Should Scotland keep the pound?

[spanj]

Seeing as we're bringing Celtic countries into this debate I must say I agree

 

I also believe Wales should turn off the water supply to engerlandshire, or charge accordingly

That'd be OK Paul as long as the welsh pay us back for putting in the infrastructure

Oh aye, time to free up your holiday properties too

what and lose the only meaningful industry you have ?

[spanj]

Where is this anti-Englishness you all say is there? I live here and have yet to hear it. I am half English, my mother who is from Cheshire has been here since 1965, worked for the civil service dealing with a cross section of society and is yet to hear it.

 

Salmond is the only one making cheap political jibes.

 

What I can say is the racism seems to be far more the other way. I am not particularly fond of being called a parasite.....

by your own definition your only half a parasite

[welsh1]

That'd be OK Paul as long as the welsh pay us back for putting in the infrastructure

 

We will quite happily pay you back for your infrastructure.

 

Now let us chat about compensation for all the coal and other natural resources such as slate that you ripped out of our mountains to expand your empire and make you rich.

 

 

FYI I don't think we should have the mockery that is the welsh assembly.

[grrclark]

As i said, a minority that offer nothing more than ignorance, stupidity and bigotry.

[maxie]

I cannot help thinking that independence should be a matter of heart not head.If the people of Scotland want independence the fact they they might be better or worse off financially shouldn`t really come into it. If the people of Scotland truly wanted independence I would have thought they could have got it years ago one way or the other.

[islandgun]

I cannot help thinking that independence should be a matter of heart not head.If the people of Scotland want independence the fact they they might be better or worse off financially shouldn`t really come into it.

good point , thanks for input

[Blunderbuss]

I cannot help thinking that independence should be a matter of heart not head.If the people of Scotland want independence the fact they they might be better or worse off financially shouldn`t really come into it. If the people of Scotland truly wanted independence I would have thought they could have got it years ago one way or the other.

 

The heart versus the head argument is a powerful one. An astute observation I read somewhere was thus: Hypothetically, If you could promise the people of Eire that their economy would be massively boosted if they rejoined the union, or they could carry as they are, a bit poorer but masters of their own destiny, there's no doubt they'd choose the latter. The economic arguments are not the be all and end all that a lot of commentators make them out to be. If it came to it, I suspect a sizable number of Scots separatists would accept a certain amount of economic disadvantage if it came to it, as a small price to be free of the "auld enemy".

 

I find the whole thing very sad. I think a lot of the friction evidenced on this thread, has been whipped up by Salmond and the SNP over the last few years. As much as I despise him he's a crafty operator and he'd be rubbing his hands in glee seeing the slanging match on here. The truth is, we are all residents of the same small island in the North Sea, and have far more in common than we have which separates us.

[Gimlet]

 

The heart versus the head argument is a powerful one. An astute observation I read somewhere was thus: Hypothetically, If you could promise the people of Eire that their economy would be massively boosted if they rejoined the union, or they could carry as they are, a bit poorer but masters of their own destiny, there's no doubt they'd choose the latter. The economic arguments are not the be all and end all that a lot of commentators make them out to be. If it came to it, I suspect a sizable number of Scots separatists would accept a certain amount of economic disadvantage if it came to it, as a small price to be free of the "auld enemy".

 

I find the whole thing very sad. I think a lot of the friction evidenced on this thread, has been whipped up by Salmond and the SNP over the last few years. As much as I despise him he's a crafty operator and he'd be rubbing his hands in glee seeing the slanging match on here. The truth is, we are all residents of the same small island in the North Sea, and have far more in common than we have which separates us.

 

 

Well said that man.

[digger]

Welsh slate and coal ripped out of mountains? perlease. Paid for, miners paid and housed.

Edited February 15, 2014 by digger

[welsh1]

Welsh slate and coal ripped out of mountains? perlease. Paid for, miners paid and housed.

Paid low money for dangerous work and the coal sold for vast profit and sent all over the world to keep the empire going.

 

Houses were cheap and squalid and you paid most of your poor wage to the pit for rent, the rest was taken by the company stores.

 

I would suggest you read a bit of history about how hard it was for them when the empire was in full swing.

 

Mining communities lived in terrible conditions as did the metal works producing ore for the empire and the slate miners, to mention but a few.

[Nial]

Is it a half truth that English students have to pay tuition fees in Scottish universities but Scottish and EU students are accepted for free?

 

And Northern Irish and Welsh.

 

Nial.

[digger]

How much better would it have been for Wales if the coal and slate were still in the mountains

[Tim Kelly]

Paid low money for dangerous work and the coal sold for vast profit and sent all over the world to keep the empire going.

 

Houses were cheap and squalid and you paid most of your poor wage to the pit for rent, the rest was taken by the company stores.

 

I would suggest you read a bit of history about how hard it was for them when the empire was in full swing.

 

Mining communities lived in terrible conditions as did the metal works producing ore for the empire and the slate miners, to mention but a few.

 

 

Blimey, I hope you only buy products produced in ethical ways. The conditions people work in to produce your clothes, computer, virtually anything, are pretty poor compared to how we live.

[Gimlet]

We will quite happily pay you back for your infrastructure.

 

Now let us chat about compensation for all the coal and other natural resources such as slate that you ripped out of our mountains to expand your empire and make you rich.

 

 

FYI I don't think we should have the mockery that is the welsh assembly.

 

More heat than light here.

The Union of the crown is 307 years old. It predates the modern world and the last period of British imperialism. It wasn't "your" empire or "their" empire, it was ours. They were not "your" wars nor "their" wars, for better or worse they were ours.

You cannot take partisan ownership of portions of shared history nor pick and choose which parts of it are yours alone to be proud of or aggrieved by. They were our triumphs and our mistakes. No good is served by blaming the children for the sins of the fathers. Nor by judging the events of history by the standards of today. The past really was a foreign country; they really did do things differently there. None of us were alive then. We are not responsible and there's nothing we can do about it. Move on.

[Chris Bb]

More heat than light here.

The Union of the crown is 307 years old. It predates the modern world and the last period of British imperialism. It wasn't "your" empire or "their" empire, it was ours. They were not "your" wars nor "their" wars, for better or worse they were ours.

You cannot take partisan ownership of portions of shared history nor pick and choose which parts of it are yours alone to be proud of or aggrieved by. They were our triumphs and our mistakes. No good is served by blaming the children for the sins of the fathers. Nor by judging the events of history by the standards of today. The past really was a foreign country; they really did do things differently there. None of us were alive then. We are not responsible and there's nothing we can do about it. Move on.

Well said, sir. And that applies to much more than just the current discussion.

[CaptainBeaky]

 

More heat than light here.

The Union of the crown is 307 years old. It predates the modern world and the last period of British imperialism. It wasn't "your" empire or "their" empire, it was ours. They were not "your" wars nor "their" wars, for better or worse they were ours.

You cannot take partisan ownership of portions of shared history nor pick and choose which parts of it are yours alone to be proud of or aggrieved by. They were our triumphs and our mistakes. No good is served by blaming the children for the sins of the fathers. Nor by judging the events of history by the standards of today. The past really was a foreign country; they really did do things differently there. None of us were alive then. We are not responsible and there's nothing we can do about it. Move on.

Best post yet in this whole thread.

[secretagentmole]

 

More heat than light here.

The Union of the crown is 307 years old. It predates the modern world and the last period of British imperialism. It wasn't "your" empire or "their" empire, it was ours. They were not "your" wars nor "their" wars, for better or worse they were ours.

You cannot take partisan ownership of portions of shared history nor pick and choose which parts of it are yours alone to be proud of or aggrieved by. They were our triumphs and our mistakes. No good is served by blaming the children for the sins of the fathers. Nor by judging the events of history by the standards of today. The past really was a foreign country; they really did do things differently there. None of us were alive then. We are not responsible and there's nothing we can do about it. Move on.

Just one thing to point out, in the period shortly before and when the Union was established, the house of Stuart took over, ie we got Scottish heads of state!

Edited February 16, 2014 by secretagentmole

[welsh1]

Blimey, I hope you only buy products produced in ethical ways. The conditions people work in to produce your clothes, computer, virtually anything, are pretty poor compared to how we live.

Grow up I am not talking about the ethical way in which things were produced I was responding to a comment about how workers were nice and cosy in their free houses

 

 

 

[quote name="Gimlet" post="2446110" timestamp="1392540966"

 

More heat than light here.

The Union of the crown is 307 years old. It predates the modern world and the last period of British imperialism. It wasn't "your" empire or "their" empire, it was ours. They were not "your" wars nor "their" wars, for better or worse they were ours.

You cannot take partisan ownership of portions of shared history nor pick and choose which parts of it are yours alone to be proud of or aggrieved by. They were our triumphs and our mistakes. No good is served by blaming the children for the sins of the fathers. Nor by judging the events of history by the standards of today. The past really was a foreign country; they really did do things differently there. None of us were alive then. We are not responsible and there's nothing we can do about it. Move on.

 

Your post while good misses the point entirely.

All countries that have been part of a union with England,and then become independant have had significant monetary help, initially to set the country up and later to aid their economy,this still continues many years after independence.

 

You need to have a chat with your last two English prime ministers who tend not to agree with you and have been apologising for the sins of their fathers,and also judging the events of history by the standards of today.

 

Wales may be part of the union,but it was not one we entered into freely .history shows that Wales has time and again stood up to England only to be forcibly put in its place.

 

If you have ruled a country by force and oppression and that country gains independence there is a price to pay for your past oppression and theft of assets.

 

So please don't use the sins of our fathers, it doesn't wash,England is paying and apologising for its past.

 

As for independence,as I said I think the Welsh assembly is a joke,and I think we should all stay in the union as we are in a position where we all now benefit.

But the scary thing is if Wales had the vote I honestly think we would vote to leave the union and for no other reason than national fervour.

 

Any way we digress, back to the Scottish vote,I would like them to stay.

[kdubya]

Billy blowfish must be getting worried now, he is accusing ministers of being bullies and arrogant and full of bluster, not that he is any of those of course :lol:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26214193

[Paul223]

 

More heat than light here.

The Union of the crown is 307 years old. It predates the modern world and the last period of British imperialism. It wasn't "your" empire or "their" empire, it was ours. They were not "your" wars nor "their" wars, for better or worse they were ours.

You cannot take partisan ownership of portions of shared history nor pick and choose which parts of it are yours alone to be proud of or aggrieved by. They were our triumphs and our mistakes. No good is served by blaming the children for the sins of the fathers. Nor by judging the events of history by the standards of today. The past really was a foreign country; they really did do things differently there. None of us were alive then. We are not responsible and there's nothing we can do about it. Move on.

The problem with history is that it is always distorted, how many other countries should share the blame for your 'British' imperialism, I bet there are many that provided commodities that would fall into the same category after they were conquered

[Paul223]

 

Grow up I am not talking about the ethical way in which things were produced I was responding to a comment about how workers were nice and cosy in their free houses

 

 

 

 

 

Your post while good misses the point entirely.

All countries that have been part of a union with England,and then become independant have had significant monetary help, initially to set the country up and later to aid their economy,this still continues many years after independence.

 

You need to have a chat with your last two English prime ministers who tend not to agree with you and have been apologising for the sins of their fathers,and also judging the events of history by the standards of today.

 

Wales may be part of the union,but it was not one we entered into freely .history shows that Wales has time and again stood up to England only to be forcibly put in its place.

 

If you have ruled a country by force and oppression and that country gains independence there is a price to pay for your past oppression and theft of assets.

 

So please don't use the sins of our fathers, it doesn't wash,England is paying and apologising for its past.

 

As for independence,as I said I think the Welsh assembly is a joke,and I think we should all stay in the union as we are in a position where we all now benefit.

But the scary thing is if Wales had the vote I honestly think we would vote to leave the union and for no other reason than national fervour.

 

Any way we digress, back to the Scottish vote,I would like them to stay.

Well said and so very true

[chrisjh]

have the English Pound i don't think so how could they have the neck to ask if they want to clear off then let them, we have been way to soft steady decline since we stopped jus primae noctis clear example of give an inch take a mile

Edited February 16, 2014 by chrisjh

[islandgun]

I find the arguments of Gimlet and Blunderbus extremely powerful and thank them for that, I couldn't agree more,

My interest is not for myself but my children and grandchildren, Politicians come and go, will a no vote be regretted by the next generation and seen as a lost opportunity and this generations fault ?

Scotland is a pleasant place to live due in no small part by a union with the rest of Britain a shared fortune by a small island, should this union of hundreds of years be ended.

Would an independent Scotland lead to less ill feeling between Scotland and England as evidenced on this forum.

Should Scotland keep the pound, is this about more than money?

Cheers

[Gunman]

What I don't understand is why if the Scott's want independence do they want to remain members of the EU ? This will mean far more rules and regulations that ever ,or is it just so Mr Salmond can have some one else to blame as there will not be the "Westminster Government " to blame for all ills ?

Membership of The EU for a new member and that is what Scotland will be considered will have to have the Euro s it currency as a matter of course which in turn will mean that all budgetary plans will have to be approved by the EU ,in effect negating any independence the country will have gained .

Personal I feel if they leave the Union the they should forfeit any right to its currency .

[Gimlet]

 

Grow up I am not talking about the ethical way in which things were produced I was responding to a comment about how workers were nice and cosy in their free houses

 

 

 

 

 

Your post while good misses the point entirely.

All countries that have been part of a union with England,and then become independant have had significant monetary help, initially to set the country up and later to aid their economy,this still continues many years after independence.

 

You need to have a chat with your last two English prime ministers who tend not to agree with you and have been apologising for the sins of their fathers,and also judging the events of history by the standards of today.

 

Wales may be part of the union,but it was not one we entered into freely .history shows that Wales has time and again stood up to England only to be forcibly put in its place.

 

If you have ruled a country by force and oppression and that country gains independence there is a price to pay for your past oppression and theft of assets.

 

So please don't use the sins of our fathers, it doesn't wash,England is paying and apologising for its past.

 

As for independence,as I said I think the Welsh assembly is a joke,and I think we should all stay in the union as we are in a position where we all now benefit.

But the scary thing is if Wales had the vote I honestly think we would vote to leave the union and for no other reason than national fervour.

 

Any way we digress, back to the Scottish vote,I would like them to stay.

 

I take your points, particularly about prime ministerial apologies. But how far back do you go? Do we seek reparations from Norway and Denmark for the Vikings? Should we punish modern day Italians for the Roman empire?

The act of Union was in itself a form of reparation. What's our is yours etc. The events pre-act of union are not recent history. I believe we should not pass blame, guilt or grievance down the generations. It is so destructive. Looking back is not the way forward.