Scully Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) Having read recently a few posts regarding topics as 'can I shoot steel through this gun?' , and 'is this gun steel proofed?', and 'how much to steel proof my gun?' etc, had me thinking. Are guns designed to take steel shot constructed any differently to those which are not? Is the metal for example, treated in a different manner to withstand greater pressures,or is it thicker/denser, or is it a case of the same guns, made to the same designs and the same metallurgic strengths, but then proved at higher pressures? I've always been (possibly wrongly I'll readily admit) rather sceptical regarding the entire steel proof issue, but if it's just a case of nitro proved guns tested at higher pressures, then isn't it safe to assume all our standard nitro proved guns are capable of withstanding even HP steel loads? I can understand and agree that it is better to have one fail at the proof house than in your hands, but are we all becoming indoctrinated into believing that to fire steel shot we need a steel proved gun? I fire HP steel through all my guns (except those choked at full, and that's just because they get a little punchy) and I gather that in the USA they don't appear to pay much heed to steel shot and non-steel proved guns like we do over here. Just a thought. Edited to add that none of my guns are proofed for steel. Edited February 5, 2015 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Interesting question Scully, I use various steel loads through old guns although none are the HP versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesj Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Don't think they even have proofing in america, any old bit of tub and away you go! Just look at some they have made on american guns . I always proof test any gun i get my self, heavy load, gun clamped down, a long bit if string and stand well back. Not that that answers you question in any way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Think most the worry comes in due to the large number of old English gun still in service that do have thin muzzles and are made of softish steel. Even light choking could struggle against that hard column of shot all be it the thick plastic was acting as a yielding barrier. I do think the high pressure thing is over played, I mean some link the phrase high pressure with danger or extra special. When in fact it is neither. I have long advocated the use of steel in muzzle loaders with a card wrap. So what if the barrel is scored a little! At least if we get close enough we can try for a duck. Later we can smash our teeth on the pellets lol. Stupid laws lol. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) CIP and SAAMI (USA) have different regulations. SAAMI sets the pressure limits based on chamber pressure of the cartridge, regardless of the type of shot (steel or lead) being fired (burst test). CIP on the other hand make two steel carts, normal steel and HP steel and has two proof tests. Standard CIP Steel Shot, is lower in maximum pressure than all SAAMI products, including CIP lead shot. Guns that have passed the CIP nitro proof can shoot this standard steel shot. The second, called High Performance Steel Shot, this actually has service pressure (not chamber pressure) far in excess of SAAMI 12 gauge 2-3/4 inch and 3 inch service loads and CIP lead loads. The CIP proof the HP steel with an HP steel/steel-like cartridge which uses three cartridges containing large steel pellets and generating some 30% greater service pressure per barrel over the normal Nitro proof and the gun is then marked Steel Shot and with Fleur-de-Lys.. Confusion often arises when a gun is stamped with a 1370 chamber pressure but no steel proof mark, people think that equates to CIP steel proof as the chamber pressure are the same. However the service pressure is much higher for the CIP HP steel proof test due to the bigger and harder steel shot used in the proof process. In the USA you cannot buy a cartridge that produces the same service pressure as the HP steel available in the UK. Therefore you have to be careful comparing what they do in the USA compared to what we do over here. The lack of steel proof doesn't mean that it is automatically going to fail but it does increase the possibility when using HP steel and if it does fail several inches from your face it could smart a bit. The CIP standard steel shot is covered by the normal Nitro proof so not a problem for modern guns. So in answer to the OP the gun has just been tested with a test load that exceeds what you can buy and therefore the risk of it exploding in your face is greatly diminished. Edited February 5, 2015 by timps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 CIP and SAAMI (USA) have different regulations. SAAMI sets the pressure limits based on chamber pressure of the cartridge, regardless of the type of shot (steel or lead) being fired (burst test). CIP on the other hand make two steel carts, normal steel and HP steel and has two proof tests. Standard CIP Steel Shot, is lower in maximum pressure than all SAAMI products, including CIP lead shot. Guns that have past the CIP nitro proof can shoot this standard steel shot. The second, called High Performance Steel Shot, this actually has service pressure (not chamber pressure) far in excess of SAAMI 12 gauge 2-3/4 inch and 3 inch service loads and CIP lead loads. The CIP proof the HP steel with an HP steel/steel-like cartridge which uses three cartridges containing large steel pellets and generating some 30% greater service pressure per barrel over the normal Nitro proof and the gun is then marked Steel Shot and with Fleur-de-Lys.. Confusion often arises when a gun is stamped with a 1370 chamber pressure but no steel proof mark, people think that equates to CIP steel proof as the chamber pressure are the same. However the service pressure is much higher for the CIP HP steel proof test due to the bigger and harder steel shot used in the proof process. In the USA you cannot buy a cartridge that produces the same service pressure as the HP steel available in the UK. Therefore you have to be careful comparing what they do in the USA compared to what we do over here. The lack of steel proof doesn't mean that it is automatically going to fail but it does increase the possibility when using HP steel and if it does fail several inches from your face it could smart a bit. The CIP standard steel shot is covered by the normal Nitro proof so not a problem for modern guns. So in answer to the OP the gun has just been tested with a test load that exceeds what you can buy and therefore the risk of it exploding in your face is greatly diminished. Many thanks for taking the time, most informative. So unless I've misunderstood, there is no difference in the metallurgic construction of the shotguns tested for steel and those modern but otherwise not steel proofed guns we currently use , with the exception of Damascus and those not proved for nitro? It is the same design built to the same tolerances but tested with a much bigger load? So by using HP steel through my non steel proofed guns I have in effect proved my guns for steel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Err no. There are a few metallurgies in use for modern fluid steel barrels. More alloys than days of old. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) Many thanks for taking the time, most informative. So unless I've misunderstood, there is no difference in the metallurgic construction of the shotguns tested for steel and those modern but otherwise not steel proofed guns we currently use , with the exception of Damascus and those not proved for nitro? It is the same design built to the same tolerances but tested with a much bigger load? So by using HP steel through my non steel proofed guns I have in effect proved my guns for steel? Broadly speaking that is correct, the only caveats are: The proof load is designed to take into account worst case scenario and has a built in safety margin. Therefore it is a special load with a greater chamber pressure and service pressure than that available over the counter. There is a very very small and remote possibility that your gun could fail the proof load but survive an over the counter normal steel HP load. One slightly different cart or change in brand and there could be a failure, God knows the odds on that scenario but I thought I would point it out all the same. Also a manufacturer may identify a wear issue, not necessarily with the metallurgic construction but the taper of the forcing cones and chrome coating etc. meaning the gun passes the proof test but then doesn’t last as intended, but that’s not so much a safety issue. Obviously I cannot speak for every manufacturer out there but If your gun is available in steel proof game model or can use normal steel shot there shouldn't be a wear issue. There are different types of metal alloys used by various manufacturers but I have never heard of one that is lead only or only used for steel proofed guns. Edited to add : (modern guns) Edited February 5, 2015 by timps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffin Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 This confuses me and am where I was 10 years ago What I want is non toxic that will kill as well as lead not harm my gun even if it is a 100 year old s/s or a Winchester 101 cost the same I shot with a guy this year only shoots steel through his new o/u at game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Where's cookoff 013 when you need him? When (if) using HP steel cartridges through a non HP steel proved gun, it's worth bearing in mind the service pressure (1050 bar) testing pressure criteria for the cartridges.. I think I'm right in saying that although only one per test batch is permitted, the maximum permitted pressure for that one should you ever encounter one in your box could well make your eyes water. I'm sure cookoff has the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 I've often wondered what the score (forgive the pun) would be in using steel in modern repros of unchoked muzzle loaders, possibly with a card wrap as mentioned earlier. I'm thinking in terms of bigger bore fowling guns like 10s and 8s, both of which are available as modern reproductions. Would it be feasible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 (edited) I've often wondered what the score (forgive the pun) would be in using steel in modern repros of unchoked muzzle loaders, possibly with a card wrap as mentioned earlier. I'm thinking in terms of bigger bore fowling guns like 10s and 8s, both of which are available as modern reproductions. Would it be feasible? Early this season Zapp I took a duck with steel in my flinter. I put a thin wad in the muzzle and pushed down a predetermined amount. Added the thin card wrap, wrapped twice in, added the steel shot and rammed home. I used the volume of powder as if it was lead.Only the one shot, no marks at all down the tube! U. Edited February 5, 2015 by Underdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 HP has a set criteria, what it does not differentiate is shot type...... as so many new types are / were about so you can actually have a HP lead cartridge.... i`ve made one my self... so HP is for the upper tier of the proofing system for "High performance" in 12gauge the average pressures must be 1050BAR with no outliers exceeding 1200bar to get that 1050 average..... howerver must be used in guns proofed to 1320BAR or so? i forgot and i cant really be bothered to look it up. the other gauges have there own unique pressures also..... http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=1&cartridge_type_id=7 if you check on page 3 (not in the sun newspaper). that underneath its the pressure stats for HP shells. also the fact they have set up criteria for weirdo shells, such as... 20gauge 3.5" shells and 28gauge 3" or even 16 gauge 3"...... but check out this little diagram of chamber, shell and the respective specifications..... http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-vii/tabviical-en-page4.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 CIP and SAAMI (USA) have different regulations. SAAMI sets the pressure limits based on chamber pressure of the cartridge, regardless of the type of shot (steel or lead) being fired (burst test). CIP on the other hand make two steel carts, normal steel and HP steel and has two proof tests. Standard CIP Steel Shot, is lower in maximum pressure than all SAAMI products, including CIP lead shot. Guns that have passed the CIP nitro proof can shoot this standard steel shot. The second, called High Performance Steel Shot, this actually has service pressure (not chamber pressure) far in excess of SAAMI 12 gauge 2-3/4 inch and 3 inch service loads and CIP lead loads. The CIP proof the HP steel with an HP steel/steel-like cartridge which uses three cartridges containing large steel pellets and generating some 30% greater service pressure per barrel over the normal Nitro proof and the gun is then marked Steel Shot and with Fleur-de-Lys.. Confusion often arises when a gun is stamped with a 1370 chamber pressure but no steel proof mark, people think that equates to CIP steel proof as the chamber pressure are the same. However the service pressure is much higher for the CIP HP steel proof test due to the bigger and harder steel shot used in the proof process. In the USA you cannot buy a cartridge that produces the same service pressure as the HP steel available in the UK. Therefore you have to be careful comparing what they do in the USA compared to what we do over here. The lack of steel proof doesn't mean that it is automatically going to fail but it does increase the possibility when using HP steel and if it does fail several inches from your face it could smart a bit. The CIP standard steel shot is covered by the normal Nitro proof so not a problem for modern guns. So in answer to the OP the gun has just been tested with a test load that exceeds what you can buy and therefore the risk of it exploding in your face is greatly diminished. I don't understand. Am I missing something, here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 I don't understand. Am I missing something, here? The maximum average chamber pressure for cartridges to conform to SAAMI (USA) 12 gauge 2-3/4" and 3" ammunition; all types of shot is 11,500 psi (793 bar) Or for 3-1/2” 14,000 psi (965 bar). The maximum average chamber pressure for HP cartridges to conform to CIP (UK) is 15,229 psi (1,050 bar). Based on the above you cannot buy a cartridge at 1,050 bar in the USA but you can in the UK. For 3" loads the difference between the maximum average pressures is quite marked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roostshooter1 Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 I have thought this my self with the hole steel arguement one thing i really dont understand is that they say no steel through more than half choke but then they sell you aftermarket extended chokes in full and then people are happy to go blazing steel loads through them at duck and geese so whats the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Broadly speaking that is correct, the only caveats are: The proof load is designed to take into account worst case scenario and has a built in safety margin. Therefore it is a special load with a greater chamber pressure and service pressure than that available over the counter. There is a very very small and remote possibility that your gun could fail the proof load but survive an over the counter normal steel HP load. One slightly different cart or change in brand and there could be a failure, God knows the odds on that scenario but I thought I would point it out all the same. Also a manufacturer may identify a wear issue, not necessarily with the metallurgic construction but the taper of the forcing cones and chrome coating etc. meaning the gun passes the proof test but then doesn’t last as intended, but that’s not so much a safety issue. Obviously I cannot speak for every manufacturer out there but If your gun is available in steel proof game model or can use normal steel shot there shouldn't be a wear issue. There are different types of metal alloys used by various manufacturers but I have never heard of one that is lead only or only used for steel proofed guns. Edited to add : (modern guns) Many thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 The maximum average chamber pressure for cartridges to conform to SAAMI (USA) 12 gauge 2-3/4" and 3" ammunition; all types of shot is 11,500 psi (793 bar) Or for 3-1/2” 14,000 psi (965 bar). The maximum average chamber pressure for HP cartridges to conform to CIP (UK) is 15,229 psi (1,050 bar). Based on the above you cannot buy a cartridge at 1,050 bar in the USA but you can in the UK. For 3" loads the difference between the maximum average pressures is quite marked. I would like to bet that there are no factory steel loads in the UK that come in at anywhere near to 12000 psi, let alone 15000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 I would like to bet that there are no factory steel loads in the UK that come in at anywhere near to 12000 psi, let alone 15000. You might like to bet with your well being but others might not and seeing as you haven't tested them all or know what is being brought out next week as the new next thing in ultimate HP cartridges it's kind of an irrelevant statement as you personally just don't know. My only point was UK HP loads can be a higher pressure than SAAMI loads especially 3" so you have to be CAREFUL in saying it works in the USA no problem so will work in the UK. How you deal with this info is entirely up to you as I have no intention of testing them all to prove a point one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 You might like to bet with your well being but others might not and seeing as you haven't tested them all or know what is being brought out next week as the new next thing in ultimate HP cartridges it's kind of an irrelevant statement as you personally just don't know. My only point was UK HP loads can be a higher pressure than SAAMI loads especially 3" so you have to be CAREFUL in saying it works in the USA no problem so will work in the UK. How you deal with this info is entirely up to you as I have no intention of testing them all to prove a point one way or the other. That's fair enough. I have reloaded a fair few very fast steel loads over the last couple of years. They certainly exceed any velocity you are likely to encounter from any factory shells that are loaded in the UK. In many instances the loads are going at over 1600fps. I would say the normal range for a fast steel load is between 9000 - 13000 psi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsonicnat Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Guns made today have far better steel than years ago, most have Chrome in them and can withstand far greater pressures. Have a look at the guns of yester- year and look at the ones today, they are miles ahead of what was used when I first started 50 + years ago. its amazing really, The American guns and proof are way below our standards in this country.. apart from a tank of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 The quickest load in my manual is 1795 fps and generates 10.000 PSI of pressure , as far as I am aware there is not a cartridge available in this country that comes anything close to that sort of speed. Even the heavy 3.5" loads only generate around 11.000 PSI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 The American guns and proof are way below our standards in this country.. I very much doubt that but I'd be really interested in some source of proof for this statement if you don't mind, as most of my guns are Winchesters, albeit made in Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Guns made today have far better steel than years ago, most have Chrome in them and can withstand far greater pressures. Have a look at the guns of yester- year and look at the ones today, they are miles ahead of what was used when I first started 50 + years ago. its amazing really, The American guns and proof are way below our standards in this country.. apart from a tank of course. #1 yes, better stronger steel. #2 chrome is the plating to reduce corrosion. thats all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Some chromium is included in some steel alloys cookie! U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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