of concentration or something distracting us. Hopefully no one will get killed and it will provide some sobering thoughts to digest and learn from. Edited December 20, 2011 by Laird Lugton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Nice, no one sets out to have an accident yet they happen. All of us as humans are prone to making errors whether we like it or not. It is inevitable that you and I will, at some point, screw up due to a momentary lapse of concentration or something distracting us. Hopefully no one will get killed and it will provide some sobering thoughts to digest and learn from. It was not an accident it was an intended action on an unidentified target he had the choice squeeze or not, the gun did not go off "accidentally" the trigger was pulled, and the cardinal rule of 100% ID before you do was not used, if you cant see that you should not have a gun end of KW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docholiday Posted December 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Nice, no one sets out to have an accident yet they happen. All of us as humans are prone to making errors whether we like it or not. It is inevitable that you and I will, at some point, screw up due to a momentary lapse of concentration or something distracting us. Hopefully no one will get killed and it will provide some sobering thoughts to digest and learn from. Dont worry Laird wouldnt bother, He is so perfect (in his own mind) He has completely missed the point, still with any luck he might go and join his comrades In Korea to do a bit of mourning for there lost leader :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 It was not an accident it was an intended action on an unidentified target he had the choice squeeze or not, the gun did not go off "accidentally" the trigger was pulled, and the cardinal rule of 100% ID before you do was not used, if you cant see that you should not have a gun end of KW Ah but your making an assumption there, that the level of education in gun safety is the same as ours and Kent has provided this insight into NZ firearms training: Considering the amount of people actually resident in NZ thier shooting accidents are a big issue. I have thier Safety vidio produced by NZ police and deerstalkers association, backstops are never mentioned and many cringeworthy shots are taken in foresty. To be fair thier road deaths are also way larger than you could credit, must be something in the water. If this shot fitted in with his mental model of a safe shot he took it believing that was a deer.....therefore one could contend that it was an accident. If there is poor firearms training required to own a gun the system is partly at fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) Dont worry Laird wouldnt bother, He is so perfect (in his own mind) He has completely missed the point, still with any luck he might go and join his comrades In Korea to do a bit of mourning for there lost leader :lol: oh dear getting personal that will hurt me (not) :lol: as to missing the point sorry sunshine its you who missed it with your analogy of an unintended firing against letting one-off at an unidentified target,an intentional act that lead's to the unintentional death of someone is not an accident, its manslaughter simple as. those who know me know there are no grey area's its black or white even to the point of my beloved football club, and note I suffer fools poorly so you wont be on my card list this xmas KW Edited December 20, 2011 by kdubya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minghis Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 So at night you fire a rimfire not knowing where your bullet is going? I wasn't referring to specifically to shotguns, I shoot in groups with centerfires regularly. I don't appreciate the insult. End of conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Nothing to get upset about, it was a simple question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 those who know me know there are no grey area's its black or white even to the point of my beloved football club, and note I suffer fools poorly so you wont be on my card list this xmas KW Don't take up accident investigation as nothing is black & white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 2.30 AM so at night, fair enough in new zealand but it sayes that he thought he saw the eyes reflect. do hunam eyes reflect under a lamp likedeer eye. if yes then how can he see the eyes when he was shoot in the back of the head. .22 ruger semiauto as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alastair0903 Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 No its a fantastic area for hunting in New Zealand. it is ,i have worked in the area . sadly these things happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 I would, and have, happily shot with on the same piece of land with a dozen other people I know and trust. I'm in the same boat. As long as the shooters are decent safe shots there isn't an issue. How this guys shot his mate and how he must be feeling?.... Well how he must be feeling is pretty obvious and I do feel sorry for him. As daft as the shot was and no matter how easily this could have been avoided, he still did it. He did it by accident and must feel awful - poor guy! I can't remember who said it but someone mentioned the lack of safety training there? At the end of the day we take firearm safety to a point where it can be rediculous here. That at the same time is why we are so safe. I've had an accidental discharge before with a faulty rifle but I can honestly say, 100% hand on heart that I've never taken a shot at anything that I'm not 101% certain of what it is. And I never would - no matter what you're trying to shoot it will always be there another day if you can't get it safely at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) There are several riotous ***** here, a few realists and a few who fall somewhere in between. Its tragic, of course it is, its an accident , well he doesn't appear to have meant to do it. Who knows what anyone would do if it happened to them? Fortunately it hasn't happened to me, but I know FACT of cows being shot mistaken for rabbits, also sheep...heads down pitch black and eyes reflecting, and I have had to do double takes at horses and badgers etc at night myself. This is a media story, all the facts seldom come to light! Someone is dead though! Edited December 25, 2011 by Dekers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 ok lets put this to bed it was NOT an accident it was manslaughter, and for those who support the accident theory because he did not "intend to kill anyone" please tell me the difference from this case IE a woman that kills a kid "unintentionally" she got two years and quite rightly so, so why should mr maggoo be ok for his "accident" that put a man 6ft under, answers on a postcard please. cheers KW http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4014330/Learner-driver-kills-girl-on-first-lesson-Beatrice-Mawamba-jailed-for-two-years.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docholiday Posted December 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 Ahhh the high court judge and God Kud has spoken, all us lesser mortals lie down and prostrate ourselves before him, God forbid him that anyone else has a brain and uses it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 (edited) Ahhh the high court judge and God Kud has spoken, all us lesser mortals lie down and prostrate ourselves before him, God forbid him that anyone else has a brain and uses it. so that means you can't answer the question? yet again another insult is your answer? so do you know the difference from an accident and negligence? or is it simply anyone that has a different view to yours is to be discounted ?sorry but that's arrogance and believe me looking at your posts arrogance is a suitable definition. KW Edited December 26, 2011 by kdubya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taz24 Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 (edited) . A definition of an accident. The word accident is derived from the Latin verb accidere, signifying "fall upon, befall, happen or chance." In its most commonly accepted meaning, or in its ordinary or popular sense, the word may be defined as meaning: Some sudden and unexpected event taking place without expectation or an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury. Therfore sombody pointing a gun and pulling the trigger can't be defined as accidental. Tragic and sad, perhaps not a criminal act so punishment may not be the answer, but our understanding of what an accident is, is often used to explain negligence, stupidity, imaturity or some other human failing. taz . Edited December 26, 2011 by taz24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 I have no idea where that came from, perhaps you would care to explain ? The only arrogance on this post has been yours, by trying to tell us that you are correct, everybody else has given an opinion, The only arrogance on this post has been yours, by trying to tell us that you are correct, everybody else has given an opinion, yes but those that differ from you are as said discounted, my beef with this thread is this, we as fac holders ( and do bare in mind some have to jump through blazing hoops to get one) have a responsibility to act professionally when we are out with the gun, the cardinal rule of identifying the target 100% was not used in this case,and a conscious decision to shoot what "he thought" was a deer was taken and a man lost his life, that's not a cut finger or a stubbed toe its his LIFE. therefore it was not an accident, it was at best negligence,manslaughter at worst and any case of death through negligence in any normal arena would invoke punitive fines or imprisonment,and you would be the first to be bleating for it, but for some reason as he had a gun and must be a like minded individual it seems we should support his negligence? Well sorry I wont this death was unnecessary, unintentional or not and if we support such accidents by pooh poohing it as an accident perhaps those who call for us to lose our rights to own firearms might just have a point? we should be stood as one in condemning this type of incident, and be doing our damdness to prevent another, by feeling sorry for the pillock who pulled the trigger, we are doing our sport no favours whatsoever, anyway that's my stance and I will stand by that fastedly. KW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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