bobshooting Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 Will be a shame to close this thread so please keep the personal insults out of it As a non fowler I have followed this thread with interest, I thought we were all shooters together but it seems that may not be the case You've been warned gentlemen, shaun is right, it would be a shame to close this thread. I've been guilty of immoderate words on this subject myself, which I regret, so I can speak from a position of flagrant hypocrisy. I've no time for Kent, or their ideas, although if things keep going the way they are in Norfolk I might have to apply to them myself, there's hypocrisy rearing it's ugly head again. However,it has to be said, DNT does come on here and tell us what he can, if not all he could and I for one want to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNT Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 Just to try and calm things down. "We are fully aware of the legalities of holding a Right to wildfowling on CL65 and following this acquisition will never issue more than a single permit per day. Which means that on the great majority of occasions no member of the KWCA will be on the marsh. Hopefully that will allay the fears being expressed. We may in time acquire additional Rights, which will of course alter our entitlement" In answer to Terry P's comments, I'm afraid we don't take that view at all. KWCA is a fully inclusive club, the difference between us and many other clubs is in our business like approach. When we decide to move in certain directions we plan and execute, hopefully having prepared the ground first. There are many reasons why we will choose WSF to make purchase's and hold leases in the future, but being underhand isn't one of them. I stated earlier that it is not a secret that WSF although a company in its own right was set up as the conservation arm of KWCA. On that basis Terry I can see no reason why they should not enter into any business transaction like any other company or individual. If anyone thinks different, that's your prerogative but I remind you all of my post concerning the list of Common Rights Holders and their locations around the UK earlier. Once again I also remind you all that we were approached as we are constantly and offered the purchase which complemented our lease at Thornham. To the best of my knowledge no local club or individual was contacted ( I confess I don't know that for certain), but after reading some posts and seeing the way some of you seem to be turning on each other instead of working for the future of the sport, I'm not surprised. Feelings run high when we are attacked personally, but I ask you all again to stop the bickering, identify the real enemy, and it's not us no matter what you think. Then work with us to safeguard this wonderful sport for us and the generations to come to the best of your ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 I think we have all worked out what KWCA's vision for the future of our sport is ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 Again as a non fowler, What does a 1/4 share actually buy you as opposed to a full/half share member? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry P Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 As a hard core wildfowlers of 25 years I have about as much idea as you do Shaun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttfjlc Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 I'd be interested to see if some people's fears become true and kent buy/lease more and more land if they would offer some sort of part membership, this would be because I wouldn't want to pay a higher fee when I have no intention of travelling to the south east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 (edited) . Edited August 16, 2014 by anser2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNT Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 I think we have all worked out what KWCA's vision for the future of our sport is ! I think we have all worked out what KWCA's vision for the future of our sport is ! Regrettably I don't believe you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttfjlc Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 . I presume by your response anser2 I should explain a bit more. If/when kent purchase/lease land near to you would you prefer to pay the full fee and have access to areas you will never go to or pay a smaller fee to only shoot a certain area? Forgive me I'm a Pisces so think a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNT Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 I'd be interested to see if some people's fears become true and kent buy/lease more and more land if they would offer some sort of part membership, this would be because I wouldn't want to pay a higher fee when I have no intention of travelling to the south east. I'm afraid our rules don't allow for any kind of discounted membership except for our Country Package which gives 6 days shooting for £45. Unfortunately it is only available for people living way outside any of our existing shooting and I fear Lincolnshire would not qualify. We have members here who only shoot one marsh near to them and still pay Full Membership. Don't forget our membership of £ 242 includes BASC which can be refunded direct from BASC if you already have cover with another club making the actual fee under these circumstances £183. Whilst a considerable sum, we would consider this a very reasonable figure even if you shot only one area all season. In this part of the world people pay over £100 for a days pigeon shooting with no guarantees. On that basis we would expect people to have had value for money with the opportunity to shoot that they would get with our system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttfjlc Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 I'm afraid our rules don't allow for any kind of discounted membership except for our Country Package which gives 6 days shooting for £45. Unfortunately it is only available for people living way outside any of our existing shooting and I fear Lincolnshire would not qualify. We have members here who only shoot one marsh near to them and still pay Full Membership. Don't forget our membership of £ 242 includes BASC which can be refunded direct from BASC if you already have cover with another club making the actual fee under these circumstances £183. Whilst a considerable sum, we would consider this a very reasonable figure even if you shot only one area all season. In this part of the world people pay over £100 for a days pigeon shooting with no guarantees. On that basis we would expect people to have had value for money with the opportunity to shoot that they would get with our system. Thankyou DNT at least you could see what I was getting at, I suppose if you have to pay the full fee it's down to the individual to make the most of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNT Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Thankyou DNT at least you could see what I was getting at, I suppose if you have to pay the full fee it's down to the individual to make the most of it. Absolutely, and there's plenty of opportunity throughout the season, with more to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I've been reading this thread for some time now, and must confess mild confusion as I'm unfamiliar with 'proper' fowling and the way the system works. Am I right in thinking that suitable land is scarce and at a premium hence the infighting? Infighting aside, after someone pays their fee ( membership or otherwise ) do they just roll up to their chosen spot on any given time on any given date? If so, what happens if they get there and their favourite spot is already occupied? Is there enough land to go round to ensure that everyone gets their place of choice, whenever they choose, or is there some kind of rota? Is there any land which is common for all and free to shoot? Is this thread about one group land grabbing for the benefit of all, or for the benefit of that one group and its members? If the latter, then am I right in assuming those who wish to shoot that land must now join that group? Does it matter if one group buys all the land so long as no one is excluded, or is it that people who already shoot on that land already do so for free but will now be charged for doing so? We're all paying one way or another to shoot, aren't we? Doesn't BASC, purely as an example and with the money raised partly through membership fees etc, buy wild fowling land and then lease it back to shooters, at a profit? Or does it not? I genuinely don't know, but it would seem illogical if true, for a group not to make a profit. Or is the profit in owning the land itself? Is this what Kent are doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 In a nut shell its basically one club land grabbing for themselves at the expense of others , yes you could join the club and keep shooting but at a greatly inflated price . For them the land is brought to generate profit ,why else be interested in land 100s of miles form their own area ? they may say its for the benefit of thier members but in reality how many are going to travel 100s of miles for a flight ? a few diehards maybe but thats all , they will recouporate thier funds by charging local shooters more to shoot their local marshes , and happily put some historic clubs out of business by doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNT Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I've been reading this thread for some time now, and must confess mild confusion as I'm unfamiliar with 'proper' fowling and the way the system works. Am I right in thinking that suitable land is scarce and at a premium hence the infighting? Infighting aside, after someone pays their fee ( membership or otherwise ) do they just roll up to their chosen spot on any given time on any given date? If so, what happens if they get there and their favourite spot is already occupied? Is there enough land to go round to ensure that everyone gets their place of choice, whenever they choose, or is there some kind of rota? Is there any land which is common for all and free to shoot? Is this thread about one group land grabbing for the benefit of all, or for the benefit of that one group and its members? If the latter, then am I right in assuming those who wish to shoot that land must now join that group? Does it matter if one group buys all the land so long as no one is excluded, or is it that people who already shoot on that land already do so for free but will now be charged for doing so? We're all paying one way or another to shoot, aren't we? Doesn't BASC, purely as an example and with the money raised partly through membership fees etc, buy wild fowling land and then lease it back to shooters, at a profit? Or does it not? I genuinely don't know, but it would seem illogical if true, for a group not to make a profit. Or is the profit in owning the land itself? Is this what Kent are doing? Hi Scully, not withstanding Fenboys comments our system is very simple. You pay your membership, you then receive a book with all of the shooting areas listed, each area will tell you if it can be shot every day, 7 days in 14, 1 in 14, or 6 in 21 to quote some of our existing arrangements. It will also tell you how many guns can be on that area on any given shooting/open day. You then book yourself a permit by either contacting the permit officer for that area and arranging to collect or have the permit posted or alternatively most of our areas are now online and you can book a permit and print it off in the comfort of home. Depending on the size and sensitivity of the area some permits last the day whilst others last for a month, allowing you to go at a moments notice. These areas are obviously very large and are able to withstand more shooting pressure, even so you may find your the only fowler on the marsh (particularly weekdays). I know I keep banging on about inclusiveness, but that is the ethos behind our strategy. We aim to make shooting as readily available to has many people who want to take part as possible. We find ourselves being blamed for just about everything that people have to gripe about. The truth is there for all to see we obtain land by purchase or lease, we enter into deals with other clubs where we share the cost and the shooting and will continue to do so where possible. What we won't do is jump into bed with the real enemy unless every other avenue is exhausted and we won't enter into any deal with landowner or club that does not offer inclusive access and transparency to the members. We are accused of taking profits at any cost including watching other clubs fall by the wayside. Firstly I challenge anybody to say where we have taken shooting away from another club that had not already been lost. Secondly, of course we attempt to make a profit from any available source, how else would we continue to grow and offer more shooting to more and more members. The trouble with many shooters is it's a case of I'm alright and to hell with everybody who isn't in our exclusive group. Well I've said before that's fine if your a private syndicate with a watertight lease or private ownership, but please don't bleat on about what you do for the sport whilst masquerading as a club in the true sense of the word when in fact only the selected few are in and others can wait for ever to get a chance and mates of mates jump queues. One thing KWCA are really proud of is the fact that you can join KWCA today and you have as much right and chance of shooting the best thought of areas as the Chairman or any other member from day one. Finally there are many who say we inflate prices and make large charges, well if anybody really believes that our fees are too much to pay, particularly if you have no other shooting available, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee. Take a look at anything you can do related to shooting or any other hobby and activity that requires you to be in a private area of land or even a theme park and examine the cost. For those of you who have had or still have ridiculously low rents, I say good luck to you, but it won't last forever. So prepare yourself for that day, and if you are able to do it alone, great. If not be prepared to work with others who may be able to make the difference between complete loss and retention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 (edited) Quote "For those of you who have had or still have ridiculously low rents, I say good luck to you, but it won't last forever" You might be right , but the day comes a lot closer when your club pays hugely inflated prices. You have offered £10,000 a season for one of your Norfolk shooting marshes. At the moment I pay with a couple of friends ( a marsh that had no shooting tennent before a couple of friends took it on and later asked me to join them. ) £500 for a marsh of about the same size that holds at times 2-10,000 thousand pinks and has good wigeon shooting. And when you say "So prepare yourself for that day" The only cloud that brings that day closer is Kent WA. Tell me something DNT why do you with to expand your shooting across Eastern England. Could it because you are running out of shooting areas for your own members and looking to expand your empire at the cost of others. One other thing make it clear is your wide spaces fund is for conservation or to rase money for shooting grounds? Both are good aims , but do the people who donate know where the money is going? http://www.wildspacesfund.org.uk/index.htm Brancaster Marsh is a NNR \ SSSI \ SPA and so on , so there woud be no point in the Widespaces fund buying into it for conservation purposes because Natural England already manage conservation issues on the site. So presumably you have bought into it for the shooting rights which is already held by common righs holders via the local wildfowling clubs. If this is so then you should be clear to members of the public who donate that the funds they give will be used for shooting .Not to do so boarders on fraud as there is no mention of the donations being used for shooting on the website. Edited August 17, 2014 by anser2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I presume by your response anser2 I should explain a bit more. If/when kent purchase/lease land near to you would you prefer to pay the full fee and have access to areas you will never go to or pay a smaller fee to only shoot a certain area? Forgive me I'm a Pisces so think a lot I would not join Kent WA because of there questionable ethics which run contary to my ideals. Supporting them would only force other clubs to take the same course of action. And that would lead wildfowling into a hell of a mess with dog eat dog. Contary to the very spirit of the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNT Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Again as a non fowler, What does a 1/4 share actually buy you as opposed to a full/half share member? Rights can be sub-divided up to 4 times. That is based on the understanding that the number of sub-divided Rights holders may take no more in aggregate from the Common than a single Rights owner would do. In the case of the KWCA we will be issuing no more than one permit on any one day, and will be liasing with the other Rights holders (the other 3/4) to ensure that the aggregate take is proportionate. In practice this means that on most days there will be no KWCA member on the marsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Rights can be sub-divided up to 4 times. That is based on the understanding that the number of sub-divided Rights holders may take no more in aggregate from the Common than a single Rights owner would do. In the case of the KWCA we will be issuing no more than one permit on any one day, and will be liasing with the other Rights holders (the other 3/4) to ensure that the aggregate take is proportionate. In practice this means that on most days there will be no KWCA member on the marsh. Then why take up the 1/4 share then , which leads back to my previous argument about taking up shooting in areas where your members are unlikley to travel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNT Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Quote "For those of you who have had or still have ridiculously low rents, I say good luck to you, but it won't last forever" You might be right , but the day comes a lot closer when your club pays hugely inflated prices. You have offered £10,000 a season for one of your Norfolk shooting marshes. At the moment I pay with a couple of friends ( a marsh that had no shooting tennent before a couple of friends took it on and later asked me to join them. ) £500 for a marsh of about the same size that holds at times 2-10,000 thousand pinks and has good wigeon shooting. And when you say "So prepare yourself for that day" The only cloud that brings that day closer is Kent WA. Tell me something DNT why do you with to expand your shooting across Eastern England. Could it because you are running out of shooting areas for your own members and looking to expand your empire at the cost of others. It seems Anser2 we are so far apart in our views for the future of the sport and who can and can't take part in it I can see no reason to continue the debate. However for the record WSF is a Company in its own right, it is also a registered Charity and has had to meet and will continue to meet the very stringent rules laid down by the Charity Commission. WSF have not bought solely shooting rights, they have bought a 1/4 share in a Common Right which also happens as apart of that right to include the taking of Wildfowl. You have obviously looked at the website and I trust you can see where we are coming from. We Want To Help Preserve Wild Spaces for all. You talk about NE taking care of everything along the East Coast when you know only too well that NE hardly bother with the clubs in the area. It comes as no surprise to us that they bother when we come on the scene because we have a long history with them in other counties. I have given countless reasons on countless occasions why we pursue the plan and vision we have. Luckily from the amount of calls and emails we get from around the country many people agree and wish we had land holdings in their areas. You on the other hand seem to blame, accuse and now imply all sorts of wrong doings. Why don't you just be honest and say you don't want the new neighbours because several of you and your friends don't see a problem at present and your looking after your own interests. No one will blame you for that, including me. But do you really think muddying the water at every opportunity is the way forward. We believe that our vision is the way forward for the sport which will face many challenges in the future and I am on record as saying we will continue helping when asked if possible, whilst at the same time identifying opportunities to grow our own membership in readiness for the long fight ahead. If that's not what you think we should be doing, fine that's your opinion, but it's not everyone's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNT Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Then why take up the 1/4 share then , which leads back to my previous argument about taking up shooting in areas where your members are unlikley to travel. On the contrary, we have quite a few members who visit Norfolk, Cambridge and Essex often visiting the different sites on their way up and back. In addition we have several new members who are within a reasonable distance to these sites that they have never had access to before. As time goes by we expect to see membership grow as our portfolio either on our own or with other parties continues. We will shortly be announcing further shooting opportunities in conjunction with others which will only improve our base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttfjlc Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hi DNT do you mind me asking if your trying to be kinda like a UK version of Ducks Unlimited with some of your aims? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Well DNT I fail to see how Kent members will benefit as having a 1/4 share only ONE of the share holders are allowed to shoot at a time. Also a share holder is allowed SIX Guests a Season eg the person is allowed to apply for SIX Day Tickets be very interested to hear how Kent plan to over come this so ALL there members get a fair cracking. Or as you put are Kent thinking waiting long term and now they have their foot in the door ready to pounce on Another Club/Cubs Lease !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I too am a little worried about the plans that KWCA have for the future. I hope they fail in their objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diabolo Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I too am a little worried about the plans that KWCA have for the future. I hope they fail in their objectives. Maybe you should be posting here. http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/default.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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