chrispti Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 What if your SGC is in for renewal (but has not expired)? I suppose at the very least make sure you have photo ID on you.. You do not legally need to hand in your certificate for a renewal. There is an article about it in this months BASC mag, if you can get a copy, have a read, its quite interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemini52 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I think it all depends on were you live as to how the police will react,i allways have my ticket in my bag,if you are stopped it can save you no end of inconvinience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northamptonclay Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 And how on earth would you get the required info on a photo card? 4 sheets of a4 now mine Have a paper counter part that can stay at home like driving licence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee-jon Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I keep mine in gun slip pocket in sandwich bag to keep dry. you never know when you mightget pulled over for anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 You do not legally need to hand in your certificate for a renewal. There is an article about it in this months BASC mag, if you can get a copy, have a read, its quite interesting Doesn't the same article by Bill Harriman state that unless you have your original ticket with you(regardless of whether or not you have a copy)the Police are entitled to seize your guns?I may be wrong,but have recently read this somewhere,but can't check if it's the BASC mag' as I've given it away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 You do not have to carry it? The stopping officer is well within his rights to seize your guns if you are unable to produce it. All the arguments and complaints in the world will not work as this action by the officer is lawful. I know you have your details on the PNC. Its simple to memorise a name DOB and address.... do you carry photo id? Your pnc record is not linked to a fingerprint so the new generation of fingerprint readers will not verify your details. The stopping officer can not see the photo on the NFLS. This stopcheck will not go to court as no offence has been comitted Unless you try to apply s48 (4) of the '68 act. But you may loose your guns until you take your cert to the police station where they are held, to prove lawful possession Practically, handing over your photo driving license which fits into your wallet is a simple way of proving your id. The Police also have the right to stop and search in the street and hold you without charge for extended periods of time under the prevention of terrorism act......but why would they!? point is no-one has their guns taken from them for the SOLE reason of not having a paper license on their person. There are god knows how many ways to verify ID and qualify someone's legal owndership. They get stopped for something else, or in a routine manner which subsequently turns up something else. no tax or MOT? guns in the car? no paper FAC? yes you are going to be torn a new one and be spending an awful long time talking to the police. out for the evening with no transgressions? why on earth would any PC want the hassle of seizing legally held weapons and the reams of paperwork that will go with it and the official complaints from the owner, the BASC and god knows who else just to prove a point? this is no different to you putting the FAC through the wash, or having it stolen. if you no longer have a legible copy you are NOT in breach of legal ownership! its a paper copy of a digital or hard version held on record at the Police HQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Nope, unless I need one to buy something both my certs. stay safely locked away in the ammo safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The big boy Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I carry a photocopy with me at all times, this is what i did: Scan and copy your certificate On the copy, black out house number, street, village and post code Re-copy the copy (so the writing underneath the blacked ot bits can't be read) Destroy the first copy and keep the 'blacked out' copy with you This way it still has all the relevant info for police like name, certificate number, valid from, d.o.b etc. You can still buy cart's with it If you lose it and someone finds it they will not know the address at which firearms are kept. ILEGAL to photocopy a sg cert? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Elvis Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I take a laminated photocopY AS ADVISED BY MY FEO!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypig Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) The Police also have the right to stop and search in the street and hold you without charge for extended periods of time under the prevention of terrorism act......but why would they!? point is no-one has their guns taken from them for the SOLE reason of not having a paper license on their person. There are god knows how many ways to verify ID and qualify someone's legal owndership. They get stopped for something else, or in a routine manner which subsequently turns up something else. no tax or MOT? guns in the car? no paper FAC? yes you are going to be torn a new one and be spending an awful long time talking to the police. out for the evening with no transgressions? why on earth would any PC want the hassle of seizing legally held weapons and the reams of paperwork that will go with it and the official complaints from the owner, the BASC and god knows who else just to prove a point? this is no different to you putting the FAC through the wash, or having it stolen. if you no longer have a legible copy you are NOT in breach of legal ownership! its a paper copy of a digital or hard version held on record at the Police HQ I think you are way off the point..... 1- stop search..... yes it is... asking you for your certificate and examining your firearms is a form of stop search 2- terrorism .... really? 3-People do get their guns seized when they are not in possession of their cert. It is lawful on behalf of the police officer. Remember you can borrow a shotgun for 72hrs off certificate for example. No certificate in this simple circumstance then wave good bye to the shotgun until lawful possession can be ascertained. we could all come up with many other scenario's 4- Seizing a firearm is like seizing any other property....a reciept for you and into the store with a label and an entry into the register.... 5 mins work ... no hassel. The point is you are not in breach of legal ownership without a copy but the law allows for the firearm to be seized if you can not produce a certificate on demand. It is still yours you will get it back at a later date. If it is so easy to prove who you are how would you do it? I would go with Carpentermarks's idea with a redacted copy if you insist on not taking the original..... it might help, it might not Edited July 1, 2012 by happypig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Have a paper counter part that can stay at home like driving licence In that case you might as well just carry your driving license as that has no details of guns and numbers on, but does prove who you are with photo. With all the information on PNC its an unreasonable policeman who once you've proved your ID takes your guns. Most of the cases you hear about there is a lot more to them than just being stopped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) The car reg thing is a bit of a no-starter as mrs gixer is the registered owner/keeper of the car I use for shooting... A simple name check would give them all the details they need. Regards, Gixer But you will be a named driver on the insurance and that is also on the PNC these days. so as long as you dont look like a woman they should be able to work it out. Pnc is good with dates of birth and searches 5 years either side of whatever date of birth they enter so with a name and a rough age they should be able to find us all on there.....all shooters are on the pnc now (along with all the criminals) The only time i was stopped was when an old man saw me going into some woodland with a gun, it should have been obvious i had permission as it was a combination coded gate and i opened it and locked it after me,anyway he felt the need to phone the police....it was just after the taxi driver in cumbria thing and so the local old bill felt the need to send a unit to check on me.... when the young coppers finally got upto me i was driving away from the wood.....they said we are really sorry to stop you, we dont know why we have been sent, we know you have a license (as above they had found me on the pnc.....and the address being the same as that my car is registered to and me being a named driver etc....) , i had my license as it was in the glove box of my car, it usually is as thats where i need it so i can go buy cartridges. they looked at that also......they were thorough in checking everything.....then i told them to look on the occupation page of the PNC (the pnc has many pages, the first is name dob address etc.....and the reference numbers, then there are obvious convictions arrests impending prosecutions etc......including pages of previous addresses, occupations, aliases , tattoos marks and scar's etc.....) I am a copper.....when they looked on that page they both laughed apologised again and we had a nice little chat about shooting and policing and i went on my way......they didn't want to stop me and were embarassed by being despatched as they already knew i was legal......but thats what happens post something like cumbria edited to add perhaps we should start a petition to get a change of the licences....especially a sgc , you could have a little card like the plastic card for your driving licence, which we could all carry for buying cartridges and proving we have a licence and the paper counter part could stay in the gun cabinet and only need to be taken when we are buying and selling guns as thats where they would be entered......beyond that we wouldn't need the paper part as you rarely buy and sell a gun and it would just be proof of legality that you have a sgc, who you are and would allow the purchase and sale of cartridges and the use of a shotgun. Someone with a bit of time spare should start an online petition....it would also be handy ID for some people...... Edited July 2, 2012 by compo90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 3-People do get their guns seized when they are not in possession of their cert. It is lawful on behalf of the police officer. Remember you can borrow a shotgun for 72hrs off certificate for example. No certificate in this simple circumstance then wave good bye to the shotgun until lawful possession can be ascertained. we could all come up with many other scenario's If it is so easy to prove who you are how would you do it? You could come up with all manner of scenarios none of which are without the additional circumstances. Show me someone who has had their firearms seized for NO OTHER reason than failure to provide an FAC on the spot? Any additional reason for the stop and search IS an additional reason. If the Police have stopped you because they think a crime is being committed and you can't prove who you or they have concerns as to your identity then you are screwed. As for proving identity, my driving license is always in my wallet, but I dont even carry my wallet when actually out shooting. So if I am 1 mile from the car and I get stopped then we are going back to the car anyway!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 The car reg thing is a bit of a no-starter as mrs gixer is the registered owner/keeper of the car I use for shooting... A simple name check would give them all the details they need. Regards, Gixer my last truck I had in the company name, they had me sussed from it so it can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 This thread has had 1260 views and nobody has put their hand up and said this has ever happened to them, as in, had guns confiscated purely for not having a cert on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 This thread has had 1260 views and nobody has put their hand up and said this has ever happened to them, as in, had guns confiscated purely for not having a cert on them. I agree - that says it all - I sometimes think we (as the community of shooters) complicate things for ourselves and are paranoid.... Regards, Gixer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 my last truck I had in the company name, they had me sussed from it so it can be done. as i said named driver on the insurance policy....the PNC links in with the Motor insurers bureau (i know a lad who works for the MIB also) via the Motor insurers data base (midas) Imagine you were stopping a car and you knew the driver had been shooting or seen with a gun, you would check the vehicle and the registered keeper, and if the registered keeper wasn't a SGC or FAC holder then you may want to go through the named drivers being very aware that it could be anyone driving the car........you would then go through the named drivers on the insurance database and find the person who has the certificate......then they pull you over and have a chat or not but they would be 99% sure you are legit.......if they couldn't find that person then they would be a little more suspicous and wary that it may not be a legit shooter and would make their decisions based on that..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I agree - that says it all - I sometimes think we (as the community of shooters) complicate things for ourselves and are paranoid.... Regards, Gixer i agree with that.....in fact most shooting laws are self imposed, there is very little enforcement of the rules and laws........we are just a very law abiding minority and we do so as we all fear losing our right to have a gun......As i said i have a mate who works for a firearms enquiry team.......you would be surprised the number of things that shooters do that the FET learn about and either take no action or its a warning letter telling the shooter not to do it again e.g. a SGC holder who acted as a referee for his friend, they could find no trace of the SGC holder.......yes thats right his SGC expired 10 years ago and he didn't realise he needed to renew it.......and he had kept his 2 shotguns for that 10 years........my friend thought he should have been prosecuted .....i said no surely thats the fault of the you lot at the FET for not asking when his sgc was due for renewal and not renewed what he did with his guns......(apparently they didn't have a computerised reminder for renewals then-and presumed if someones cert expired and not renewed that they had got rid) ....the supervisor in the FET thought similar to me, result was a warning letter and a new sgc issued...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gozzy Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I carry mine in my gun kit bag , i alwsys have that with me when carryung guns exceot when i take it out to buy csrtridges . I suppose the stopping officee will make there owm mind up if any further action/questions to be asked uf you dont have it with you depending on tge old " attitude test". Myst be some police on here that would loke to comment but understsnd some wouldnt like to show there hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoggy Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Nope, I`ve never taken mine out shooting in 30 years. I`ve been stopped twice. Once out walking up a field of beet and the other time walking back to vehicle after a duck flight. A quick check on the police radio to confirm who I was and I was on my way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 My cert is in for renewal at the moment. I just recieved in the post, a letter from the police acknowledging the receipt of my renewal application and fee. Further down the letter it says, if my renewal form has been recieved prior to the expiry date (which it has been) then I will not need to lodge my guns at an RFD or take any other action, should my renewed cert not be recieved before its expiry date. No action will be taken by the police where an application has been recieved prior to the expiry date and the cert has not been renewed as a result of backlogs in the renewal process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 It's entirely up to you of course,but you could ask them to issue you with a permit to posess,or for your old ticket back,if there is a chance you are left with no certificate following the expiry of your current one.The Police have no authority to tell you that it is ok to keep your guns at home without a valid certificate in the event of your new cert' not being issued prior to the expiry of your current one. A permit will not allow you to purchase ammo,so it would be better to ask for your existing ticket back.Like I said,up to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compo90 Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 The Police have no authority to tell you that it is ok to keep your guns at home without a valid certificate in the event of your new cert' not being issued prior to the expiry of your current one. sorry that doesn't make sense? they are the licensing authority. They issue the certificates, the actual issue and piece of paper is a record of what they have on the system, thats the important part the system. e.g. i had 4 guns when i moved house in march, i followed the FEO's instructions and sent my cert back for my new address putting on, they sent me a new SGC but it only had 3 of the 4 guns listed as the last to be bought (january) wasn't on my file on their system ....due to their backlog, not my fault i sent in the transfer form etc...anyway when i rang them up, they asked for the serial number and transfered the gun there and then to my file.....when i asked should i send my sgc back, I really dont want to as i had a few shooting things to do and carts to buy , they said it doesn't matter.....as long as their system was correct they weren't bothered what a piece of paper i had said, so in my opinion the firearms licensing team , the people who will take action against you if you fail to follow their rules and laws, if they send you a letter stating you can keep you guns until they sort their files out and send you a new SGC that letter is instead of your sgc until the new one arrives, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy9308 Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 I allways carry a Photo copy of my Shotgun/FAC, insurance & authority to shoot on the land i'm on. i find that if when i'm asked for proof i have all documentation. the person will realise that i'm not just some cowboy and that i'm a professional and mean bisness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyshooter Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) Just to add my two penny worth, there is a good write up on this subject in the B.A.S.C. magazine this month on page 36-37, by there legal eagle. I all ways carry the original cert and licence with me to dot all the i's and cross all the t's, quote; the right to seize and detain your guns remains, unless you produce the original, un-quote. I'm not a back room lawyer, just thought it might clarify, Fly. Edited July 4, 2012 by flyshooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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