Illegal crow caller?

[Medic1281]

After a chat with a basc instructor several months ago, I was under the impression that using an electronic caller was not illegal, as he himself had been decoying crows with one. I stated that I thought it was illegal to use one, his answer was that it was illegal to use an electronic recording, he was using a electronic caller that sounded like crows but wasn't an actual recording of crows. So by the letter of the law was legal.

[bicykillgaz]

After a chat with a basc instructor several months ago, I was under the impression that using an electronic caller was not illegal, as he himself had been decoying crows with one. I stated that I thought it was illegal to use one, his answer was that it was illegal to use an electronic recording, he was using a electronic caller that sounded like crows but wasn't an actual recording of crows. So by the letter of the law was legal.

 

That would make more sense as its no different in theory to using a mouth/manually operated call.

[HW682]

definition from WACA 1981

27 Interpretation of Part I. E+W
(1)In this Part, unless the context otherwise requires—

• 
  “advertisement” includes a catalogue, a circular and a price list;
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  “automatic weapon” and “semi-automatic weapon” do not include any weapon the magazine of which is incapable of holding more than two rounds;

 

so no FAC shotguns for game or wildfowl, but they can be used under the GLs.


I had some correspondance a while ago with Natural England about the rationale behind the ban on sound recordings. For example: you have proven you have a problem with say crows killing lambs, you are satisfied that non lethal methods will not work so you are now authorised to kill the crows, why the requirement to do it with "one hand tied behind your back?"
NE opinion is that the use of a sound recording is likley to lead to a large increase in the number of corvids killed. In theory the restriction could be considered for removal but it would be accompanied by a new requirement to report all corvids killed.
I doubt there would be much support for this proposal?

Also note that the law does not specifically say it is a recording of eg a crow. NE opinion was that a digital simulation is also illegal. I don't fancy being the test case Edited May 6, 2013 by HW682

[Bazooka Joe]

If convicted, you would no longer be allowed to use general licences. Ever. For life.

 

 

I'm intrigued, please explain.

[robbiep]

I'm intrigued, please explain.

There is a prohibition (in most cases) on using the general licence if you have been convicted of 'wildlife crimes' after January 2010.

As far as I am aware, the prohibition lasts forever - though I may well be mistaken.

 

Basically, the antis know that this prohibition exists, and if they catch you and manage to get evidence, they will almost certainly take out a private prosecution if the CPS decided not to go through with one themselves. If they succeed, you are no longer allowed to use the GLs.

Also, any conviction is going to be notified to your FEO team. They will almost certainly look again as to whether you are a 'fit and proper person' to be holding a SGC/FAC

[Muddy Funker]

it's not a case of why

it just is, its the law, we don't have to agree with it, but we must abide by it

 

It is a case of why.

 

Or do you not question anything? Yes it's the law and yes it must be followed, but there's no harm in questioning the reasoning behind it, it's called learning.

[Bazooka Joe]

There is a prohibition (in most cases) on using the general licence if you have been convicted of 'wildlife crimes' after January 2010.

 

 

Pass a link through then...

[robbiep]

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/regulation/wildlife/licences/generallicences.aspx

 

Under the section "What are general licences and how do you use them"

 

If you plan to act under the authority of a General Licence, you must:

• be satisfied that you are eligible to do so (eligibility is licence-specific and in most cases there is a condition preventing use of the licences by persons who are convicted of wildlife crimes after 01 January 2010)

If you want full chapter and verse, then I'd suggest you go read the licence in full.

If you have no idea as to the laws under which you shoot, then I'd suggest you don't shoot until you do know those laws as they apply to you. Ignorance of the law is not a defence in a court

[CharlieT]

I am aware that it is "superceded" by the General Licence, but wondered how many other people knew.

Not just shooters, but the others that wave the WACA about .

It has always beggared the question as to why it was ever included in the WACA in the first place.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact all birds are protected unless another piece of legislation overrides it.

Game birds, although protected, are permitted by legislation to be shot in season and because the WCA came into force after multi shot shotguns were banned the act was drafted banning such guns for shooting all birds.

 

Even what we call pest species of birds are protected. However, the GL permits them to be shot, under certain circumstances, and to use multi shot shotguns to do so.

[farmshooter]

So can i or can i not use a 8 shot semi auto to shoot crows and pigeons?

[Paul T]

So can i or can i not use a 8 shot semi auto to shoot crows and pigeons?

Assuming it's a bog standard FAC shotgun and not a Section 5 weapon:

 

Yes, if you are shooting pigeons & crows under the terms of the General Licence

 

No, if you are shooting them under the WCA

[CharlieT]

Assuming it's a bog standard FAC shotgun and not a Section 5 weapon:

 

Yes, if you are shooting pigeons & crows under the terms of the General Licence

 

No, if you are shooting them under the WCA

I was under the impression that they could only be shot by use of the General License.

[steve_b_wales]

So can i or can i not use a 8 shot semi auto to shoot crows and pigeons?

 

I use an 8 shot FAC shotgun to shoot Crows etc. When I applied for this FAC shotgun, the reason I stated for owning it was 'crop protection'. I was advised to write this as the reason to own one, by my FEO, and it was accepted by the police.

[Paul T]

I was under the impression that they could only be shot by use of the General License.

 

No, Schedule 2 Part 2 Bird species can be killed or taken at any time by an Authorised Person under the WCA. Please read the Act for all the various scenarios, but the key one is:

 

"(3)Notwithstanding anything in the provisions of section 1 or any order made under section 3, an authorised person shall not be guilty of an offence by reason of the killing or injuring of any wild bird, other than a bird included in Schedule 1, if he shows that his action was necessary for the purpose of

(a)preserving public health or public or air safety ;

(b)preventing the spread of disease; or

©preventing serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, or fisheries."

[Dangerous Brian]

Paul T, on 06 May 2013 - 09:41, said:

No it doesn't, because you are specifically permitted to use a semi auto when shooting under the General Licence. I went through this with BASC a couple of weeks ago on the phone.

 

Be sure of what legislation you are shooting under - WACA or General Licence

 

Edited to add: The General Licence still doesn't permit the use of electronic callers

Just out of interest, where would that leave anyone who wanted to use a semi for game? i.e. Someone invited on a day at the local shoot but has only got a semi to use (assuming the shoot captain has given the OK to use it). I had a quick look through the G.L. but couldn't see anything that specifically permitted it.

[CharlieT]

No, Schedule 2 Part 2 Bird species can be killed or taken at any time by an Authorised Person under the WCA. Please read the Act for all the various scenarios, but the key one is:

 

"(3)Notwithstanding anything in the provisions of section 1 or any order made under section 3, an authorised person shall not be guilty of an offence by reason of the killing or injuring of any wild bird, other than a bird included in Schedule 1, if he shows that his action was necessary for the purpose of

(a)preserving public health or public or air safety ;

(b)preventing the spread of disease; or

©preventing serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, or fisheries."

But surely the term authorised person relates to the holder of one of the licenses issued by NE, such as the General License, and as such the WCA does not itself offer a further type of authority.

[CharlieT]

Just out of interest, where would that leave anyone who wanted to use a semi for game? i.e. Someone invited on a day at the local shoot but has only got a semi to use (assuming the shoot captain has given the OK to use it). I had a quick look through the G.L. but couldn't see anything that specifically permitted it.

You can not use one, their use is banned by the WCA. The only birds you can shoot with one are those that are authorised by the GL.

[Paul T]

But surely the term authorised person relates to the holder of one of the licenses issued by NE, such as the General License, and as such the WCA does not itself offer a further type of authority.

The term 'Authorised Person' is defined in the WCA as "the owner or occupier, or any person authorised by the owner or occupier, of the land on which the action authorised is taken;" It is exactly the same in the General Licence

 

You can not use one, their use is banned by the WCA. The only birds you can shoot with one are those that are authorised by the GL.

Be careful on the definition of a semi-auto. Interestingly, a "2 in the mag & 1 up the spout" semi-auto appears not to be a semi-auto as defined by WCA:

"semi “automatic weapon” and “semi-automatic weapon” do not include any weapon the magazine of which is incapable of holding more than two rounds; "

Therefore you can use a semi (2+1) for wildfowl under the terms of the WCA. I can't see anything that would prevent it's theoretical use on game. You cannot use a FAC semi-auto to control birds under the WCA, only under the terms of the General Licence. This is what prevents you from using a FAC shotgun for wildfowling as the General Licence only covers by definition "To Kill or Take Certain Wild Birds to Prevent Serious Damage or Disease". Worth noting, therefore, that it's actually Section 2 of the WCA that lists the exceptions for shooting other birds outside of the closed season i.e. Game & Wildfowl.

 

Apologies if I'm starting to sound like Jonathan L, but I was asked a question recently about the WCA, hence my own referal to BASC. It does mean I've had my fill of the General Licence and WCA over the last few weeks - perhaps I should respectfully suggest some others would be as well to have a refresher too??

[CharlieT]

The term 'Authorised Person' is defined in the WCA as "the owner or occupier, or any person authorised by the owner or occupier, of the land on which the action authorised is taken;" It is exactly the same in the General Licence

 

Be careful on the definition of a semi-auto. Interestingly, a "2 in the mag & 1 up the spout" semi-auto appears not to be a semi-auto as defined by WCA:

"semi “automatic weapon” and “semi-automatic weapon” do not include any weapon the magazine of which is incapable of holding more than two rounds; "

Therefore you can use a semi (2+1) for wildfowl under the terms of the WCA. I can't see anything that would prevent it's theoretical use on game. You cannot use a FAC semi-auto to control birds under the WCA, only under the terms of the General Licence. This is what prevents you from using a FAC shotgun for wildfowling as the General Licence only covers by definition "To Kill or Take Certain Wild Birds to Prevent Serious Damage or Disease". Worth noting, therefore, that it's actually Section 2 of the WCA that lists the exceptions for shooting other birds outside of the closed season i.e. Game & Wildfowl.

 

Apologies if I'm starting to sound like Jonathan L, but I was asked a question recently about the WCA, hence my own referal to BASC. It does mean I've had my fill of the General Licence and WCA over the last few weeks - perhaps I should respectfully suggest some others would be as well to have a refresher too??

Yes, I get the semi auto bit but I thought we were takling Section 1.

 

But back to the GL & WCA which is what interests me. Does that mean that I, as a farmer and landowner, can shoot winged vermin under the auspices of the WCA alone without the need to rely on or for that matter bother with the GL unless of course I use my S1 shotgun.

[HW682]

Yes, I get the semi auto bit but I thought we were takling Section 1.

 

But back to the GL & WCA which is what interests me. Does that mean that I, as a farmer and landowner, can shoot winged vermin under the auspices of the WCA alone without the need to rely on or for that matter bother with the GL unless of course I use my S1 shotgun.

 

I think that subscetions 4), 5) and 6) that follow subsection 3) are relevant. Sounds easier to just use the various GL's to me? (But it might be of use to someone)

 

(3)Notwithstanding anything in the provisions of section 1 or any order made under section 3, an authorised person shall not be guilty of an offence by reason of the killing or injuring of any wild bird, other than a bird included in Schedule 1, if he shows that his action was necessary for the purpose of—

(a)preserving public health or public or air safety;

 

( b )preventing the spread of disease; or

 

(c )preventing serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, [F22, fisheries or inland waters].

 

[F23(4)An authorised person shall not be regarded as showing that any action of his was necessary for a purpose mentioned in subsection (3)( c ) unless he shows that as regards that purpose, there was no other satisfactory solution.

 

(5)An authorised person shall not be entitled to rely on the defence provided by subsection (3)( c ) as respects any action taken at any time for any purpose mentioned in that paragraph if it had become apparent, before that time, that that action would prove necessary for that purpose and either—

 

(a)a licence under section 16 authorising that action had not been applied for by him as soon as reasonably practicable after that fact had become apparent; or

 

( b )an application by him for such a licence had been determined.

 

(6)An authorised person shall not be entitled to rely on the defence provided by subsection (3)( c ) as respects any action taken at any time unless he notified the agriculture Minister as soon as reasonably practicable after that time that he had taken the action.]

Edited May 8, 2013 by HW682

[Paul T]

Yes, I get the semi auto bit but I thought we were takling Section 1.

 

But back to the GL & WCA which is what interests me. Does that mean that I, as a farmer and landowner, can shoot winged vermin under the auspices of the WCA alone without the need to rely on or for that matter bother with the GL unless of course I use my S1 shotgun.

Yes, we were taking section 1, but since the question had been asked about using a semi on game, I thought it would be worth clarifying the definition.

 

Anyway, you are absolutely correct - you can shoot winged vermin under the terms of the WCA alone. As has been pointed out though, the General Licence is a bit clearer for most of us to understand.

 

Edited to add the exception allowing you to shoot 'winged vermin':

 

Subject to the provisions of this section, an authorised person shall not be guilty of an offence under section 1 by reason of -

(a) the killing or taking of a bird included in Part II of Schedule 2, or the injuring of such a bird in the course of an attempt to kill it;

(b) the taking, damaging or destruction of a nest of such a bird; or

©the taking or destruction of an egg of such a bird.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Paul T

[CharlieT]

Thanks Paul, I appreciate your time educating me. One learns something new every day.

[al4x]

does this have any impact on the GL's references to non lethal scaring first particularly with relation to pigeons and shooting them in areas where they aren't actually causing damage?

[Dangerous Brian]

Thanks Paul T and Charlie T for clearing up the semi question. I should have said whether I meant section 1 or 2 but at least I now know what the abstract definition of a semi auto is according to the WCA.

[woody801]

I nearly bought one of these from a game fair last year. The bloke reckoned that there legal because the call is synthetic rather than recorded. Dunno if that's right or not.