OJW Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I've seen offers of permission advertised on various Facebook groups and forums, with permission scarce for many, such an offer is nearly irresistible, however how do you trust that the person offering the shooting, has the right to do so? The onus is, and rightly so, on the shooter to provide proof of his SGC and insurance, but what protects you from say being the victim of someone claiming they have the right to offer you some shooting when they don’t, or worse someone literally setting you up? Asking them to pull out deeds to the land seems a bit extreme. Is the answer just to ask to see their own permission form? The best I have been able to do is research the individuals online presence, i.e they seem well known and have made multiple posts over the years. Companies offering shooting have a reputation to protect and are easily researchable. If the person didn’t have the right or was some mad anti who set you up in a field then rang the police, saying "I met him online, he told me I could shoot here", in hindsight, leaves you rather exposed. While this may seem far fetched as the VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE are honest and simply trying to be nice, my question is how do you protect yourself when taking up an offer of shooting from someone you don’t know, and isn’t the principal land owner? I haven’t taken anyone up on an offer yet but would appreciate any advice regarding this. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim85 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 If concerned then check the paper work mate. I think you will be able to tell when with the person on how they are acting etc. IE staying out of site of the farm house / activity going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I assume the offers involve payment , if so it wouldn't be impolite to ask for some proof of authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJW Posted February 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 No free. And not shooting with the person, but on their permission or on land "they look after". Sometimes the fields may not be near a farm house, they may be fairly remote so checking how they are behaving may not help if not in view of the farm house. I am not a paranoid person, the only reason I am asking these questions now is because I know that otherwise these questions would creep up on me when i'm sitting alone in the hide without any real proof of permission. They may also be unwilling to give you written permission for that day incase you reproduce the paperwork with their signature, instead preferring you to phone them if anything comes up. Thanks for your responses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 While I can understand your concern to a degree, I think you're being a little paranoid. I have permission to shoot on several farms, but I have no written permission except on one. I have never asked anyone for written permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I would raise Motty's "little paranoid" to VERY paranoid! If you are unhappy, then don't accept permission from this person. I too only have written permission from one Farmer, everything else is by verbal agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Well I think its a fair point. When I was a bit more than a youth and trusted everyone, I responded to an ad, two of us turned up. Were given a map of the farm by the chap who had the permission (Allegedly, and he wasn't the farmer). We paid the fee and were left to get on with. It occurred to me much later on that it could have been a scam. I always get written permission. It covers my butt if there's a query from anyone and my guests are more than welcome to see it. For my firearms application, my Feo wanted to see written permissions, so I'm glad I get them done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I know of someone collecting the day ticket money for a group of fishermen and legging it . They found out off the bailif lol . I always want I'd of bailiffs so is it worth the hassle of being arrested for poaching ? Nope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) I think this is a real and valid concern. Appearances can be deceptive and, despite anyone's eagerness to go shooting with a potential lifelong shooting friend, ignorance is not a defence at law, and armed trespass carries a 5 year stay at Her Majesty's pleasure. Why not be a little careful - it could have happened to me. Edit SP Edited February 28, 2014 by Kes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJW Posted February 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Thank you Turbo and team tractor. To those of you calling me paranoid, I take your point; and predicted I would come across that way, as such I was apprehensive of posting this topic. For the majority of people, a mans word is enough, and chances are you will never have any problems. But regardless of your own positive experiences, it doesn't mean a potential problem doesn't exist. Risking my SCG is one thing, but my career would at such a risk, if a problem arose, and as I said, all I could say is: "But I had permission of a guy I met on the internet, he isn't the land owner or farmer, I hadn't met him before and he isn't shooting with me now, but give him a ring" For many this wouldn't even be an issue, but for others, perhaps, it could be and therefore I think its worth discussing in the hope that other guns will give their advice on how and if they have covered their own backs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJW Posted February 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Thanks Kes, sorry you posted as I was replying so I didn't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Thanks Kes, sorry you posted as I was replying so I didn't see it. NP what you have raised will come to many shooters - how they handle it will vary enormously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 It makes a massive difference if you actually know your farmers and visit them at home! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Thank you Turbo and team tractor. To those of you calling me paranoid, I take your point; and predicted I would come across that way, as such I was apprehensive of posting this topic. For the majority of people, a mans word is enough, and chances are you will never have any problems. But regardless of your own positive experiences, it doesn't mean a potential problem doesn't exist. Risking my SCG is one thing, but my career would at such a risk, if a problem arose, and as I said, all I could say is: "But I had permission of a guy I met on the internet, he isn't the land owner or farmer, I hadn't met him before and he isn't shooting with me now, but give him a ring" For many this wouldn't even be an issue, but for others, perhaps, it could be and therefore I think its worth discussing in the hope that other guns will give their advice on how and if they have covered their own backs. Always thought exactly the same about offers from unknown people ! Personally I just wouldn`t consider it unless from an established guide. No doubt the vast majority are genuine straight ahead people,but it`s just not how I would want to go about it. I think your concerns are most valid ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I can understand the concerns of the OP and in reply I would be inclined to say "first and foremost follow your gut instincts" - If something doesn't feel quite right then don't get involved! There is another thing that I would be equally if not even more concerned about though with a shooting permission advertised free over the Internet - Have any other shooters have been given permission on this land? If there are "a few" that is there anything alive left on this land for you to shoot? And even more worrying is the safety side of things - As and when you turn up to shoot do you know if there are any other shooters on the land at the same time and if so how many? i.e. Are you going to turn round the corner of a hedge and find yourself faced with bits oflead flying around in all directions? (I'm not saying that this would be the case but it is something that I (personally) would be very cautious of and a little concerned about) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I can understand the concerns of the OP and in reply I would be inclined to say "first and foremost follow your gut instincts" - If something doesn't feel quite right then don't get involved! There is another thing that I would be equally if not even more concerned about though with a shooting permission advertised free over the Internet - Have any other shooters have been given permission on this land? If there are "a few" that is there anything alive left on this land for you to shoot? And even more worrying is the safety side of things - As and when you turn up to shoot do you know if there are any other shooters on the land at the same time and if so how many? i.e. Are you going to turn round the corner of a hedge and find yourself faced with bits oflead flying around in all directions? (I'm not saying that this would be the case but it is something that I (personally) would be very cautious of and a little concerned about) I was given permission by the farm manager the once to shoot pigeons but he never logged me down and the owner let another person shoot the same day :( . I was sat in my hide with a mate when we were hit by a 12g in our backs :( I've never been so scared . The guy rolled up and said sorry while he was shaking and white as a ghost . We've become good friends since Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I was given permission by the farm manager the once to shoot pigeons but he never logged me down and the owner let another person shoot the same day :( . I was sat in my hide with a mate when we were hit by a 12g in our backs :( I've never been so scared . The guy rolled up and said sorry while he was shaking and white as a ghost . We've become good friends since This really is a typical example of how easy it is for a shooting accident to happen in exactly the same way that I was suggesting. And of course once an accident has happened it can't be "unhappened" and it really does highlight the problems associated with a "shared permission" if one shooter doesn't know when or where the other shooter(s) are on the permission! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitchrat Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 No free. And not shooting with the person, but on their permission or on land "they look after". Sometimes the fields may not be near a farm house, they may be fairly remote so checking how they are behaving may not help if not in view of the farm house. I am not a paranoid person, the only reason I am asking these questions now is because I know that otherwise these questions would creep up on me when i'm sitting alone in the hide without any real proof of permission. They may also be unwilling to give you written permission for that day incase you reproduce the paperwork with their signature, instead preferring you to phone them if anything comes up. Thanks for your responses No, I don't think you are paranoid. I once shot in a group, led by a plausable chap, who, for a small fee (to cover costs of reccys etc) would put you on some good shooting. Later, we found out that some of the land, he didn't have permission on at all. A conflict can arise when a tenant farmer wants pigeons off but the landowner has sold the sporting rights to a pheasant syndicate. It can be a minefield, so you are right to be careful, armed tresspass is a serious offence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerSim Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) It makes a massive difference if you actually know your farmers and visit them at home! The few folk that have permission on my land, have all been in our house, met Mrs Sim and the family. If you haven't had a similar experience, then... as Frenchie says.. I can understand the concerns of the OP and in reply I would be inclined to say "first and foremost follow your gut instincts" - If something doesn't feel quite right then don't get involved! Your instincts are your friend..if it doesn't sit right, walk away, calmly and quietly. In the modern world, I would be very dubious of not having written permission - its not worth it. Edited March 1, 2014 by FarmerSim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 This really is a typical example of how easy it is for a shooting accident to happen in exactly the same way that I was suggesting. And of course once an accident has happened it can't be "unhappened" and it really does highlight the problems associated with a "shared permission" if one shooter doesn't know when or where the other shooter(s) are on the permission!And what constitutes unsafe shooting by the sound of it, could have been trespassers after a bit of afternoon delight in the bushes or kids making dens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I have in the past felt uneasy about a permission or two, guess what I don't go. Strange as it might seem some landowners are very free with giving consent (even if they have also sold the shooting rights) take care. I only use written permissions at renewals they serve no other purpose to me and many landowners fear some liability through issuing you them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elby Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 If you print off the facebook offer of shooting and any messages between you and the person making the offer then that will cover you. I wouldn't show a stranger my letter of permission or the lease to the land because that will show who the land owner is and maybe they could get approached directly for shooting behind my back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I remember the once I went with my mates dad ferreting. All was great until he said to duck down :( and from that moment on I've never been with him in over 20+ years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 This really is a typical example of how easy it is for a shooting accident to happen in exactly the same way that I was suggesting. And of course once an accident has happened it can't be "unhappened" and it really does highlight the problems associated with a "shared permission" if one shooter doesn't know when or where the other shooter(s) are on the permission! It shouldn't matter how many people have permission to shoot a farm, no-one should be getting peppered with lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 It shouldn't matter how many people have permission to shoot a farm, no-one should be getting peppered with lead. Normally I'd kick off over dangerous shooting but I was that shocked and shuck up I couldn't say anything. The annoying thing is the farmer manager had dropped me off in the spot and said you'll be ok here . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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