four-wheel-drive Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 Much as it was bad for the people working in coal mines and factorise that they shut down but what was she supposed to do borrow loads more money and keep these places going if so who was going to pay all of this money back all of the other working people :no: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexl Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 Much as it was bad for the people working in coal mines and factorise that they shut down but what was she supposed to do borrow loads more money and keep these places going if so who was going to pay all of this money back all of the other working people :no: I work in the motor manufacturing sector, which is a fairly unsteady industry to be employed in at the moment, and that is worrying enough. So I can imagine having your entire local industry destroyed being utterly devastating. But as you say what was she to do, I think what people overlook is the fact that while certainly some communities were badly hurt, society as a whole deemed it necessary for her to do so, by electing her in the first place, she did after all get elected with a landslide victory on her first term. Then society (the majority of voters required to become elected) felt her medicine was the right thing and elected her a further two times. This is after all democracy and the point in politicians that they represent what the majority of people want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86inch Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 Its been said on here and asked many times, but i have never, ever heard anyone state a coherent alternative plan to Mrs T's policies... sure it was difficult medicine to take (as now)... but what was the alternative??? .... anyone??? I'd be surprised if anyone does come up with an alternative. I even heard David Blunkett on the radio yesterday stating that once Mrs T was elected, the "architects of New Labour" realised then that "Old Labour" was dead and would never again come to power.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 I'd be surprised if anyone does come up with an alternative. that will be the job of Kudubya's allotment growing them magic beans, they were and still are the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 that will be the job of Kudubya's allotment growing them magic beans, they were and still are the answer no sweat mate I will put some magic mushrooms in for you as well you obviously use a fair few. KW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) Much as it was bad for the people working in coal mines and factorise that they shut down but what was she supposed to do borrow loads more money and keep these places going if so who was going to pay all of this money back all of the other working people :no: what she could have done was use her windfall north sea oil revenue to support industry rather than use it to cover the cost of throwing 2 million onto the dole and lord knows how many more on to benefit, after all we now have the worst effect of her policies IE no Industry millions on the dole and no family silver left to sell to bale us out.so yeah she did a great job, that is of beggering the country I for one wont forget, neither will my area and I object to the please respect her brigade what respect did she show the Durham mining communities, I will tell you NON KW Edited April 10, 2013 by kdubya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 so basically give in to the unions and keep increasing peoples wages in industry that was uncompetitive on a world market and produce what exactly? for what market as who was going to buy it when you could import it cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead-Eyed Duck Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 that will be the job of Kudubya's allotment growing them magic beans, they were and still are the answer That's hit the nail on the head exactly. Hindsight is a wonderful study, but what was the alternative - the unions came damn near to destroying this country, along with the 'If it gets me votes I will let them have anything' attitude. Our friend Ed Milliband and Ed ('the past was nothing to do with me') Balls are prime examples. Please dear God let us have politicians who are prepared to clearly state the mess that the economy is in, and then perhaps they will get a little more trust. The miners were stitched up poor ******, but if I had been a miner with little alternative to a well paid job then I too would not have been happy. However, very few jobs last a lifetime, and burying your head in the sand like Luddites was bound to end in tears - and before I get a response may I point out that in my 50 year career I have had 7 jobs working for as many companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) so basically give in to the unions and keep increasing peoples wages in industry that was uncompetitive on a world market and produce what exactly? for what market as who was going to buy it when you could import it cheaper. the truth was you could not import cheaper you were buying a SUBSIDISED product subsidised by govts that could see what would happen if they lost their industry. Scargill was a fool,that doesn't mean Thatcher didn't have an agenda to bring close the mines before any strike was called..Scargill being who he was, incited the NUM members to call for a strike which he was only too happy to sanction. Thatcher knew he'd do this, aided and abetted by Ian Mc Gregor, a tycoon shipped in who knew jack about what impact mine closures would have on people's lives and cared even less. His wife famously asked 'I don't understand why the miners are so belligerent''! She obviously hadn't been in a position whereby the village or community that was home for many thousands of families was only there because of the mine. It doesn't take a great deal of working out what happens when the mine is shut down..bear in mind, just as with the redundancies from British Steel, it wasn't just the jobs in those industries that went. The supporting trades and services went too. Shops, workshops, dealer ships, pubs, cafes..all went. Mc Gregor described the miners as the enemy within..And he was their boss.. The head of the company to which his employees had given up to forty years of their working lives as 'the enemy within'.. KW Edited April 10, 2013 by kdubya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old rooster Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 what she could have done was use her windfall north sea oil revenue to support industry rather than use it to cover the cost of throwing 2 million onto the dole and lord knows how many more on to benefit, after all we now have the worst effect of her policies IE no Industry millions on the dole and no family silver left to sell to bale us out.so yeah she did a great job, that is of beggering the country I for one wont forget, neither will my area and I object to the please respect her brigade what respect did she show the Durham mining communities, I will tell you NON KW There was no point in throwing money into industry when there was so much communist sponsored union activity aimed at closing those same industries down. Surely you saw all that? If you were alive then but too young to understand it at the time with age it should have become easy enough to see. What she had to do was very disappointing but it had all reached the point where there wasn't much of a practical alternative, thank goodness somebody stepped up to put a stop to it. Not sure what the outcome of the cold war might have been otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapalomablanca Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 what she could have done was use her windfall north sea oil revenue to support industry rather than use it to cover the cost of throwing 2 million onto the dole and lord knows how many more on to benefit, after all we now have the worst effect of her policies IE no Industry millions on the dole and no family silver left to sell to bale us out.so yeah she did a great job, that is of beggering the country I for one wont forget, neither will my area and I object to the please respect her brigade what respect did she show the Durham mining communities, I will tell you NON KW Your charges against thatcher and her so called wrecking of industry is factually untrue. The decline of industries such as coal and cars,were in place long before margaret came on the scene. Unions had been telling miners they could keep pushing for more money, for less work, for years. Strikes would happen for the hell of it, many think the agenda was the deliberate overthrow of capitalism. When thatcher surveyed this self inflicted decline, she decided to turn off the life support machine. Even after the miners had killed the goose, so to speak, they were still given hefty pay offs. If you are faced with a situation like this and poland offer you a ton of coal for a third of the price, delivered, what would you do? I would say her decision to opt for a reliable fuel source saved the economy. I read somewhere that there is still 300 years worth of coal under the ground, i dont doubt that one day it will be mined again, but lets hope it's done in a sensible economic way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 Your charges against thatcher and her so called wrecking of industry is factually untrue. The decline of industries such as coal and cars,were in place long before margaret came on the scene. Unions had been telling miners they could keep pushing for more money, for less work, for years. Strikes would happen for the hell of it, many think the agenda was the deliberate overthrow of capitalism. When thatcher surveyed this self inflicted decline, she decided to turn off the life support machine. Even after the miners had killed the goose, so to speak, they were still given hefty pay offs. If you are faced with a situation like this and poland offer you a ton of coal for a third of the price, delivered, what would you do? I would say her decision to opt for a reliable fuel source saved the economy. I read somewhere that there is still 300 years worth of coal under the ground, i dont doubt that one day it will be mined again, but lets hope it's done in a sensible economic way. you think what you want to think I know what happened she laid waste to my area and oh please please do walk down seaside lane in easington and tell them they did well with their hefty pay offs, (I will bring you some grapes) KW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapalomablanca Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 you think what you want to think I know what happened she laid waste to my area and oh please please do walk down seaside lane in easington and tell them they did well with their hefty pay offs, (I will bring you some grapes) KW But you constantly miss the point and go off at a silly tangent, SHE dident wreck the mines, Wilson, Heath, and Callaghan and their weak governance allowed the unions to wreck industry. Then the miners felt that they were too important to lose their jobs and dident realise there is always someone around the corner who will do it cheaper. Remember beer and sarnies at no.10. The tuc was more or less running the show, thats the reason thatcher got in power, because she promised the people she would end the power cuts and the 3 day week, etc etc etc. Come on, if you were her and you looked at the situation in 1979, do you really think she would close down a 'winner' of course not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexl Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 But you constantly miss the point and go off at a silly tangent, SHE dident wreck the mines, Wilson, Heath, and Callaghan and their weak governance allowed the unions to wreck industry. Then the miners felt that they were too important to lose their jobs and dident realise there is always someone around the corner who will do it cheaper. Remember beer and sarnies at no.10. The tuc was more or less running the show, thats the reason thatcher got in power, because she promised the people she would end the power cuts and the 3 day week, etc etc etc. Come on, if you were her and you looked at the situation in 1979, do you really think she would close down a 'winner' of course not! This is what I cant get my head around, if the mines were competitive what did she possibly have to gain by closing them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) you think what you want to think I know what happened she laid waste to my area and oh please please do walk down seaside lane in easington and tell them they did well with their hefty pay offs, (I will bring you some grapes) KW I too live in a mining (ex) area, There is still a blinkered approach to Thatcher, nobody round here will even concede that Thatcher Did anything but shut the mines, She was in power for 3 terms and all she did was shut the mines? Most miners, and I say most were constantly nicking stuff from the pits, boots/coats/tools/building equipment/engineering supplies, The waste was unbelievable........no business can sustain that kind of abuse, They killed the goose that layed the golden egg, unions kept telling them to ask for more and more, and labour constantly gave it to them..... Unions at the outset were outstanding, improved pay/working conditions/safety. THEN the militants and communists took over and the rest is history. Look at the tube drivers in London, VERY well payed which included bank holidays xmas etc, then the unions decided that they wanted more money for working bankholidays and xmas, they had already agreed to the pay. Look at the wages the union leaders are on, then look at their benefits that come with it, subsidised housing/travel. The unions need to take a good look at themselves then decide who is to blame for closures etc But they wont, its all Thatchers/tories fault..... I really do despair at times.... Oh and Scargill is still busy sueing the NUM because he wants his house rent free for life!! kdubya, you obviously care passionately about your case, but its wrong, you can make statistics show anything you want but at least get them right first Edited April 10, 2013 by shaun4860 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codling99 Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 well only read about 6 pages of this tripe,and didnt see any comments from any welsh memebrs? free speech and all that,i dont think there ll be a dry house in wales the day shes buried, she caused alot of greif for welsh familys that have never recovered to this day. and on a lighter note,"ding dong the witch is dead" will be at number 1 in the charts,millons of uk citizens cant be wrong !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildrover77 Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 well only read about 6 pages of this tripe,and didnt see any comments from any welsh memebrs? free speech and all that,i dont think there ll be a dry house in wales the day shes buried, she caused alot of greif for welsh familys that have never recovered to this day. and on a lighter note,"ding dong the witch is dead" will be at number 1 in the charts,millons of uk citizens cant be wrong !! I am afraid they are wrong, Has anyone seen the Guardian Website survey results 50% say she was positive for the UK and only 36% negative. The guardian of all places!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old rooster Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 you think what you want to think I know what happened she laid waste to my area and oh please please do walk down seaside lane in easington and tell them they did well with their hefty pay offs, (I will bring you some grapes) KW The greed of the workers who thought the unions gave a flying **** about what happened to them caused that!! They don't like to face up to that truth but that is what they allowed to happen rather than understanding the commercial reality of the situation the country was being pushed into. If the rank and file had stood up to the likes of Scargill they could never have wreaked the havoc that they did, backed by their communist sponsors in the USSR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 The greed of the workers who thought the unions gave a flying **** about what happened to them caused that!! They don't like to face up to that truth but that is what they allowed to happen rather than understanding the commercial reality of the situation the country was being pushed into. If the rank and file had stood up to the likes of Scargill they could never have wreaked the havoc that they did, backed by their communist sponsors in the USSR. +1 Did you know that Thatcher was to blame for communism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLH1966 Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 There's been a lot of stuff spouted over the last few days about Mrs Thatcher - mostly by people who either weren't born or at best were angry toddlers during her time in charge and quite frankly I'm sick of it.She was democratically elected THREE TIMES, picked this country out of the gutter the trade unions & weak labour governments had dragged us in to - power cuts due to pit strikes, waste building up on the streets, more strikes, fuel shortages, strikes again, etc, etc, etc, it was a ****ty job and she had the balls to do it and for a short while we were able to hold our heads up on the world stage.Yes she got things wrong, Poll tax, de regulation of the banks etc but at least when she took us to war she didn't lie her *** off like Bliar.So please show some bloody respect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flynny Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) I too live in a mining (ex) area, There is still a blinkered approach to Thatcher, nobody round here will even concede that Thatcher Did anything but shut the mines, She was in power for 3 terms and all she did was shut the mines? Most miners, and I say most were constantly nicking stuff from the pits, boots/coats/tools/building equipment/engineering supplies, The waste was unbelievable........no business can sustain that kind of abuse, They killed the goose that layed the golden egg, unions kept telling them to ask for more and more, and labour constantly gave it to them..... Unions at the outset were outstanding, improved pay/working conditions/safety. THEN the militants and communists took over and the rest is history. Look at the tube drivers in London, VERY well payed which included bank holidays xmas etc, then the unions decided that they wanted more money for working bankholidays and xmas, they had already agreed to the pay. Look at the wages the union leaders are on, then look at their benefits that come with it, subsidised housing/travel. The unions need to take a good look at themselves then decide who is to blame for closures etc But they wont, its all Thatchers/tories fault..... I really do despair at times.... Oh and Scargill is still busy sueing the NUM because he wants his house rent free for life!! kdubya, you obviously care passionately about your case, but its wrong, you can make statistics show anything you want but at least get them right first Bang on mate, I don't know much bout politics, but I have seen the union stewards at work, militants is the very word for the majority of them , and the members follow there every word like sheep the blind fools. Most blokes I know in the union are all lazy skiving work shy toe rags who are on good money and work in great conditions, union = an excuse to moan and do nowt. If you don't like your job find another one simples, gone are the days of the carp working conditions any way so get rid of the unions, that's my opinion so tuff if you don't agree. Atb ( the 6th paragraph down says it all in a nut shell about the " unions") Flynny Flynny Edited April 10, 2013 by flynny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 you think what you want to think I know what happened she laid waste to my area and oh please please do walk down seaside lane in easington and tell them they did well with their hefty pay offs, (I will bring you some grapes) KW The real problem was you had communities of people all with just one way of making a living much like we see in the old western films in the gold rush a town springs up around a coal silver gold etc etc mine then when for whatever reason it is no longer viable to dig the stuff out the people move on to find new jobs but in this country we expect the government to wave a magic wand and a new factory suddenly apears with work for all of the miners. This hole thing could have been handled better the problem was you had to pig headed people Thacher and Scargill if the miners had diched him then things could have been handled in a much more managed way most of the mines had to close but it should have been done over a much longer time scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) There's been a lot of stuff spouted over the last few days about Mrs Thatcher - mostly by people who either weren't born or at best were angry toddlers during her time in charge and quite frankly I'm sick of it. She was democratically elected THREE TIMES, picked this country out of the gutter the trade unions & weak labour governments had dragged us in to - power cuts due to pit strikes, waste building up on the streets, more strikes, fuel shortages, strikes again, etc, etc, etc, it was a ****ty job and she had the balls to do it and for a short while we were able to hold our heads up on the world stage. Yes she got things wrong, Poll tax, de regulation of the banks etc but at least when she took us to war she didn't lie her *** off like Bliar. So please show some bloody respect and some of it is written by those old enough like ME to have actually endured her vitriol 1st hand so show some bloody respect for them eh! I take no joy from the death a woman suffering from dementia who died apparently alone in a hotel room whilst her loving family where busy being "important" but whilst she was in power I admit I hated her with a vengeance and I find it hard to swallow the guff of how good she was ,when the truth was she wasn't, she cared not a jot about the working man, she along with her husband (remember him) sold out the shipyards on the Tees to Trafalgar house I wonder who had big big stakes in them? no she was a manipulative business woman and good at it but she was never a leader. KW Edited April 10, 2013 by kdubya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 Perhaps this thread points to what Thatcher really did to Britain - divided it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUNCEMOUNT Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) well only read about 6 pages of this tripe,and didnt see any comments from any welsh memebrs? free speech and all that,i dont think there ll be a dry house in wales the day shes buried, she caused alot of greif for welsh familys that have never recovered to this day. and on a lighter note,"ding dong the witch is dead" will be at number 1 in the charts,millons of uk citizens cant be wrong !! They will never allow that to get to number 1 in the charts... What I can remember, I certainly will be downloading it.... Welsh and proud! **** off ye old bint! WITCH Edited April 10, 2013 by RUNCEMOUNT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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