Found out I've been sold an unproofed gun. What now ?

[oneshot1979]

First ever post after years of reading everyone elses.

Advice and opinions sought on a problem I'm having.

Many years ago and shortly after being granted an FAC for my late fathers bolt action shotgun I decided to make real use of the license and apply for a rifle, not having any experiance with rifles I sought out opinions from other shooters I knew and armed with everyone elses opinions off I went to a local gunshop of very high repute. I explained my wants and needs and after much tea and biscuits the shop owner and myself came to the conclusion that due to this being my first application a rimfire would be the best choice. I was happy with that, I didn't want to much gun as I was only after small game and the occasional fox when it strayed to close the yard, looking through the shop I was presented with a CZ452e chambered in .22wmr, neat, light, scoped and screw cut with a moderator already supplied, I was sold on it and three weeks later was back at the shop with the appropriate permission and cash. Fast forward 10 years and my collection and experiance have grown considerably, friends young and old now come to me for advice instead, one young lad where I work has expressed a real interest in starting shooting and has taken a real shine to my trusty yet dusty .22wmr, so I thought I 'd get it valued......... Firstly it's not worth a third of what I paid due to the advent of newer calibres like the .17hmr and .17wsm, never mind. The biggest shock was that it is unproofed. The action is stamped and all above board but the screwcutting on the end of the barrel has never been stamped or subjected to re proofing, This doesn't really phase me as I don't consider it a safety issue after firing well over a thousand rounds down it but what it does mean is that I cannot sell it on with out reproofing it, effectively I'll be giving it away. The gunshop I was in reckons I would be well within my rights to go back to the original shop and demand a deal due to them selling me an un proofed gun, I still have the original reciept from the sale all those years ago and it states clearly that it was screwcut. If nothing else I think they should offer to have it proofed for me. I know it's ten years down the line but the laws the law.

Thanks in advance for your time.

[welshwarrior]

It won't be stamped at the muzzle if came from the factory into the UK screw cut.

[stumpy69]

As he said. A lot of them come from the factory screwcut so are only stamped at the action.

[Gordon R]

Just read up on previous posts on this very subject. It is not as clear cut as the OP would like it to be.

 

He can ask the original seller, but they might well refuse to do anything at all.

[shaun4860]

All depends on whether its factory cut or not?

 

Cant remember my CZ .22lr being stamped at the end?

 

[CharlieT]

I believe I'm correct in saying that CZ is a CIP member and as such do not need to be submitted for proof in the UK.

They do not stamp at the end of the barrel when it has been factory screw cut.

[thepasty]

both my CZ are screw cut and no proof stamp.

[oneshot1979]

So what we're thinking is that the shop I got the valuation from may well be misinformed ?. I hope so.

Looking around the internet tonight for prices and I've found another local shop that has the same rifle up for sale, will call in the morning and ask them to have a quick check of their muzzle, and on the up side it looks like the gun's worth a bit more than my first quote.

[Gimlet]

I had a similar issue with a rifle I bought second hand from a dealer who had taken it in part exchange. The previous owner had shortened and threaded the barrel. It was a non standard length so the threading could not have been done by the factory. When I tried to PX it myself at another dealer he wouldn't touch it because it wasn't stamped. I was told that you may thread your own rifle and use it without reproofing, but non-factory threading must be proofed and stamped before the rifle can be re-sold. The dealer, having taken in a rifle with a non-factory adaption should have had it proofed before selling it on. They didn't, therefore they should not have sold it to me. I went back to them and said they had left me with an unsaleable rifle. I didn't expect my money back - I'd had it too long and put too many rounds through it. But they were at fault so they took it back off me at a sensible market price that it might have been expected to make had it been all stamped and above board, and I was happy with that.

I reckon this happens all the time and only gets noticed when non-factory work gets spotted by a knowledgeable buyer.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Gimlet

[Elby]

I've never seen the end of the barrel stamped.

It should have a UK stamp on it if it was sent for proofing after being screw cut.

If factory cut it may have a proof stamp from the factory or nothing at all

[Dekers]

If this is a matter of a later screw cut not being proofed then it is not required.

 

This has been debated many times, you CAN sell guns that have not been reproofed after cutting/screw work.

 

http://jacksonrifles.com/zz-silencers/files/proof-counsels-opinion.pdf

Edited November 27, 2013 by Dekers

[JonathanL]

First ever post after years of reading everyone elses.

Advice and opinions sought on a problem I'm having.

Many years ago and shortly after being granted an FAC for my late fathers bolt action shotgun I decided to make real use of the license and apply for a rifle, not having any experiance with rifles I sought out opinions from other shooters I knew and armed with everyone elses opinions off I went to a local gunshop of very high repute. I explained my wants and needs and after much tea and biscuits the shop owner and myself came to the conclusion that due to this being my first application a rimfire would be the best choice. I was happy with that, I didn't want to much gun as I was only after small game and the occasional fox when it strayed to close the yard, looking through the shop I was presented with a CZ452e chambered in .22wmr, neat, light, scoped and screw cut with a moderator already supplied, I was sold on it and three weeks later was back at the shop with the appropriate permission and cash. Fast forward 10 years and my collection and experiance have grown considerably, friends young and old now come to me for advice instead, one young lad where I work has expressed a real interest in starting shooting and has taken a real shine to my trusty yet dusty .22wmr, so I thought I 'd get it valued......... Firstly it's not worth a third of what I paid due to the advent of newer calibres like the .17hmr and .17wsm, never mind. The biggest shock was that it is unproofed. The action is stamped and all above board but the screwcutting on the end of the barrel has never been stamped or subjected to re proofing, This doesn't really phase me as I don't consider it a safety issue after firing well over a thousand rounds down it but what it does mean is that I cannot sell it on with out reproofing it, effectively I'll be giving it away. The gunshop I was in reckons I would be well within my rights to go back to the original shop and demand a deal due to them selling me an un proofed gun, I still have the original reciept from the sale all those years ago and it states clearly that it was screwcut. If nothing else I think they should offer to have it proofed for me. I know it's ten years down the line but the laws the law.

Thanks in advance for your time.

 

You do not have to have a barrel re-proved if you have the muzzle threaded. This was money making scam dreampt up by the proof house after they lost lots of business proofing pistols years back.

 

The law provides that a barrel only becomes out of proof if you do something which "substantially reduces it in substance or strength" (that's from memory so might not be the precise wording) and threading a muzzle does not do that in 99% of cases.

 

Peter Jackson had a Barrister write an opinion to this effect. It is on his website.

 

J.

I had a similar issue with a rifle I bought second hand from a dealer who had taken it in part exchange. The previous owner had shortened and threaded the barrel. It was a non standard length so the threading could not have been done by the factory. When I tried to PX it myself at another dealer he wouldn't touch it because it wasn't stamped. I was told that you may thread your own rifle and use it without reproofing, but non-factory threading must be proofed and stamped before the rifle can be re-sold. The dealer, having taken in a rifle with a non-factory adaption should have had it proofed before selling it on. They didn't, therefore they should not have sold it to me. I went back to them and said they had left me with an unsaleable rifle. I didn't expect my money back - I'd had it too long and put too many rounds through it. But they were at fault so they took it back off me at a sensible market price that it might have been expected to make had it been all stamped and above board, and I was happy with that.

I reckon this happens all the time and only gets noticed when non-factory work gets spotted by a knowledgeable buyer.

 

 

This is incorrect. See my post above and the Jackson Rifles website.

 

J.

If this is a matter of a later screw cut not being proofed then it is not required.

 

This has been debated many times, you CAN sell guns that have not been reproofed after cutting/screw work.

 

http://jacksonrifles.com/zz-silencers/files/proof-counsels-opinion.pdf

 

Beat me to it.

 

J.

Edited November 28, 2013 by JonathanL

[Gimlet]

Some RFDs don't know the rules either then. When I took my rifle back to the original dealer they also believed it should have been stamped and accepted the error was theirs. Unless the fact that my rifle was shortened as well as threaded made a difference. This sort of confusion shouldn't happen. If RFDs don't know the rules what chance have buyers got?

[daz2202]

My cz hornet I picked up brand new today is not stamped and one is my hmr. So I wouldn't worry too much

[Dekers]

Some RFDs don't know the rules either then. When I took my rifle back to the original dealer they also believed it should have been stamped and accepted the error was theirs. Unless the fact that my rifle was shortened as well as threaded made a difference. This sort of confusion shouldn't happen. If RFDs don't know the rules what chance have buyers got?

 

Totally agree, but this cut/threading/re-proof malarkey is a load of bull put about by the proof houses.

 

Unfortunately some insurance companies have got hold of it and insist the RFD they insure get any cut/thread, proofed/reproofed. This is NOT a legal requirement, it is simply a requirement of the RFD's Insurer. Back to the old **** covering rubbish.

 

Over the last few years I have purchased from a RFD a .22WMR that had been cut/re-threaded but not re-proofed. Having owned it for a few years I sold it to a different RFD with no issue at all, and I know he has subsequently resold it, still no re-proof!

 

Edited November 28, 2013 by Dekers

[JonathanL]

Some RFDs don't know the rules either then. When I took my rifle back to the original dealer they also believed it should have been stamped and accepted the error was theirs. Unless the fact that my rifle was shortened as well as threaded made a difference. This sort of confusion shouldn't happen. If RFDs don't know the rules what chance have buyers got?

 

Valid points. The fact that it was shortened as well makes no difference. Logically it can't as you can't proof something which is no longer there!

 

J.

[Elby]

I was always told (true or not) that if any weight is taken off the barrel it has to be re-proofed

[JonathanL]

I was always told (true or not) that if any weight is taken off the barrel it has to be re-proofed

 

Most certainly not true. "Significantly reduced in substance or strength" is the way the Act is worded, I think.

Also, moderators do not need proof.

 

J.

Edited November 29, 2013 by JonathanL

[Greenhunter]

I was always told (true or not) that if any weight is taken off the barrel it has to be re-proofed

That is correct in terms of a shotgun which is threaded to take chokes and possibly shortening them too but I doubt it would apply to shortening a rifle.

 

 

 

GH

[JonathanL]

That is correct in terms of a shotgun which is threaded to take chokes and possibly shortening them too but I doubt it would apply to shortening a rifle.

 

 

 

GH

 

Precisely. Shotgun barrels are much thinner than those of most other firearms. Hence, removing far less metal will result in a significant reduction in substance or strength. I'm not sure it would apply simply to shortening it though. Cutting something off the barrel isn't likely to reduce the strength of the remaining part.

 

J.

[oneshot1979]

All settled now.

Spoke to gun shop No:2 and asked them about the rifle they had in stock, identical gun, even has the iron sights and front blade removed for scope fitment, barrel is threaded with no stamp at the crown. Had a brief chat with them retelling my tale and had everything you guys have posted confirmed, they even admitted that they'd put a few screwcut centrefires in for reproofing along with moderators before the situation was clarified.

Thanks for all the responses, glad I didn't go storming back to where I purchased the gun originally, only trouble is now that I've dug it out and been using it I don't want to part with it, I'd forgotten how nice it is to use, on a windy night when the .22lr struggles with longer shots the WMR never fails. Spent the weekend with it and took three tree rats off the log pile and then using them for maggie bait. 33gr Vmax at 70yds on a maggie is a sight to see. Looks like the .22lr will be getting dusty now.....