Car search

[Fisherman Mike]

 

Would you be happy with 10k when your legal fees were 20k ?

 

Vince Green's comments are very valid, those that recommend rushing to Solicitors over every matter, seem to be deluded into thinking that they work for free, or that all legal costs are recoverable.

Nowadays a careful calculation of speculative benefit. against actual costs is highly recommended.

like I said then....just bend over and take it up the .........

[cuffy]

What's the difference between actually having the birds in the boot and having had the birds in the boot half an hour before work ??

 

Can you employer control what you put in your car when not at work ?

Edited December 24, 2014 by cuffy

[Thunderbird]

 

Would you be happy with 10k when your legal fees were 20k ?

 

Vince Green's comments are very valid, those that recommend rushing to Solicitors over every matter, seem to be deluded into thinking that they work for free, or that all legal costs are recoverable.

Nowadays a careful calculation of speculative benefit. against actual costs is highly recommended.

 

Somebody's legal fees wouldn't be twenty grand in a case of a similar type to this, and in fact many employees do get a cost award, it's the employers that don't unless the case can be shown to be aggravated or malicious/vexatious (as in the Pertemps [iIRC] case).

 

Vince Green's overall message is not valid and I'm surprised as a moderator you suggest that it is. I can't be bothered to go through it all as there are too many mistakes to count, but as the OP has already been given a shove in the right direction it's OK.

 

Nobody is recommending running to a solicitor "over every matter" - my advice has been that IF the OP genuinely doesn't want to lose his job to either speak to a brief or at the very least give ACAS a call. Unions are not relevant here because as far as I know his workplace isn't unionised.

 

Like I mentioned before, leverage in a case like this can often lead to a Settlement Agreement (aka Compromise Agreement), the legal advice for which the employer has to pay, and both parties walk away. It never hurts to take steps to show your employer you know what your rights are and in what way they've screwed up. For many employers the cheque they write isn't as a result of a tribunal, it's precisely to avoid one.

 

It's a commercial decision.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Thunderbird

[Fisherman Mike]

Like I said previously...

 

TB knows what he is talking about.

[Cranfield]

like I said then....just bend over and take it up the .........

 

I think a more reasoned rebuttal of my comments would have been more valid, than such an immature response.

Only a complete fool (or a very rich man) throws money at any dispute, with little or no chance of recovering it.

Its purely a matter of common sense, not some anti macho capitulation.

 

Somebody's legal fees wouldn't be twenty grand in a case of a similar type to this, and in fact most employees would get a cost award, it's the employers that don't unless the case can be shown to be aggravated or malicious/vexatious (as in the Pertemps [iIRC] case).

 

Vince Green's overall message is not valid and I'm surprised as a moderator you suggest that it is. I can't be bothered to go through it all as there are too many mistakes to count, but as the OP has already been given a shove in the right direction it's OK.

 

Nobody is recommending running to a solicitor "over every matter" - my advice has been that IF the OP genuinely doesn't want to lose his job to either speak to a brief or at the very least give ACAS a call. Unions are not relevant here because as far as I know his workplace isn't unionised.

 

Like I mentioned before, leverage in a case like this can often lead to a Settlement Agreement (aka Compromise Agreement), the legal advice for which the employer has to pay, and both parties walk away. It never hurts to take steps to show your employer you know what your rights are and in what way they've screwed up. For many employers the cheque they write isn't as a result of a tribunal, it's precisely to avoid one.

 

It's a commercial decision.

 

I agree the legal fees would not be 20k in such a case, but they could easily outstrip any award made.

 

Why are you surprised that as a "Moderator" I am expressing an opinion from my own knowledge and experience, I am a member on this Forum like every one else.

 

I agree its a "commercial decision", its risk against reward , how much can the OP afford to "risk" to gain a "reward".

 

Anyone who has has had any involvement with Industrial Tribunal awards, will confirm how difficult it can be to actually get the award, which is poorly enforced.

It normally means even more legal fees to be expended in that direction.

 

I gave my advice to the OP based on the information contained in his posts.

[Fisherman Mike]

You need to get out more Cranfield..your getting old and crusty

[Thunderbird]

 

 

Why are you surprised that as a "Moderator" I am expressing an opinion from my own knowledge and experience, I am a member on this Forum like every one else.

 

 

 

I see, I thought you were our appointed moral guardian. I stand corrected.

 

The OP is free to take whatever advice he chooses.

 

Compliments of the season etc.

[m3vert]

I would disagree with what Vince has said, but what's new. Thunderbird is much closer to the mark ;-)

 

Have a look at your household insurance policy as it may come in handy if you are dismissed unfairly. If you go to tribunal and win, your costs will be covered, but if your house insurance provide you with a lawyer you won't have any costs in any case!!!

 

God there are some defeatist folks on here lol

 

Have a merry Christmas folks ;-)

[AVB]

If you were dismissed (and it may not come to that) and you decided to take them to Tribunal then the Tribunal would be interested in knowing whether the company followed due process in the dismissal - Were the facts correct, was it investigated properly and due notice given etc. I don't believe that they would be interested in knowing how the birds were discovered. That would be a separate dispute between you and the company. Not sure whether that would involve the police or not or just becomes a civil matter.

 

The above statement is based upon no formal training but I have attended a number of Employment Tribunals on behalf of my employer over the years. It's not a pleasant experience.

 

Merry Christmas to all.

[Thunderbird]

One argument could be that (if searching the car the way it was done was actually a breach of contract) then the entire investigation and process flowed from that one breach, and had the breach not happened, neither would have the process.

 

It's a slightly tricky one actually, and one where (I reckon) it would be best served by a mutual apology and we move past it, alternatively if they have the bit between their teeth and want to go all mental about it, then an SA.

 

AVB is quite right that an Employment Tribunal is best avoided, however the knowledge that even if an employer successfully defends one it's going to cost them a few G's can make them reach for their cheque book.

 

Often it come down to a heart v head decision for the employer. Larger firms are usually more ready to settle than SMEs, especially owner-managed ones.

 

 

[AVB]

 

 

Often it come down to a heart v head decision for the employer. Larger firms are usually more ready to settle than SMEs, especially owner-managed ones.

 

 

 

Not sure nowadays. I had one tribunal where our legal costs were about £200K. We did get awarded £20K in costs against the nutter who was bringing the case which was a good feeling but didn't dent the overall bill.

[Thunderbird]

 

Not sure nowadays. I had one tribunal where our legal costs were about £200K. We did get awarded £20K in costs against the nutter who was bringing the case which was a good feeling but didn't dent the overall bill.

 

Wow, that's a good example of the need to stop digging when you're in a hole. Shows it happens at all levels.

 

I've got one at the moment where the nutter (and he is) is claiming nearly a hundred grand - he happens to know that the employer has Employment Practices Liability Insurance bundled with a different policy so he's hoping the insurer will soil their pants and settle for £20-30k and call it a good day.

 

What he's guilty of (and again, he is guilty) would make your eyes water.

[AVB]

 

Wow, that's a good example of the need to stop digging when you're in a hole. Shows it happens at all levels.

 

I've got one at the moment where the nutter (and he is) is claiming nearly a hundred grand - he happens to know that the employer has Employment Practices Liability Insurance bundled with a different policy so he's hoping the insurer will soil their pants and settle for £20-30k and call it a good day.

 

What he's guilty of (and again, he is guilty) would make your eyes water.

Our nutter was after £1.2mln. So a legal bill of £200K was to some extent justified.

[Thunderbird]

Our nutter was after £1.2mln. So a legal bill of £200K was to some extent justified.

 

[rich1985]

Well guys and gals had a 2 and a half hour meeting today to discuss why I had game in my car etc etc to then be sacked for breaking bio security rules, got right to appeal etc but is it really worth it? They didn't seem interested in the fact they had broken the rules and law. What next? Citizens advise etc?

[loriusgarrulus]

Well guys and gals had a 2 and a half hour meeting today to discuss why I had game in my car etc etc to then be sacked for breaking bio security rules, got right to appeal etc but is it really worth it? They didn't seem interested in the fact they had broken the rules and law. What next? Citizens advise etc?

Really sorry to hear that. Hope you can get another job quickly.

 

Even if you can get any redress from your former employer you will probably be better looking elsewhere for another job. Will keep my fingers crossed for you.

[kdubya]

ring ACAS on their free advice helpline

 

KW

0300 123 1100

[pegleg31]

The company you work for are they 100% above board with everything they do?.

The only reason I ask is when I left school I worked in the packing department of an egg processing plant and some of the things that they did were way off hand if not illegal. I wasn't there long and they never really upset me so I left them to it.

[Harnser]

Well guys and gals had a 2 and a half hour meeting today to discuss why I had game in my car etc etc to then be sacked for breaking bio security rules, got right to appeal etc but is it really worth it? They didn't seem interested in the fact they had broken the rules and law. What next? Citizens advise etc?

Contact a solicitor .contact a solicitor , contact a solicitor . Get proper legal advice over the matter otherwise you will get all bitter and twisted and bent out of shape . You can bet your life your company has had advice from their brief before sacking you .

 

Harnser

[kdubya]

Why so ?

 

If a mistake has been made and in breach of the employers regulations ...what can the unions do.? other than antagonise the situation and make things worse.

 

The time to get aggressive with possible Union interaction is when things deteriorate..

 

Going in now all guns blazing is just going to put the Employers back up.

 

Best to take some representation with you even if its an impartial witness to the proceedings...listen to what they have to say and then act accordingly...

 

Don't jump to any conclusions, don't agree to anything, and don't sign anything until you have had the opportunity to take advice and make a properly considered decision.

In the face of the now known outcome, some advice that eh? a decent union rep would have stopped this in its tracks simply by insisting on procedural adherence and following due process with FULL legal advice if and when needed but hey ho who needs unions? but then after all you did say later he would only get a smacked wrist anyway, seems your tips on employer/ employee relations and disciplinary outcomes are shall we say "lacking".

 

KW

Edited December 29, 2014 by kdubya

[al4x]

Ultimately I think they are justified simply because they have to take bio security very seriously, their business and ultimately the rest of the workforces jobs are at stake. Ultimately though its up to you whether you want to take it further but personally I'd suggest lesson learned and move on.

[poontang]

got right to appeal etc but is it really worth it?

 

 

Depends how much you want to keep that job.

 

If you really want it then you'll have to get proper legal advice.

In the meantime a call to ACAS as mentioned won't do any harm. I've used them and they're pretty clued up...far more so than Citizens Advice.

[brett1985]

 

ring ACAS on their free advice helpline

 

KW

0300 123 1100

 

 

 

Contact a solicitor .contact a solicitor , contact a solicitor . Get proper legal advice over the matter otherwise you will get all bitter and twisted and bent out of shape . You can bet your life your company has had advice from their brief before sacking you .

 

Harnser

 

 

both of the above.

 

if it where me, i would appeal it.

not sure if you have already been asked this, but are you a member of a union?

[Luckyshot]

For me its simple your company searched your car without you being present ( there rules ) then surely what they did or didn't find couldn't legally be used against you.

[fenboy]

Well guys and gals had a 2 and a half hour meeting today to discuss why I had game in my car etc etc to then be sacked for breaking bio security rules, got right to appeal etc but is it really worth it? They didn't seem interested in the fact they had broken the rules and law. What next? Citizens advise etc?

 

If you have the right to appeal then use it , it will be one of the first things a solicitor will ask have you done, you need to show any possible tribunal that you have followed the correct process.