Should Scotland keep the pound?

[grrclark]

It is an emotive issue fraught with uncertainty. Will everyone's immovable assets be re priced into Scottish scroats? Will everyone move their liquid assets outside an independent Scotland?

 

It is a minefield indeed. We have a facility in Argentina and they have huge economic stability issues, by changing absolutely nothing we can go from having huge losses to being ridiculously profitable just due to currency fluctuation and inflation.

 

That is one of my very real worries for Scotland should we vote the wrong way, it introduces a whole load of instability. If we adopted the Euro we would have some very restrictive covenants placed upon us, if we opted for our own currency we would be prone to huge instability and in any respect Sterling would also be hurt due to the reasons you outlined too.

[Pheasant Plucker]

This is a great thread, but unfortunately there are few real pearls of wisdom amongst all the jibes, insults, comical spelling mistakes and howlers. (The best by far has been post no. 5 from Kent in which he discusses whether the Scots should be allowed to "keep stirling" (sic). Bit of a foregone conclusion that they should, given that Stirling is a Scottish town......)

 

But to be serious for a moment, the one thing that really baffles me is this - if (as so many learned Pigeon Watchers contend) Scotland is such a desolate place, populated by Irn Bru-swilling, benefits-grabbing parasites who are sucking the life-blood out of Mother England, why is there such a vociferous "no" lobby? Why are the three main political parties doing their damndest to maintain the Union? I can't believe that it comes from a sense of duty and charity towards the primitive aboriginals of the north.

 

I'd have thought that if Scotland were indeed such a burden, these parties would be more than glad to ease the road to separation, and Hell mend the Scots for their impertinent independent spirit.

 

If any of the people who have posted derogatory messages would like to come back and give me just one cogent reason why England hasn't

grabbed with both hands this golden opportunity to get rid of a nation of alleged losers I'll go to bed comforted and reassured that I haven't spent the last half hour reading the outpourings of quite a number of people who would be well advised to keep their ill-formed opinions to themselves..

I have been banging on about this point throughout this forum - if the Scots are a bunch of scrounging layabouts why would England wish to keep them? Oh ... and yes we would like to keep Stirling if that is OK! Edited February 12, 2014 by Pheasant Plucker

[grrclark]

This is a great thread, but unfortunately there are few real pearls of wisdom amongst all the jibes, insults, comical spelling mistakes and howlers. (The best by far has been post no. 5 from Kent in which he discusses whether the Scots should be allowed to "keep stirling" (sic). Bit of a foregone conclusion that they should, given that Stirling is a Scottish town......)

 

But to be serious for a moment, the one thing that really baffles me is this - if (as so many learned Pigeon Watchers contend) Scotland is such a desolate place, populated by Irn Bru-swilling, benefits-grabbing parasites who are sucking the life-blood out of Mother England, why is there such a vociferous "no" lobby? Why are the three main political parties doing their damndest to maintain the Union? I can't believe that it comes from a sense of duty and charity towards the primitive aboriginals of the north.

 

I'd have thought that if Scotland were indeed such a burden, these parties would be more than glad to ease the road to separation, and Hell mend the Scots for their impertinent independent spirit.

 

If any of the people who have posted derogatory messages would like to come back and give me just one cogent reason why England hasn't grabbed with both hands this golden opportunity to get rid of a nation of alleged losers I'll go to bed comforted and reassured that I haven't spent the last half hour reading the outpourings of quite a number of people who would be well advised to keep their ill-formed opinions to themselves..

 

Easy, the conspiracy theorists have this all sewn up. Labour need the Scottish vote to get into power in Westminster; the Liberals would be desperately un-liberal by casting us poor unfortunate beggars onto the scrap heap, besides they would let us all come onboard as immigrants afterwards to continue to sponge off the English welfare system; and the Conservatives want to keep us around just for the good fun sport of tyrannising the Scot's with mean spirited taxation and crushing our industrial heartlands B)

 

p.s. none of these are cogent reasons, but probably just as good as you might otherwise get !!!!

[Pheasant Plucker]

Easy, the conspiracy theorists have this all sewn up. Labour need the Scottish vote to get into power in Westminster; the Liberals would be desperately un-liberal by casting us poor unfortunate beggars onto the scrap heap, besides they would let us all come onboard as immigrants afterwards to continue to sponge off the English welfare system; and the Conservatives want to keep us around just for the good fun sport of tyrannising the Scot's with mean spirited taxation and crushing our industrial heartlands B)

 

p.s. none of these are cogent reasons, but probably just as good as you might otherwise get !!!!

In otherwords Westminster doesn't give a stuff about the Scottish people -and never have! To paraphrase a bit if **** scriptwriting in the movie Braveheart, when longshanks said "the problem with Scotland is its full of Scots".

 

If Scotland says YES, the United Kingdom will be effectively diminished and could possibly return to a serious recession.

[bruno22rf]

If we are waiting for Scotland to come up with a feasible repayment plan for its share of the Trillion+ UK national debt then we may be waiting for some considerable time.

[grrclark]

In otherwords Westminster doesn't give a stuff about the Scottish people -and never have! To paraphrase a bit if **** scriptwriting in the movie Braveheart, when longshanks said "the problem with Scotland is its full of Scots".

 

If Scotland says YES, the United Kingdom will be effectively diminished and could possibly return to a serious recession.

 

I was being flippant and sarcastic. Westminster gives a huge stuff about Scotland and it's contribution to the UK.

[grrclark]

If we are waiting for Scotland to come up with a feasible repayment plan for its share of the Trillion+ UK national debt then we may be waiting for some considerable time.

 

I expect that pro-rated it would take Scotland as long to pay it's share as it would take England to pay it's chunk. Despite all the rhetoric to suggest otherwise, there is very little difference between the level of contribution/consumption to/from the public purse between Scotland and England.

 

Of course if we had our own currency then we just convert our share of the debt to Scottish currency at the point of separation and just inflate our way out of it. (p.s. I am being sarcastic again)

[Gimlet]

 

 

 

But to be serious for a moment, the one thing that really baffles me is this - if (as so many learned Pigeon Watchers contend) Scotland is such a desolate place, populated by Irn Bru-swilling, benefits-grabbing parasites who are sucking the life-blood out of Mother England, why is there such a vociferous "no" lobby? Why are the three main political parties doing their damndest to maintain the Union? I can't believe that it comes from a sense of duty and charity towards the primitive aboriginals of the north.

 

 

 

Fear of change and fear of an altered demographic and a shifting power base.

Personally I'm all in favour of Scottish secession - I don't like the term independence. Scotland is not a dependency nor some colonial chattel. It is an equal partner in a political alliance which it entered voluntarily. Secession is the exercise of free will not the casting off of chains. Its the terms of that secession that is the issue for that effects everyone in the UK.

But those terms are not discussed. Scots are being asked to vote for an exit before the doorway has even been made while unionist politicians and commentators make unfounded predictions that such an alteration would bring about the collapse of the entire building. Both positions are disingenuous. There is something depressingly infantile about the way the whole issue is being handled. And no one seems to challenge the default assumption that an separate Scotland will be a single party socialist dependency of the EU. My God, what a choice. The sensible outcome would be not a yes or a no vote but one where no one voted at all.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Gimlet

[aldivalloch]

 

 

 

 

Fear of change and fear of an altered demographic and a shifting power base.

Personally I'm all in favour of Scottish secession - I don't like the term independence. Scotland is not a dependency nor some colonial chattel. It is an equal partner in a political alliance which it entered voluntarily. Secession is the exercise of free will not the casting off of chains. Its the terms of that secession that is the issue for that effects everyone in the UK.

But those terms are not discussed. Scots are being asked to vote for an exit before the doorway has even been made while unionist politicians and commentators make unfounded predictions that such an alteration would bring about the collapse of the entire building. Both positions are disingenuous. There is something depressingly infantile about the way the whole issue is being handled. And no one seems to challenge the default assumption that an separate Scotland will be a single party socialist dependency of the EU. My God, what a choice. The sensible outcome would be not a yes or a no vote but one where no one voted at all.

 

Thank you, sir! This is the most mature and reasoned comment so far.

 

Come on, folks! This is your "starter for ten" for a serious and measured debate.

[Blunderbuss]

If any of the people who have posted derogatory messages would like to come back and give me just one cogent reason why England hasn't grabbed with both hands this golden opportunity

I'll give you a reason , because we haven't been asked. You get the luxury of a referendum, we don't. Our politicans might be fawning all over you but if it went to a poll in in England, we'd cut you adrift in a heartbeat. That would not have been the case 5 or 10 years ago, but attitudes have hardened. I used to be a committed unionist and lived in Scotland for a couple of years in the 90s. I always believed the UK was a culturally and geographically diverse place and all all the better for it. greater than the sum of its parts. I But I've gradually been worn down by the constant bitching, sniping and anti English resentment that emanates from Scotland. In my simple view it comes to this. English people like the Scots and like the union. Too mamy Scots hate the English and want a divorce. Well that's the way it used to be , but guess what? We've come round to your way of thinking. I am proud to be British but sad that Britain as a country may not be around for much longer, destroyed from within. If that happens, those who bring it about should reap what they sow, total and utter separation

 

If the Referendum vote is no, then fine. If it is yes, then can anyone give me a good reason why England's relationship with an independent Scotland should be any different to our relationship with Yemen, St Lucia or some other random country?

 

To me its all or nothing. Stick with us and enjoy the union that has worked so well for 300 years, or divorce us completely. No devo max flim flam. No having your cake and eating it with some halfway fudge, no pound, no Queen as head of state. If that is what you want, enjoy your nuclear free, socialist utopia and good luck with keeping hold of your guns.

 

Sorry at the rant, believe or not I do like the Scots and deep down want the union to stay, but enough is enough.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Blunderbuss

[Blunderbuss]

.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Blunderbuss

[955i]

In my opinion if they vote no and stay part of the UK the Scottish assembly should go they should start paying for prescriptions and university education too and we should all be treated the same

Geordie

They should already be made to do that, never mind how the vote goes!!

[felly100]

Why are the three main political parties doing their damndest to maintain the Union? I can't believe that it comes from a sense of duty and charity towards the primitive aboriginals of the north.

 

I'd have thought that if Scotland were indeed such a burden, these parties would be more than glad to ease the road to separation, and Hell mend the Scots for their impertinent independent spirit.

..

I think it boils down to this,which Westminster politicians in their right minds,want to go down in history as having lost 34% of our land mass.

[Tim Kelly]

I don't imagine there are many people who want to see Scotland go. What causes the attitudes of many on this thread, me included, is the mealy mouthed whinging toads like Salmond come out with and the general feeling of ungrateful indignation. Supporting anyone but England and booing the English rugby team don't exactly help with neighborly love, but they are trivial in the big scheme of things. I'm surprised Scots want DC to come up and tell them why they should stay. Surely they know the answer to that already and have benefited from being a part of the union for a long time. Quite what Salmond and his misguided cronies have to offer, other than their own craving for power and influence, is hard to imagine. I really struggle to see how leaving the union would benefit Scotland in any way.

[Laird Lugton]

Where is this anti-Englishness you all say is there? I live here and have yet to hear it. I am half English, my mother who is from Cheshire has been here since 1965, worked for the civil service dealing with a cross section of society and is yet to hear it.

 

Salmond is the only one making cheap political jibes.

 

What I can say is the racism seems to be far more the other way. I am not particularly fond of being called a parasite.....

Edited February 13, 2014 by Laird Lugton

[AVB]

From what I have read and heard it seems that Scottish voters either

 

1) believe that they will be better off independant

2) would prefer to stay within 'The Union' but believe that they can be successful as an independant state

 

And Englishmen/women (politicians aside) believe that we would be better of without Scotland.

 

The key here is 'belief'. They are no hard facts because of the complexity of it.

 

But Based upon this strong belief all around seems to be no downside of independence for Scotland. I'm sure you'll make a go of it.

 

On the subject of politicians I was speaking to some Conservative MP's and an ex cabinet minister at the weekend. They all admitted that the reason that the Conservatives appear so passionate about staying together is simply that they don't want to be seen as the party who presided over the split. Financially they are all for it and it would also mean the end of the Labour party.

[henry d]

Lol. A Scottish pedant, how unusual.

Wrong again, I am English.

[Tim Kelly]

Wrong again, I am English.

 

 

Sounds like you've been infected by living there...

[norfolk dumpling]

Academic anyway as it won't happen - those with a few brain cells ie not soaked in alcohol - realise its a mistake. Recent survey showed that those with money ie those who pay the majority of tax revenues are going to leave and thus bankrupt Scotland in first 2/3 years. Unfortunately they want to go south so build that little wall a few brick higher.

[Paul223]

This is a great thread, but unfortunately there are few real pearls of wisdom amongst all the jibes, insults, comical spelling mistakes and howlers. (The best by far has been post no. 5 from Kent in which he discusses whether the Scots should be allowed to "keep stirling" (sic). Bit of a foregone conclusion that they should, given that Stirling is a Scottish town......)

 

But to be serious for a moment, the one thing that really baffles me is this - if (as so many learned Pigeon Watchers contend) Scotland is such a desolate place, populated by Irn Bru-swilling, benefits-grabbing parasites who are sucking the life-blood out of Mother England, why is there such a vociferous "no" lobby? Why are the three main political parties doing their damndest to maintain the Union? I can't believe that it comes from a sense of duty and charity towards the primitive aboriginals of the north.

 

I'd have thought that if Scotland were indeed such a burden, these parties would be more than glad to ease the road to separation, and Hell mend the Scots for their impertinent independent spirit.

 

If any of the people who have posted derogatory messages would like to come back and give me just one cogent reason why England hasn't grabbed with both hands this golden opportunity to get rid of a nation of alleged losers I'll go to bed comforted and reassured that I haven't spent the last half hour reading the outpourings of quite a number of people who would be well advised to keep their ill-formed opinions to themselves..

Without reading through the rest of the topic and realising it may have been covered already, my answer would be,

it's not the right time

and

little England doesn't actually want to go it alone

 

If the books were looking as good as they were in the late nineties I think things would be different, but also I think in that situation Alex S would not be asking to go it alone either!

 

Ps what bugs me is the little engerlandshire attitude of 'we financially support you all, please pay homage here', it's gets my goat and I bite in case you haven't all noticed ha!

Edited February 13, 2014 by Paul223

[Lampwick]

From what I have read and heard it seems that Scottish voters either

1) believe that they will be better off independant

2) would prefer to stay within 'The Union' but believe that they can be successful as an independant state

And Englishmen/women (politicians aside) believe that we would be better of without Scotland.

The key here is 'belief'. They are no hard facts because of the complexity of it.

But Based upon this strong belief all around seems to be no downside of independence for Scotland. I'm sure you'll make a go of it.

On the subject of politicians I was speaking to some Conservative MP's and an ex cabinet minister at the weekend. They all admitted that the reason that the Conservatives appear so passionate about staying together is simply that they don't want to be seen as the party who presided over the split. Financially they are all for it and it would also mean the end of the Labour party.

That's it then, England and Scotland will be better off with a Yes vote! It's a no brainer!!!!! Vote YES!

 

Then once that's all over the rest of the hard done by disallusioned Union can have a go!!

[Kes]

After a long period believing the Union is better for all, I think the scots should do it. It will never go away and we will never be 'friends' until those who profess alienation are proved wrong economically and the renegotiation for joining a new union will be bloody.

The most quintessential symbol of England is the pound. I cant beieve the Scots want to keep it but then again this is about selfish independence - the best of everything. Absolute no to the pound for Scotland - why should an independent Scotland want support from the English, so despised by many of the independence hard liners?

Scotland the brave - you arent kidding.

[Laird Lugton]

On the subject of politicians I was speaking to some Conservative MP's and an ex cabinet minister at the weekend. They all admitted that the reason that the Conservatives appear so passionate about staying together is simply that they don't want to be seen as the party who presided over the split. Financially they are all for it and it would also mean the end of the Labour party.

Excellent AVB, just goes to show the MP's need to do slightly more research.....

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/11/why-scottish-independence-wouldnt-mean-permanent-majority-tories

 

"On no occasion since 1945 would independence have changed the identity of the winning party and on only two occasions would it have converted a Labour majority into a hung parliament (1964 and October 1974). Without Scotland, Labour would still have won in 1945 (with a majority of 146, down from 143), in 1966 (77, down from 98), in 1997 (139, down from 179), in 2001 (129, down from 167) and in 2005 (43, down from 66)."

 

"But unless Cameron's party is able to dramatically improve its performance in the north and the midlands (where it holds just 20 of the 124 urban seats), Scottish independence would almost certainly lead to further hung parliaments (or small majorities for either party) , rather than the permanent majority that some Tories imagine."

[Laird Lugton]

After a long period believing the Union is better for all, I think the scots should do it. It will never go away and we will never be 'friends' until those who profess alienation are proved wrong economically and the renegotiation for joining a new union will be bloody.

The most quintessential symbol of England is the pound. I cant beieve the Scots want to keep it but then again this is about selfish independence - the best of everything. Absolute no to the pound for Scotland - why should an independent Scotland want support from the English, so despised by many of the independence hard liners?

Scotland the brave - you arent kidding.

But Kes those independence hard liners are a small majority, 57% want to keep the union with something like 10% un-decided.

[Gimlet]

The parasite/scrounger/we-support-you-all business is a legacy of the invidious Barnett formula which was always a back-of-a-fag-packet settlement, if that - some claim the figure was plucked out of the air. Either way it has never been properly audited and certainly no one is proposing to do so now.

Even taking into account Scotland's greater contribution per capita to the public purse through oil revenues, Scottish people still receive a more generous public spending allocation per person than the rest of the UK. My understanding has always been that this differential was intended to reflect not North Sea oil but the fact that Scotland has the lowest population density in the UK - one tenth that of England - and so public services cost more to deliver. That's fair enough; but the fact is no accurate figure has ever been calculated because politicians are too squeamish to tackle the issue and the Barnett formula was and remains a thorn in the side of relations between Scotland and the rest of the UK. It has encouraged a vague, nonspecific sense of entitlement in some Scots and low-level background resentment in some English people which has settled into the fabric of our respective societies like a bad smell. Its astonishing that even now on the eve of a dissolution referendum no one is prepared to grasp the nettle and put real figures on the table. Both sides talk in generalities and ifs and maybes like bickering children. One way or the other we are all going to be living in a different kind of country soon. This is not an auspicious start.