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JDog

I am getting a Sprocker. Am I mad?

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fair enough not looking for a sprocker related virtual dust up ;) i am happy with how my sprocker is turning out he is very very cocker like but muscley with it like a springer, we went to a meet up in Scotland for Sprocker owners and there was nearly 40 sprockers there and the difference in size and mannerisms is amazing as can the difference in cockers and springers i suppose really no matter what breed gun dog puppy kc reg or not we are all taking a gamble as to how it will turn out and i can understand the idea that with a kc reg dog you have more chance of being able to predict the resulting dog but i would say it some times dont go that way? but as long as our dogs are happy and healthy i am not gonna loose any kip over him not being kc reg'd :)

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fair enough not looking for a sprocker related virtual dust up ;) i am happy with how my sprocker is turning out he is very very cocker like but muscley with it like a springer, we went to a meet up in Scotland for Sprocker owners and there was nearly 40 sprockers there and the difference in size and mannerisms is amazing as can the difference in cockers and springers i suppose really no matter what breed gun dog puppy kc reg or not we are all taking a gamble as to how it will turn out and i can understand the idea that with a kc reg dog you have more chance of being able to predict the resulting dog but i would say it some times dont go that way? but as long as our dogs are happy and healthy i am not gonna loose any kip over him not being kc reg'd :)

Something we can all agree on :good:

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I have just had a litter of sprockers 10 weeks ago I have the bitch and dog my cocker the bitch is all work work work and so fast but takes longer to take training in ( cocker traight) and my springer is the most placid springer I have ever met very fast learner so I decided to breed hoping for a good combination of the two and so far so good

 

Now whatever you want to call them cross breeds / mongrel it's really down to preference and really whatever dog you have it comes down to the handler and how much time and effort they put in I am really chuffed with mine

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Totally agree just because it comes with a piece of paper telling you who its great granny is dont make it a better gun dog does it? theres an element of luck involved with picking any working dog i had a KC reg dog previously and he was that in bred the poor lil sod only lasted till he was 7 years old

So you knew the dog was badly inbred and you still bought it, ultimately that's your problem and because it was pedigree you could see it was inbred and any health tests the parents had had done. Mongrels you have nothing but promises

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I find it hard to understand how a 'sprocker' will fill the inbetween roles off either a springer or cocker. Modern springers are the size off cockers now anyway. And for ur average game shot won't make any difference

 

Personally i would not go out to buy a mongrel/cross bred dog althou i have no doubt they cam make excellent gundogs. But thats where ur problem is if u have a cracker u can't breed from it and expect decent dogs as u never know wot will happen. Whereas with a pure bred dog u can make a more educated guess off wot the pups should be like, if u do ur homework over sires/dams/lines.

There always is a deal of luck involved with breeding but breeding mongrels is a complete lotery as to wot u end up with.

 

Do u know the dogs? Owners? have u seen them work? I have seen plenty off dogs described/advertised as 'genuine working dogs' when that is not really the case, nearest they come to a shoot is a walk in the countryside

 

Think beerd up sums it up in his post 40 owners off sprockers and all dogs looked compleltely different and had different mannerisms, at least when u go for a 'pure bred dog u can expect some sort of general traits, althou off course all dogs are different and individual but within a line/breed the difference between extremes should be less. He is also right about spaniels all being 1 breed years ago, but go a bit further and all dogs where wolves? where do u draw the line

 

1st generation crosses do actually tend to be slightly healthy than some pure breds (still not a reason for buying 1) due to hibryid vigor, but 2nd generation crosses the oppisate tends to happen and dogs generally less healthy and have more health problems.

 

I would just get a pure breed dog off ur choice, like others have said very little difference in price between ur mongrel and a springer, when u even it out over 10+ years really worth paying to get a decent dog of decent working lines even if it costs u a bit extra, worth paying for the piece off mind that the dog will do wot u expect,. Then up to u to put the time in

 

I know plenty keepers who have mongrels in there kennels, i also know some that just go to the rescue centre up the road and are more than happy to take almost anything off them and have a full kennel off resue dogs, which surprisingly work well.

But all they want is cheap dogs, and price is the only driving factor behind it

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So you knew the dog was badly inbred and you still bought it, ultimately that's your problem and because it was pedigree you could see it was inbred and any health tests the parents had had done. Mongrels you have nothing but promises

erm no i didnt actually he wasnt a working dog he was bought off a family friend who's own dog had bred with a former crufts champion (he was an american cocker) so it wasn't some thing i was looking at and at the time i was unaware to the practice it certainly wasnt my fault and the inbreeding wasnt on my friends bitch it was on the highly bred show dog so my dog ended up with very bad eyes and ultimately died of organ failure

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Think beerd up sums it up in his post 40 owners off sprockers and all dogs looked compleltely different and had different mannerisms, at least when u go for a 'pure bred dog u can expect some sort of general traits, althou off course all dogs are different and individual but within a line/breed the difference between extremes should be less. He is also right about spaniels all being 1 breed years ago, but go a bit further and all dogs where wolves? where do u draw the line

 

 

yeah there was a lot of differences in the dogs thats due mainly to which way around the crossing took place some "sprockers" turn out as almost identical to a springer and other my own included are very cocker like in appearance (yes i know i could of gone out and bought one of either breed) i didnt really make a concerted decision to go and seek a sprocker and i was told about a friend of my wife's relative who's husband had bred (accidently) his mates springer and his cocker bitch (both working) and i had read that first gen sprockers made good healthy dogs i went to have a look and i liked what i saw. i know lots of people with springers and cockers and the size differences in these two breeds alone stuns me as the kennel club is supposed to up hold a breed standard?

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The KC only holds the registaration papers, really is juat a big filing service nothing more, has nothing to do with up holding the breed standards, It is really up to responsible breeders to up hold the breed standards.

 

But both show and FT breeders don't seem to care about breed standards and breed soley for wot appeals to the judges eyes now, and not wot is best for the field

 

That's the reason most folk are advising aggainst it u just never know wot ur going to end up with the good aspects of both breeds or the worst of both or something in the middle. Not really worth the gamble

Edited by scotslad

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erm no i didnt actually he wasnt a working dog he was bought off a family friend who's own dog had bred with a former crufts champion (he was an american cocker) so it wasn't some thing i was looking at and at the time i was unaware to the practice it certainly wasnt my fault and the inbreeding wasnt on my friends bitch it was on the highly bred show dog so my dog ended up with very bad eyes and ultimately died of organ failure

The facts are though you only had to look at the paperwork to see that, which is the plus of registered dogs. Line breeding has its fans and also its critics, but the fact the paperwork is there gives you something to go from.

Mongrels you just get what you are told and when the value is lower than a registered dog you have to question why the mating took place, and what care was taken in researching it beforehand.

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I see that some posters are using the word 'mongrel' in a very negative and disparaging way wheras it's true meaning is simply mixed breeding.

 

I could say that those posters are 'ignorant' and I would be using the word in it's true sense of 'not knowing the facts' rather than stupid or thick.

Edited by JDog

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I see that some posters are using the word 'mongrel' in a very negative and disparaging way wheras it's true meaning is simply mixed breeding.

 

I could say that those posters are 'ignorant' and I would be using the word in it's true sense of 'not knowing the facts' rather than stupid or thick.

 

indeed I feel that the reason for using the word was to be inflammatory :/

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I see that some posters are using the word 'mongrel' in a very negative and disparaging way wheras it's true meaning is simply mixed breeding.

 

I could say that those posters are 'ignorant' and I would be using the word in it's true sense of 'not knowing the facts' rather than stupid or thick.

yup some people are just using that as a way of attempting to get a rise! just because a cross breed does not have any papers does not make it a lesser dog and if trained correctly will make a good healthy loyal gun dog which is what we are all after at the end of the day! please lets not let this turn into a my cats blacker than your off black cat slanging match. some people feel more relaxed in knowing the family history of a pup than others i personally wasn't that worried as i knew that my pup came from both parents being working dogs and he had his tail docked as i wanted and he was a happy healthy chunky built spaniel pup (just what i was looking for) and he is turning into a capable dog for his age (10 months) and i am looking forward to many years of loyal service from him.

Edited by beeredup

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The axe I have to grind is this when selling cross bred gun dogs the fact the the dam and sire are kc reg is often quoted and even the fact that they have many ftc in the line is mentioned and one reply on this topic even says he can trace his cross bred dogs lines ! how ? is it through pedigree paperwork supplied by the kc but I get the general drift from those who own crossbreeds that they think reg a pup aint worth the paper its printed on. . I have pups for sale so I will not comment on the quality's of one or the other except to say both can behave badly in the field . PS MOSTLY DOWN TO THE TRAINER I MITE ADD

Edited by scutt

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if they are a first gen cross then the parents breeding is relevant? multi gen crosses are a different kettle of koi but i do agree that some people seem to charge ridiculous prices for sprockers which seems strange i have seen sprockers being offered for sale for more than a well bred cocker?

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No one is disputing the fact that a cross bred or mongrel can do the job every bit as well in the field, that is not the issue. Seen more good ones working than bad ones

I would have no problem taking a mongrel into my kennels at 6+ months old even untrained as long as unspoiled as atleast at 6 month onwards u will have a fairly good idea wot ur dealing with mentally and pyhsically. But a 8-10 weeks its hard enough picking pups of 'pure' bred dogs trying to guess how they will turn out without adding all the extra varibles into the mix of 2 diferent breeds. Like i said the differences in extremes will be far greater when ur mixing 2 breeds (ie potentially a massive diference between the fastest/slowest, hardest/softest, biggest smallest etc)

 

Now beeredup wot happpens 2-3 years down the line when ur dog is an absolute belter! Do u breed off it? Wot do u breed it too?

Thats the biggest problem if u put the effort in and end up with a really good dog its very hard to continue the line and end up with similar types of dog. Genetics can be quite a strange thing with things often showing up every 2nd gen. U just don't know wot u'll end up with

 

1 thing that mystifies me is why cross a springer and cocker anyway? They pretty much do the same job and if u choose ur lines can get either a bigger cocker or smaller springer so really no reason to cross them anyway.

 

Can sort of understand (althou don't agree with it) why u would cross a lab/springer, trying to get a harder hunting lab or better coat on a springer or lab/hpr paticulary the GWP to try and tame the beast so to speak but u often just end up **** far ranging hard mouthed lab which is no good at anything

Edited by scotslad

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. I have pups for sale so I will not comment

That's why you can comment, like you I've just sold a litter and breeding responsibly takes a lot of effort and thought which makes you really question why people take a pedigree dog and cross it with something else.

I spent ages looking for the right stud dog, drove miles for it. Had the dams hips scored and the other recommended tests and the litter has been great. Sold them all by 4 weeks old and the reports back have been rather good and the pup I have here is quite something. Yes I could have had a cross breed that is as good but there are no guarantees that's why you look to breed with the best you can and be able to show it

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No one is disputing the fact that a cross bred or mongrel can do the job every bit as well in the field, that is not the issue. Seen more good ones working than bad ones

I would have no problem taking a mongrel into my kennels at 6+ months old even untrained as long as unspoiled as atleast at 6 month onwards u will have a fairly good idea wot ur dealing with mentally and pyhsically. But a 8-10 weeks its hard enough picking pups of 'pure' bred dogs trying to guess how they will turn out without adding all the extra varibles into the mix of 2 diferent breeds. Like i said the differences in extremes will be far greater when ur mixing 2 breeds (ie potentially a massive diference between the fastest/slowest, hardest/softest, biggest smallest etc)

 

Now beeredup wot happpens 2-3 years down the line when ur dog is an absolute belter! Do u breed off it? Wot do u breed it too?

Thats the biggest problem if u put the effort in and end up with a really good dog its very hard to continue the line and end up with similar types of dog. Genetics can be quite a strange thing with things often showing up every 2nd gen. U just don't know wot u'll end up with

 

1 thing that mystifies me is why cross a springer and cocker anyway? They pretty much do the same job and if u choose ur lines can get either a bigger cocker or smaller springer so really no reason to cross them anyway.

 

Can sort of understand (althou don't agree with it) why u would cross a lab/springer, trying to get a harder hunting lab or better coat on a springer or lab/hpr paticulary the GWP to try and tame the beast so to speak but u often just end up **** far ranging hard mouthed lab which is no good at anything

yeah fair enough but as i am not planning to breed from him as i know the risks involved with 2nd gen crossings (mainly due to reading the great info on a lot of gun dog forums) as i have said my dig came from an unplanned mating and i was happy to give a healthy pup a good home i certainly didnt go out to look for a sprocker it kinda "just happened" if you know what i mean :)

 

my dog has turned into a very solidly built cocker sized dog and i understand he could of equally turned out as a lightly built springer sized dog as sprockers are a gamble to a certain extent but which way around the crossing occured seems to have an influence on the resulting dogs, i have done a fair bit of research on this as there is a large group for sprocker owners on face book (1300 members and growing daily) a good few of them are agility dogs and some of them are well respected working dogs too they are a crackin dog no matter what you use them for and i would have another any time and we plan to get a second dog we are still in the decision process for once our current dog is at a suitable age for us to introduce a second dog.

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On 16/09/2013 at 07:23, JDog said:

I see that some posters are using the word 'mongrel' in a very negative and disparaging way wheras it's true meaning is simply mixed breeding.

 

I could say that those posters are 'ignorant' and I would be using the word in it's true sense of 'not knowing the facts' rather than stupid or thick.


 

 

How is your sprocker now Jdog? I believe you have two now? 
 

I think they have turned into well trained good hunting dogs, although I imagine your training helped :) 

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37 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:


 

 

How is your sprocker now Jdog? I believe you have two now? 
 

I think they have turned into well trained good hunting dogs, although I imagine your training helped  

Jasper is now six. A better marker of birds and companion I couldn't imagine. 

Barney is twenty months old. He is a very different dog from Jasper. His training has taken only a few hours and he is steady in the hide and on a peg. His nose for hedgerow birds is very good too and if he pushes one out he runs straight back to me and sits down. I didn't teach him that.

Overall I am delighted with my decisions to get Sprockers. I cannot imagine how I ever did without one for the previous forty years.

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1 hour ago, JDog said:

Jasper is now six. A better marker of birds and companion I couldn't imagine. 

Barney is twenty months old. He is a very different dog from Jasper. His training has taken only a few hours and he is steady in the hide and on a peg. His nose for hedgerow birds is very good too and if he pushes one out he runs straight back to me and sits down. I didn't teach him that.

Overall I am delighted with my decisions to get Sprockers. I cannot imagine how I ever did without one for the previous forty years.

Sounds a bit like Bramble, she seems very intelligent and picks things up quickly however at just over 7 months old she is still a puppy and has a long way to go to be steady. Was there a rough age where your two started to become steadier? 

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21 minutes ago, JTaylor91 said:

Sounds a bit like Bramble, she seems very intelligent and picks things up quickly however at just over 7 months old she is still a puppy and has a long way to go to be steady. Was there a rough age where your two started to become steadier? 

I waited until my dogs developed a brain and I was in tune with them before I did anything other than sit and stay and return. Certainly over 12 months.

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1 minute ago, JDog said:

I waited until my dogs developed a brain and I was in tune with them before I did anything other than sit and stay and return. Certainly over 12 months.

That’s all I have been doing with her really, she just chooses to go deaf now and again which is getting less and less as she gets older. Once she’s a year old we will start properly. 

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