delburt0 Posted September 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) It most probably says on your ticket "vermin" some were on your ticket, - fox are vermin. Sorted. Or get a bigger cal so you can shoot magpies as well. ;-) you will find you have to have fox stipulated separate to vermin Edited September 30, 2013 by delburt0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delburt0 Posted September 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) .17HMR legal for fox in Suffolk but over the border in Essex it is not. Alan i can appreciate England and Scotland having different laws as it comes under different parliaments but we have the same parliament weather it be Newquay or Newcastle so why different rulings through different police forces..... Edited September 30, 2013 by delburt0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lampwick Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 .17HMR legal for fox in Suffolk but over the border in Essex it is not. Alan Not on mine! I asked twice and still got a no! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belly47 Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 I have .17hmr for fox and vermin as pic shows also .22 rifle, I did not stipulate which .22 I wanted on my application so I could decide at a later date which one I wanted ( basc advised me to word it this way) my issuing force is kent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boristhedog Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) you will find you have to have fox stipulated separate to vermin I'm sure you're right but I cannot understand the logic behind some police decisions (no surprise there then). The OED defines vermin as 'wild animals which are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or which carry disease...'. That clearly covers the fox! I haven't got fox, just vermin on my .17 HMR but have fox and other medium quarry on my .243. Strange. Edited September 30, 2013 by Boristhedog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delburt0 Posted September 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 I'm sure you're right but I cannot understand the logic of behind some police decisions (no surprise there then). The OED defines vermin as 'wild animals which are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or which carry disease...'. That clearly covers the fox! I haven't got fox, just vermin on my .17 HMR but have fox and other medium quarry on my .243. Strange. well that's the nod I got but as far as I am concerned fox has been on for my 22 hornet and 22/250 so why not for .17hmr and before anyone debates about no one will no like I have heard before today no one is still willing to put it in black and white, where as certain forces will.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanl50 Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Not on mine! I asked twice and still got a no! Thats weird my FEO on giving me options on first FAC application advised .17HMR as I fox legal and .22lr is not so I chose .17 HMR, makes no odds anyway as I use .243 for foxes but I will ask him again out of interest. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 and in Cambs I asked for Fox for my .22wmr but was told it would have to be CF minimum for Fox as a dedicated rifle but that I had AOLQ so that covered it, they said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 you will find you have to have fox stipulated separate to vermin Oh no you don't, some forces try and push that but basc even stuck their head up and said crack on if you have a vermin or pest control condition, feo's don't make the law but they do add their interpretation and in this case it's impossible to defend in court. As an aside I've had them listed on mine then just had deer and pest control as a blanket condition on all rifles. The only thing you can say is they aren't on the list of calibers as dedicated reasons to obtain a caliber but to shoot close foxes they work very well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oxfordfowler Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Thames Valley would not allow Fox for my HMR. I woudn't mind betting that more Foxes are shot (nationally) with HMR that any other rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullet boy Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Got Fox for .17HMR on my ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprackles Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 This is what mine says.....as previously stated this is a new issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Nope, Leicestershire when I was there would only condition a CF for fox, Notts, where I have just moved would only condition the WMR for fox, but not the HMR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 .17HMR legal for fox in Suffolk but over the border in Essex it is not. Alan For clarification .17HMR IS LEGAL to shoot foxes ANYWHERE in England. Your region may not condition your FAC in that manner, therefore YOU will not be allowed to use it, but it does not change the legality of using, HMR, .22lr, etc., for fox. ALL my rifles are AOLQ, (they had fox specifically listed anyway before AOLQ came along) so I could visit Essex (or any other area that refuses to grant it) and stand next to a Local shooter and perfectly legally shoot fox all day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 This "Fox with a Rim Fire", Mentoring, AOLQ etc is a complete postcode lottery! Why the heck can they not all start singing from the same hymn sheet so we all know exactly where we stand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I thought HMR was a standard mid-range fox rifle... IMHO it seems like a pointless calibre otherwise - expensive for rabbit, too fast for most ranges, too light for wind etc etc. What would they allow it for? It is a longer range (than .22lr) accurate, vermin control tool, in the right circumstances that means fox as well. It stemmed from a Wildcat round used for this purpose, it was never intended as a target tool and has very little use for this purpose. Cost is not a factor in selecting the suitability of ANY rifle/calibre for any given job. You select the best/only tool for the job, if a cheaper calibre does the job as well or better then, why were you using the HMR anyway? The HMR is LESS effected by the wind than .22lr! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 New FAC holder and got HMR and .22 for vermin, zeroing AOLQ and Humane despatch. This is what mine says.....as previously stated this is a new issue. If you re-read your conditions you will see that you are not permitted to use your rifles for humane dispatch. You are confusing the standard expanding ammo condition with what you may use your rifles for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 As others have said, there is no law against using either .22lr or .17hmr against fox in appropriate circumstances. The guidelines issued to police forces suggest that the shooting of foxes is not "good reason" for owning a rimfire but that is not the same thing. Unfortunately the feo tends to interpret that as meaning that it is not suitable for fox. Whether fox is "vermin" in this context has never been tested in court. It is generally accepted, however, that fox probably is vermin and therefore if you have vermin on your licence you are "probably" ok to shoot fox, but until there has been a test case it is a bit of a lottery. If your licence does not mention fox anywhere, but does include "any other lawful quarry", you are ok to shoot fox. In my own case the wording of my "open" certificate is: regarding the rifles ".... shall be used for shooting vermin & ground game...." regarding the ammunition ".... used only in connection with the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife." When it is due for renewal next year I shall ask for the addition of aolq but until them will use it for opportunistic fox at short distances. My defence is that fox are vermin and that my shot is humane. As with so many certificates, the wording is a bit woolly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 How about this....would you shoot a Muntjac with a .22 or 17? Plenty of those are smaller and weigh less than a big dog fox. I guess you could but at what distance and that is where the problem starts is weight of the round and the distance you would want to knock over your quarry... For me c/fire is the correct tool for foxes as plenty of times they come so far and just stop and look... We like to kill them in under 5 seconds as once they are off and through the hedge then a lost chance... The closer you have to call a fox the greater you will give your self away...foxes often run back a 100 yards then give you a look, so that kicks the .22&.17's back in the gun safe... TEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camokid Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 i have fox on the 17 and do shoot them with that ....but if i was going foxing then it would be cf rounds the 17 has its place for foxing small farms built up areas that sort of thing where you would class cf as too much gun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Dadioles has summed up the situation just about right. I would urge everyone to read the guidelines, particularly sections 13.19, 13.20 & 13.25. Also, for those who don't have AOLQ, it would be prudent to find out if their force policy on fox. Remembering that some forces consider fox vermin and some don't I personally don't subscribe to the view "that fox is vermin and I'll argue it in court" theory. One may win such a case but I doubt it will do ones relationship with firearms licensing a lot of good. Far better to get what you want written clearly on your FAC and in doing so build up a relationship with your licensing dept. If you have problems getting the conditions you require it is far better dealing directly with your licensing manager rather than your FEO and insist everything is confirmed in writing. The situation described by the OP sums this up nicely, his FEO is just being abrasive and I personally would not enter into a dialogue with him. Far better to go directly to the horse's mouth with clear and concise reasons for ones request and above all, refused to be fobbed off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprackles Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 If you re-read your conditions you will see that you are not permitted to use your rifles for humane dispatch. You are confusing the standard expanding ammo condition with what you may use your rifles for. Then can you tell me what condition 6 b is then...or is there a different meaning to the words The humane killing of animals. It seems a pointless exercise to add it after the condition allowing vermin control etc as we all wish to kill cleanly and humanely. More ambiguity it seems....always a differing set of opinions across all spectrums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Then can you tell me what condition 6 b is then...or is there a different meaning to the words The humane killing of animals. It seems a pointless exercise to add it after the condition allowing vermin control etc as we all wish to kill cleanly and humanely. More ambiguity it seems....always a differing set of opinions across all spectrums. Condition 6 is the standard expanding ammo condition all quarry shooters have and refers to what expanding ammo can be used for. Condition 5 says what you can use your rifles for. So you can humanly kill a something covered by condition 5 but not anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) AOLQ is to be used in conjunction with a higher condition i.e. deer or fox.It allows you to take smaller quarry than your main reason for having the rifle. I have AOLQ for my .17hmr and AOLQ isn't used for a higher condition allowing you to take smaller quarry. It is what it says it is, Any Other Lawful Quarry. Edited October 1, 2013 by r1steele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 This "Fox with a Rim Fire", Mentoring, AOLQ etc is a complete postcode lottery! Why the heck can they not all start singing from the same hymn sheet so we all know exactly where we stand? I agree. It should be one clear law and set of rules/restrictions across the whole country. I also wish BASC and other organisations would tackle more forces and FLO`s over this matter. I have .17HMR for vermin and fox. Although my new FLO said he/they wont allow the AOLQ condition in west mercia and that I wouldnt ever get it or be allowed it. ATB Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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