chrisjh Posted January 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 is it true a vet can give advise / prescribe for humans but a doctor cant give any advice / prescribe for animals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 In all honesty I find all the professions greedy and find fees of several hundred pounds an hour hard to justify whether you are a vet a dentist or an accountant. I don't know how I can make the point any clearer. It is VERY EXPENSIVE providing an operating theatre with skilled staff, sterile equipment, tens of thousands of pounds worth of drugs and consumables, training courses, monitoring equipment, etc etc etc Take something like a simple bitch spay. You might pay a couple of hundred pounds with your vet. The same operation with BUPA for a woman to have a hysterectomy would cost many thousands of pounds. Do you have any idea how much health care costs to provide? I suspect not. See a rather extreme example: http://www.viralnova.com/hospital-bill/ There is not massive profiteering, even if you are presented with a large bill. is it true a vet can give advise / prescribe for humans but a doctor cant give any advice / prescribe for animals It's messy. There is no protection in law to stop anyone practising medicine on another, so long as the person practising the medicine doesn't miss-represent themselves. The protection for animals is much more robust (ie only a veterinary surgeon can practice veterinary surgery) as much because animals need protecting and cannot offer their own consent. It would be perfectly legal for me to remove your appendix, but I can only posses medicines in my duties as a vet so we'd have to do it with you awake! There are provisions for use of certain medicines in an emergency, and in dire straights it's an exemption I'd stand behind. All sorts of messy issues with insurance and liability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 But if you removed my appendix would I have to wear one of those cones for a week or two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 I don't know how I can make the point any clearer. It is VERY EXPENSIVE providing an operating theatre with skilled staff, sterile equipment, tens of thousands of pounds worth of drugs and consumables, training courses, monitoring equipment, etc etc etc I think therein lies the problem. If Mrs Miggins brings her dog in with a broken toe she doesn't need the new machine that goes ping, or the numerous drug companies offerings, and she probably doesn't even need an x-ray, what she needs is a splint and a kind word but she will end up paying a pro-rata fraction of the overall cost the vet has made into all of their specialist equipment. Plus if she is particularly unlucky she will leave with a bag of Purina, or some other over-priced nutritionally balanced dog food, conveniently located at the reception, and from which the vet gets a handy commission. I'm not saying people become vets to be rich, clearly not, but Vets, like any other profession, run businesses and if making money, whether for profit of just to survive, comes too high on the agenda then the care of the animal comes lower down the order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twocore Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 In all honesty I find all the professions greedy and find fees of several hundred pounds an hour hard to justify whether you are a vet a dentist or an accountant. I totally agree with this, greed greed and more greed is their motivation ,solicitors,barristers,bankers etc being the worst,i hate them with a passion,what was said before,,good care costs money, ********,,,,,,back on track,the vets around this area all charge £100 for out of hours,might have gone up a bit since my dog last needed them,,,but that price was set by all of them agreeing,,,price fixing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 But if you removed my appendix would I have to wear one of those cones for a week or two? Only if you could chew the stitches. But seriously, my local vets in Cardigan are really good and way, way cheaper than the vets were in Kent. I can't tell you how impressed I was with the Cardigan vets when I had to have one of my dogs put down, cancer, they sent two people to my house, were really sympathetic and professional, and I mean really professional and all for a fraction of the price that the vets in the South East would have charged. I didn't even ask the price beforehand - it simply wasn't an issue at the time - but they were very fair and I will use them again. I have no connection with them, except as a very impressed customer. http://www.prioryvetscardigan.co.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I totally agree with this, greed greed and more greed is their motivation ,solicitors,barristers,bankers etc being the worst,i hate them with a passion,what was said before,,good care costs money, ********,,,,,,back on track,the vets around this area all charge £100 for out of hours,might have gone up a bit since my dog last needed them,,,but that price was set by all of them agreeing,,,price fixing. I've explained, but some of you either don't understand or are not listening. Veterinary medicine is not crazy money and I really resent you lumping vets in with solicitors, bankers and barristers. Look for yourself on average salaries, remembering that half the vets is the survey earn less than the figure quoted: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-2269520/Best-paid-jobs-2012-Official-figures-national-average-UK-salaries-400-occupations.html (down @ 109). The very great majority of vets are not making crazy money, many are struggling to stay afloat. I personally don't sell pet food, but those vets that do the margins are tiny. There are no secret back handers, we buy it wholesale and sell it retail. Perhaps the £5 on a bag of dog food helps keep the doors open and OOH that little bit more affordable when you need it? I've just bought a puppy and I can buy the puppy food in Tesco for less money retail that I can buy from my wholesaler wholesale! Also remember that 1/6 of your bill goes straight to the government as VAT, the £100 OOH fee is only £83.33 to the vet. How much to get a plumber out at 1am? Hell of a lot more than that. Veterinary fees in this county are very reasonable on the whole. Countries where people pay for their healthcare have much higher vet fees, because people perceive a value to the highly qualified professionals providing private healthcare to their animals. We get no external support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twocore Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Veterinary medicine is not crazy money and I really resent you lumping vets in with solicitors, bankers and barristers. No offence meant,you try and cure misery the others thrive off it,,,,,,,,professional parasites.[ speaking from experience,before any one starts] Good care costs money,,,,,bad care is just the same or dearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegasus bridge Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Within reason I don't begrudge vets a god income - a long period of qualification should be rewarded accordingly . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) Gone are the days of Seigfried Farnon and James Herriot who would simply put their cash payments in a mug on the mantle piece. The Veterinary profession is just that, a profession, and they do have to cover a lot of overheads. However I do agree that there seems to be one rule for the insured and another for the uninsured. I once obtained two quotes for the cleaning of my border terriers teeth. This naturally involved a general anaesthetic. The prices, from two vets in the same practice, were identical. After the job had been done the bill I was presented with was nothing like the quote - they had added on as extras the cost of all sorts of things including the cost of the chemicals needed to put the dog under and another lot for bringing him round again, and another fee for 'the use of the operating room'. I calmly told them what I was going to pay (the original quote), paid it, and left the surgery. I have not been back. Edited January 13, 2014 by JDog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 But if you removed my appendix would I have to wear one of those cones for a week or two? That depends on how far you can reach with your tongue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuji Shooter Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 My vet now seems to be toting around in a brand new Porsche Panamera, business must be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) Within reason I don't begrudge vets a god income - a long period of qualification should be rewarded accordingly . Precisely. What many people patiently fail to realise when paying professionals a large hourly fee, is that they are not paying for labour in the same way as they would be if they were paying for example a manual worker at £6.50 an hour. They are paying, apart from the qualifications, for the protection that is afforded by using a professional. Four example if you use a lawyer or accountant and they make a cock up, you have redress in the law to be able to be compensated for that. If your lawyer charges you £250 an hour for work that you couldn't possibly do yourself, then you're not paying £250 an hour for their actual labour. You're paying towards the entire running of that legal practice, you're paying for the years of qualifications and experience that has led that lawyer to be able to solve your problem for you in the way that only they can. If you think it's expensive to hire a professional, just wait till you hire an amateur. Edited January 13, 2014 by Thunderbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 This Vet bashing crops up with regular monotony, and frankly its boring and moronic The majority of people I have come across, that whinge about vets fees, think that treating an animal is some simple thing that you could do with a spanner, trowel or chisel. It is mostly borne of jealousy, that they wish they could charge the same amount. Apache has given an insight into the difference between gross and net, and as ever, it is just not getting through. When you next consider getting a new "best friend", think about the costs involved and insure it. I am very happy that there are other professionals out there on higher salaries than me. It means they employ my services I am now off to put a set of shoes on a vets horse.............point made!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Makes a nice change from police bashing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 This Vet bashing crops up with regular monotony, and frankly its boring and moronic The majority of people I have come across, that whinge about vets fees, think that treating an animal is some simple thing that you could do with a spanner, trowel or chisel. It is mostly borne of jealousy, that they wish they could charge the same amount. Apache has given an insight into the difference between gross and net, and as ever, it is just not getting through. When you next consider getting a new "best friend", think about the costs involved and insure it. I am very happy that there are other professionals out there on higher salaries than me. It means they employ my services I am now off to put a set of shoes on a vets horse.............point made!! Referring to the post i put, The cat had internal damage that would have been less that a 25% of survival its liver was ruptured, its pelvis was broken as well as its back leg and skin grafts would have been needed, they said they were unsure of any other internal damage until they did further investigation. The first question was as you would expect "are you insured ?" What i fail to understand is they have already found out about the injury's, internal being the life threatening ones yet they still asked if they could try and save the cat. Why it would not be able to live its life as a cat does due to the damage. So why not do the only think sensible and put it to sleep and end its suffering. Oh! of course they would only pick up about £50 and not nearly £400 how sill of me. And i fully understand not all stories will be the same, my wife has or did have 2 horses 1 of which damaged its Check ligament which had brilliant treatment from an exceptionally good vet who is internationally known for his knowledge and results in equine veterinary so no its not a vet knocking post. They do a fantastic job and i am also fully aware of the study that's needed to become a fully qualified vet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Referring to the post i put, The cat had internal damage that would have been less that a 25% of survival its liver was ruptured, its pelvis was broken as well as its back leg and skin grafts would have been needed, they said they were unsure of any other internal damage until they did further investigation. The first question was as you would expect "are you insured ?" What i fail to understand is they have already found out about the injury's, internal being the life threatening ones yet they still asked if they could try and save the cat. Why it would not be able to live its life as a cat does due to the damage. So why not do the only think sensible and put it to sleep and end its suffering. Oh! of course they would only pick up about £50 and not nearly £400 how sill of me. And i fully understand not all stories will be the same, my wife has or did have 2 horses 1 of which damaged its Check ligament which had brilliant treatment from an exceptionally good vet who is internationally known for his knowledge and results in equine veterinary so no its not a vet knocking post. They do a fantastic job and i am also fully aware of the study that's needed to become a fully qualified vet. Of course they would ask if its insured. The cost for treatment/care would be high given the injuries. They ask because given your consent, they can crack on with the treatment. If however, you are not insured, it will often make the decision not to continue with treatment. An awful dilemma. Vets cannot provide a charity handout to those that choose not to insure their pets. What a lot here have overlooked is that a vet is in the profession to preserve life wherever possible. Your cat had a 25% chance of survival. It was not the vets remit to end its life of his own volition. He/she asked you if they could try and save it. You could have refused. I have a client who's cat sustained horrific injuries, at the very ,least, the equal of yours, with less chance of survival. It did survive, and is a happy as larry. There are plenty of dog amputees about including working dogs, that are perfectly happy firing on three cylinders. Some people want the vet to do their utmost to save a life at whatever the cost, others don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Quite. It would be a shame everytime I took my car to the garage if they said it's going to cost £200 why not scrap it............ (Cat sounds quite 'fixable' - 25% seems a very pessamistic outlook) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbitraider1 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Referring to the post i put, The cat had internal damage that would have been less that a 25% of survival its liver was ruptured, its pelvis was broken as well as its back leg and skin grafts would have been needed, they said they were unsure of any other internal damage until they did further investigation. The first question was as you would expect "are you insured ?" What i fail to understand is they have already found out about the injury's, internal being the life threatening ones yet they still asked if they could try and save the cat. Why it would not be able to live its life as a cat does due to the damage. So why not do the only think sensible and put it to sleep and end its suffering. I can guarantee the first things the vet would have done would have been to put the cat on painkillers and stabilise it allowing the owner to make an informed decision, the matter of insurance/money is you wouldn't want the vet to go through with the operation to fix the animal (chances are the injuries could have been fixed but it's impossible to tell without knowing more information) and then present you with a massive bill without you having said so and contrastingly you also wouldn't want the vet to put it down assuming the owner couldn't/wouldn't pay for it without actually having the owner say so. The "high cost" of vets is due to the expensive nature of the profession, drugs are expensive as is equipment, petrol and running the business as well as having to pay off 5 years of university. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 The "high cost" of vets is due to the expensive nature of the profession, drugs are expensive as is equipment, petrol and running the business as well as having to pay off 5 years of university. That is exactly my point, vets bills seem to be rising way above inflation and way above the true value of some treatments. I'm happy to pay for the expertise, training and running costs of a practice but I am not best pleased to be paying for the new technological advances that will allow a budgie have a liver transplant - I don't begrudge anyone who wants to do that, but everyone that goes through the doors of a vets will pay a share of that machine, not just the few that will use it. Obviously I'm joking about the budgie, but the general point is valid. It's the same in many industries, not least mine (photography), when I started you could buy the kit and not replace it for 10 or more years, now you have to replace computers and camera bodies every 1 or 2 years as they are quickly superseded by better models, meaning those costs are passed on to the customers. In the case of vets the push for more expensive treatments is probably partly due to increasing rates of pet insurance. I'm not having a go at vets, they are well trained professionals doing their jobs, I'm just moaning about the situation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I'm a vet student and what happens is you have to give the owner every option, unless the vet was trying to pressure her into paying for the operation then they were just doing their job. Some people would be very annoyed if a surgery option or treatment wasn't offered to them because the vet didn't think they could afford it or that it was a waste of money to give the animal that treatment. Chances are the vet doesn't own the practice so it doesn't make any difference to them if the expensive option is taken, and if the vets are advised to make extra work/ charge extra they would be struck off so fast their head would spin. Thanks Tom Oh please, you seem simple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbitraider1 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) Oh please, you seem simple The fact you have based that opinion on a few lines of text reveals far more about you than I. The simple fact of the matter is you instead of arguing or stating a valid point about vet's fee's and instead tried to make a personal remark makes me question your motivation of even posting? Edited January 13, 2014 by rabbitraider1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) That sounds very much like a public school boy response... Edited January 13, 2014 by wildfowler.250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbitraider1 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Thats more a bit of a ****** off response, I admit I did sound a bit simple but it's irrelevant to the thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 That is exactly my point, vets bills seem to be rising way above inflation and way above the true value of some treatments. I'm happy to pay for the expertise, training and running costs of a practice but I am not best pleased to be paying for the new technological advances that will allow a budgie have a liver transplant - I don't begrudge anyone who wants to do that, but everyone that goes through the doors of a vets will pay a share of that machine, not just the few that will use it. Obviously I'm joking about the budgie, but the general point is valid. It's the same in many industries, not least mine (photography), when I started you could buy the kit and not replace it for 10 or more years, now you have to replace computers and camera bodies every 1 or 2 years as they are quickly superseded by better models, meaning those costs are passed on to the customers. In the case of vets the push for more expensive treatments is probably partly due to increasing rates of pet insurance. I'm not having a go at vets, they are well trained professionals doing their jobs, I'm just moaning about the situation! Very valid points. Not to many years ago vet's worked out of the boot of their car or a small lock-up surgery with a nurse come receptionist. Now, to provide the service their customers have come to expect they have specialist buildings comprising of large reception areas with a receptionist, multiple consulting rooms, hi-tech operating theatres comparable to any NHS teaching hospital, lairage for a variety of animals and several nurses. All this has to be paid for by, as you say, their clients. Many people today seem to view their pets as they view a human, they want everything possible done to treat their pet and are prepared to spend whatever it takes. Much of this I suspect, fueled by the fact they are covered by insurance and to some degree by the fact that vet's are now able to offer treatments that only a few years ago were unheard of, thus creating a situation where the client feels emotionally pressured into doing the best for their pet. Perhaps when we have a sick/injured animal we should let economics rule our heads and weigh up the cost of treatment and prognosis against the animals monetary worth. I do this with my farm stock and dogs and it works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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