goodo123 Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Ok first time i've come off, uninjured well apart from my pride, was on a lesson earlier. Bit of back ground info: did one taster on a 125 did cbt on 125 had one off-road lesson on the 650 and about 3 hours on the road and we'll today it just went poo. Was doing stop start exercises pulling away from curb etc getting a bit faster pulling away stopping in correct position etc. Then went for a bit of a ride. Was totally fine until coming up to a set of lights. Lights went red, slowed down as I should, then it just went strange. Stopped on back break totaly fine. Lights change start to try to pull away, bike lost balance (at a standstill) tilts left, foot down again, bike keeps tilting and must have been the slowest lay down in history. Even the instructor had no idea what happened. I hadn't done anything different?. Anyway I pick up the bike put it in neutral, push it onto pavement and dust myself off. Got back to the school and instructor says that they had another off earlier from an experienced rider (doing advanced training) he was more or less doing the same but turning right. No idea what happened their either. Now any ideas folks? I know it's a bit hard because u wasn't their. Just been talking to my mate about it and he said it could be a sticky rear brake? Is this usual on a bike? before anyone says no I wasn't dragging the rear when pulling away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Clutch control or not enough throttle when pulling away. Also, whilst you are learning - don't put your feet back on the pegs until you have gained some forward momentum. When a bike starts to fall at a standstill, you only have about 5 or 10 degrees of lean before it becomes very difficult to stop it. Better to swallow your pride and lay it down in a controlled manner (as you did) rather than giving yourself a hernia or slipped disc trying to save it. It happens, dust yourself off and carry on. Good luck with your test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) Just another thought, you say you stopped using the rear brake? Not sure if that's what they teach now, but mastering your front brake is essential as stopping quickly and effectively without it is nigh on impossible. If coming to a stop slowly on a loose or greasy surface, then just using the rear might be advisable. On a good surface in the dry, you should be using mostly front brake with a smidge of rear. Edited October 17, 2013 by Blunderbuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbust Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) Just another thought, you say you stopped using the rear brake? Not sure if that's what they teach now, but mastering your front brake is essential as stopping quickly and effectively without it is nigh on impossible. If coming to a stop slowly on a loose or greasy surface, then just using the rear might be advisable. On a good surface in the dry, you should be using mostly front brake with a smidge of rear. Yes, I agree with what BB said, unless they have changed the teaching. Well done goodo123 on setting it down the way you did . Edited October 17, 2013 by Blunderbust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stubby Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 having ridden bikes since I was 16, now 49, I only ever use front brake, as its much safer, little rear in the wet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 If only your pride is hurt you came out of the situation fairly well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobbyathome Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 i do agree with blunderbuss regarding the rear brake i very rarely use mine the only time i do use it is to stableise the bike sometimes or of course in an emergency the control of your front brake is imperative (i have a funny feeling you might have touched the front brake and the front folded and then thats why you toppled) when you are on your own in a deserted road practice stopping on front brake only until you can do it in your sleep once you have mastered that you will find riding a lot more fun and safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100milesaway Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Are you sure you were in 1st gear? from Auntie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Don't try reverse steering to corner just yet!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 don't worry mate, you'll get the hang of it, i fall off all the time there's no shame in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lincs1963 Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Just another thought, you say you stopped using the rear brake? Not sure if that's what they teach now, but mastering your front brake is essential as stopping quickly and effectively without it is nigh on impossible. If coming to a stop slowly on a loose or greasy surface, then just using the rear might be advisable. On a good surface in the dry, you should be using mostly front brake with a smidge of rear. Below about 10mph, back brake only, all low speed maneuvering, back brake only. Using the front brake causes the front to dive, even if only a little and this affects the steering. At higher speeds the back brake is, quite often, not used because if you are braking hard enough on the front there is no weight on the rear so it will just lock up anyway. This is taught at cbt level and at advanced. On the old bikes with drum brakes you needed front, back and stick your foot down! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Did the bike slip out from under you, was it wet? diesel or oil at lights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) Below about 10mph, back brake only, all low speed maneuvering, back brake only. Using the front brake causes the front to dive, even if only a little and this affects the steering. At higher speeds the back brake is, quite often, not used because if you are braking hard enough on the front there is no weight on the rear so it will just lock up anyway. This is taught at cbt level and at advanced. On the old bikes with drum brakes you needed front, back and stick your foot down!I get the use of rear brake for control during low speed maneuvers, u turns and the like, but not when coming to a stop. That is unless you are on gravel, a greasy surface or similar where there might be a danger of the front washing out. Back brake only to stop (on a good surface) isn't taught at advanced level in my experience, I'm a RoSPA gold advanced rider, I suspect my Police Class One qualified examiner would have failed me if I just used the rear to stop. If they teach this at CBT that might explain why I see so many inexperienced riders who are scared to use their front brake full stop. A real recipe for disaster in their later riding careers IMHO. I know what you mean about drum brakes though. As well a modern Triumph 1050 triple, I have an old BSA 650 twin, with drums at both ends. It scares the life out of me if I haven't ridden it for a while and recalibrated my brain to the rubbish stopping power! Edited October 17, 2013 by Blunderbuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodo123 Posted October 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 We'll I was taught light back squeeze front then when down to about 5mph rear only to complete stop. Yes I was in first. I just can't get my head around it. Their wasn't any grease etc unless it was really well matched to the road surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDown Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I don't want to turn this into an advanced riding thread but using rear brake when stopping from speed is very much part of advanced riding. Ideally you will not lock the rear but if you do you release and reapply. There is no problem stopping on the back brake only - why would there be? Wouldn't try it from high speed - the extra distance it takes is scary!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I don't want to turn this into an advanced riding thread but using rear brake when stopping from speed is very much part of advanced riding. Ideally you will not lock the rear but if you do you release and reapply. There is no problem stopping on the back brake only - why would there be? Wouldn't try it from high speed - the extra distance it takes is scary!!! Well have to agree to disagree! I use the rear only to stop on poor surfaces. 70/30 front rear on good surfaces in the dry, and perhaps 50/50 on an otherwise good road in the wet. Your final sentence says it all where learners and new riders are concerned. If they are taught to come to a stop ONLY using the rear, they develop a fear of the front brake. Muscle memory, learned behavior and panic take over when they need to pull up in a hurry, and they just use the far less effective rear with predicable and painful results :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodo123 Posted October 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Well have to agree to disagree! I use the rear only to stop on poor surfaces. 70/30 front rear on good surfaces in the dry, and perhaps 50/50 on an otherwise good road in the wet. Your final sentence says it all where learners and new riders are concerned. If they are taught to come to a stop ONLY using the rear, they develop a fear of the front brake. Muscle memory, learned behavior and panic take over when they need to pull up in a hurry, and they just use the far less effective rear with predicable and painful results :( At first I was using front only in the street when in a straight line but got told this was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) At first I was using front only in the street when in a straight line but got told this was wrong. Sorry goodo, didn't mean to derail your thread and confuse you. Do what your instructors tell you and ignore any advice on here, including mine! Until you pass your test at least. But I do recommend further training when you do pass. A very good start is the police Bike Safe course if they do that where you live. Hope it all goes OK and you have a long, safe and above all enjoyable two wheeled career Edited October 17, 2013 by Blunderbuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRNDL Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) I use my rear more than anything...and I also drag my rear brake ever so slightly when cornering. (when riding aggressively only) Sometimes setting off needs a steady clutch and ample amounts of revs to help pull away and through the tipping point. Edited October 17, 2013 by BRNDL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodo123 Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 I use my rear more than anything...and I also drag my rear brake ever so slightly when cornering. (when riding aggressively only) Sometimes setting off needs a steady clutch and ample amounts of revs to help pull away and through the tipping point. The even strangstranger thing is iI havent stalled yet... Apart from catching the kill switch while dropping it. I also on my second lesson felt really comfortable, so much so the instructor took me around some pretty fast bends on a roads and overtaking on duel carriageway. I really don't know what's happened... I don't rev the nuts off it when taking off but I'm no where close to stalling. I think it's probably more of a mental thing overthinking things slowing me down. I also do this sometimes claying and know I'm going to miss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100milesaway Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Your not on a top heavy V twin are you 'cause they are very prone to being droppable at stall/slow speeds.Does it have fuel injection'cause again some of the earlier bikes are not always set up right.from Auntie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 When i was learning I did exactly this only I didnt have the sense to let it go and went over the highside, my momentum throwing me over the bike! Sounds to me like a classic touch of front brake folding, it's a strange thing being taught back brake mostly just like I was but once you're riding regularly the back becomes little more than a balancing brake just for low speed. Keep on though, I love my bike and it halves my commute time as I thread the jams. Best piece of advice from my instructor was don't ride like they might try to kill you, ride like they are all actively trying to kill you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalmac Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 I did that back when I did my lessons before my test! just done a really good turn in road infront of my instructor at a controlled slow speed and was so impressed with myself I forgot to put my feet down when i stopped! haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krugerandsmith Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Just another thought, you say you stopped using the rear brake? Not sure if that's what they teach now, but mastering your front brake is essential as stopping quickly and effectively without it is nigh on impossible. If coming to a stop slowly on a loose or greasy surface, then just using the rear might be advisable. On a good surface in the dry, you should be using mostly front brake with a smidge of rear. Having ridden bikes from 16 now 71 ..... No crashes and ... yes this is how you should use your brakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodo123 Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Your not on a top heavy V twin are you 'cause they are very prone to being droppable at stall/slow speeds.Does it have fuel injection'cause again some of the earlier bikes are not always set up right.from Auntie. Its a eryer6n if that hehelps, it hashasn't put me off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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