wymberley Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) might go for a hornet instead. If you do, give some thought to the twist rate. The usual is 1 in 16, but the 1 in 14 opens up the choice of bullets which can be stabilised if you're going to reload and includes some 50 grainers like the Hornady SPSX. Just a thought. Edit: Reworded was ambiguous. Edited March 16, 2015 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Hmr is quite capable for fox, just be sensible with it, shoot within your capabilities and use sensible ranges.None of the foxes i have shot with the hmr have ever complained. If you want to reach out then get a .223 or similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 As above, the HMR is very capable of stopping foxes when used within its capabilities, and the capabilities of the shooter (you can say the same about any quarry/calibre). My last was a dog just short of 20lb on Thursday eve, went down on the spot with a heart shot at 100 yards, 17g V Max. For all those who say it is not allowed in their regions, it may well be worth noting the New Home Office Guide list the HMR as acceptable for Fox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) Agree with Dekers. Here's the latest Home Office Guidance to the Police in black and white. It is also as plain as day that .22LR can be used for fox by "experienced persons". If you have the ticket it is for you to decide. ".... the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill". 13.19 The term “game” covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport. These include pheasant, partridge, grouse, ptarmigan and ground game (rabbits and hares). The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel, brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such as rook and crow. Whilst species including wood pigeon and corvids are regarded as pests or vermin, they are protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, and therefore can only be shot under the relevant general licence. It is important to note that animals such as deer, wild boar etc are not viewed as vermin. Under schedule 6 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, certain species such as wild cats, pine martens, badgers and otters may not be shot with any automatic or semi-automatic firearm, or killed, or taken by other prohibited methods under section 11(2) of the 1981 Act. These species may be pests under certain circumstances but may only be killed under licence (see also chapter 14). Guidance on foxes can be found in paragraphs 13.25 and 13.26. 13.20 Although not set out in legislation, the rifle cartridges most commonly used to shoot ground game and vermin are .17 rimfire (HMR & Mach 2) and .22 rimfire. More powerful centrefire cartridges, such as .17 Remington and .22 Hornet are also suitable for ground game and vermin, and may be considered if the applicant also intends to shoot fox to avoid possession of a further gun. Expanding ammunition may be granted for shooting vermin. Fox 13.25 Although not set out in legislation, common rifle cartridges considered suitable for the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available. In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes, they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or 6.5mm (.264) calibre. .22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around farm buildings or paddocks. It is for the operator to ensure that the quarry species are shot at the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill. Combination shotgun/rifles should have the rifled barrel in a similar calibre. Expanding ammunition should be authorised for shooting foxes. Those involved in shooting foxes will normally be authorised to possess up to 250 rounds, but consideration should be given to each shooter’s individual circumstances, particularly where re-loaders are acquiring missiles. See also paragraph 13.9 on allowing the applicant flexibility to reasonably shoot other species on named land. 13.26 It is desirable that new applicants should have some previous experience of the safe use of firearms before using such rifles. Experience is neither cartridge nor ammunition type exclusive. It may include the shooting of any quarry species. The aspect that police are looking to be satisfied about is the competency of the applicant to take a safe shot every time. The shooting of any quarry requires a safe backstop for the shot, and such experience is transferable between quarry species. Edited March 17, 2015 by Whitebridges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psycho Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 I use .17 hmr all of the time on fox head shot no problem with it at all its a very effective round as long as you know its capabilities so you would not use at 200 yards .. I would rather use .17hmr than a center fire round on my permission for safety reasons..it is classed for fox in accordance with the police and licences and I am biased and think there is no round better for rabbit .crow better than a .22 lr and its a very capable round for close range fox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 I would personally use a.22wmr over the.17Hmr as I would only use it for close range fox. I wouldn't waste my time on popping the odd crow here and there It's not an effective way of controlling corvids. That's where a shotgun comes into its own. but with regards fox control the Max range for 17hmr would be 80-100 yards if the shooter was up to the job. The. 22 wmr has better ballistics/energy at 100 -120 yards which in my case would be all I was interested in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psycho Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Agree with Dekers. Here's the latest Home Office Guidance to the Police in black and white. It is also as plain as day that .22LR can be used for fox by "experienced persons". If you have the ticket it is for you to decide. ".... the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill". 13.19 The term “game” covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport. These include pheasant, partridge, grouse, ptarmigan and ground game (rabbits and hares). The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel, brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such as rook and crow. Whilst species including wood pigeon and corvids are regarded as pests or vermin, they are protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, and therefore can only be shot under the relevant general licence. It is important to note that animals such as deer, wild boar etc are not viewed as vermin. Under schedule 6 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, certain species such as wild cats, pine martens, badgers and otters may not be shot with any automatic or semi-automatic firearm, or killed, or taken by other prohibited methods under section 11(2) of the 1981 Act. These species may be pests under certain circumstances but may only be killed under licence (see also chapter 14). Guidance on foxes can be found in paragraphs 13.25 and 13.26. 13.20 Although not set out in legislation, the rifle cartridges most commonly used to shoot ground game and vermin are .17 rimfire (HMR & Mach 2) and .22 rimfire. More powerful centrefire cartridges, such as .17 Remington and .22 Hornet are also suitable for ground game and vermin, and may be considered if the applicant also intends to shoot fox to avoid possession of a further gun. Expanding ammunition may be granted for shooting vermin. Fox 13.25 Although not set out in legislation, common rifle cartridges considered suitable for the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available. In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes, they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or 6.5mm (.264) calibre. .22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around farm buildings or paddocks. It is for the operator to ensure that the quarry species are shot at the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill. Combination shotgun/rifles should have the rifled barrel in a similar calibre. Expanding ammunition should be authorised for shooting foxes. Those involved in shooting foxes will normally be authorised to possess up to 250 rounds, but consideration should be given to each shooter’s individual circumstances, particularly where re-loaders are acquiring missiles. See also paragraph 13.9 on allowing the applicant flexibility to reasonably shoot other species on named land. 13.26 It is desirable that new applicants should have some previous experience of the safe use of firearms before using such rifles. Experience is neither cartridge nor ammunition type exclusive. It may include the shooting of any quarry species. The aspect that police are looking to be satisfied about is the competency of the applicant to take a safe shot every time. The shooting of any quarry requires a safe backstop for the shot, and such experience is transferable between quarry species. See page 121 which shows a table of what and what you can't use it says that .17 hmr is acceptable for medium size quarry is fox if I lived in wales I would inform the police who are not following the home office guidance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 I used to use HMR for fox out to 100yds max always went for a head shot never had a runner it just turns there head to mush. Then my licensing authority said i had to use something bigger so i went for a 223 that is what i use and only go for body shots now and i have had them drop on the spot but i have also had quite a few runners. I never had when i used the HMR All my shots with the 223 are within 150 yds usually shoot them from my fox box when they are coming into a bait station thats only 90yds for the box.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 See page 121 which shows a table of what and what you can't use it says that .17 hmr is acceptable for medium size quarry is fox if I lived in wales I would inform the police who are not following the home office guidance Not that I live in wales but personally I find that harsh and **** stirring. We can't control others but can control our own actions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Has anyone actually taken the time to look at the energy for the hmr for stated distances? Some people still think it's a 150 to 200 yard caliber, which it isn't. Sub 100 yard okay, but given how wind affects this little round I'd say sub 80 yard. At 120 yards the energy rapidly drops off, by the time you get out to 200 you've got about 28ft/lb left in the bag. Not enough energy to expand and you're effectively trying to shoot live quarry with a very inaccurate .177 fac air rifle. I wouldn't use it on anything beyond 100 - 120 yards, under that it's quite a capable little thing provided you take wind into account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 I would personally use a.22wmr over the.17Hmr as I would only use it for close range fox. I wouldn't waste my time on popping the odd crow here and there It's not an effective way of controlling corvids. That's where a shotgun comes into its own. but with regards fox control the Max range for 17hmr would be 80-100 yards if the shooter was up to the job. The. 22 wmr has better ballistics/energy at 100 -120 yards which in my case would be all I was interested in. I use WMR and HMR on Fox (and .22lr and centrefires and shotguns). I would tend to go with 100-120 yards for either, (it is rare I would push either further as I would simply use a bigger tool). What determines HMR or WMR use for me is not distance, which I rate very similar, but circumstance/environment. I can hit a fox pretty much wherever I like with a 30g WMR V-Max and it will fall down, you have to be a lttle more considerate with placement if using a HMR 17g V-Max. Circumstance and environment is what decides me on either HMR or WMR, I don't remember the last time distance was the factor when comparing the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Not that I live in wales but personally I find that harsh and **** stirring. We can't control others but can control our own actions Did I miss something tt? Whats wrong with a discussion with a region reference the latest Home Office Guide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) I use WMR and HMR on Fox (and .22lr and centrefires and shotguns). I would tend to go with 100-120 yards for either, (it is rare I would push either further as I would simply use a bigger tool). What determines HMR or WMR use for me is not distance, which I rate very similar, but circumstance/environment. I can hit a fox pretty much wherever I like with a 30g WMR V-Max and it will fall down, you have to be a lttle more considerate with placement if using a HMR 17g V-Max. Circumstance and environment is what decides me on either HMR or WMR, I don't remember the last time distance was the factor when comparing the two. That's my point dekers. I would only use upto 100 ish yards. The fact that a 17 will Shoot much flatter at a longer range. Has no bearing on my choice. for me personally. Be it HMR Or WRM it would only be used at 100ish yards on Charlie so for its got to be the one with more punch. Hence why I go for the WRM in situations not suitable for CF. Edited March 19, 2015 by stevo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 How many shooters range find distances not many and at night its a lot harder to judge distance if you got a fox that wont come in beyond say 140 mtrs how many say I wont try that it is to far they will take the shot you got have self discipline you will get some that will take the shot anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 How many shooters range find distances not many and at night its a lot harder to judge distance if you got a fox that wont come in beyond say 140 mtrs how many say I wont try that it is to far they will take the shot you got have self discipline you will get some that will take the shot anyway Your right. Lots don't have a clue about range. As most of us know range finding at night is a nightmare. Now some may laugh at this. But to me it's just a case of whatever works. On the entrance to my shoots I have markers along the fence 50 75 100 yards. For no other reason than to remind myself of what a given range looks like in the dark under lamp light. If I'm out with the rimmy if it's the CF it's not a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordieh Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) .17hmr is now not allowed for fox in North Wales! Yet I could come up there with my .17 hmr and shoot foxes on an open ticket.Do you not have AOLQ issued on FAC in North Wales Edited March 19, 2015 by geordieh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Did I miss something tt? Whats wrong with a discussion with a region reference the latest Home Office Guide? He said he would report anyone breaking the guidelines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 He said he would report anyone breaking the guidelines Read it again, he didn't say that. He said he would inform the police that they (the police), not other shooters were contravening the home office guidelines if they disallow .17 HMR for fox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 He said he would report anyone breaking the guidelines I see where you are coming from now, I guess his comment could be taken both ways, I interpreted it as Blunderbuss above, saying he would tell the Police, that the Police were not following the guidelines! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psycho Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) The police are not following the guidelines page 121 says that .17 hmr is a valid calibre for fox see the table under medium size vermin .I have one of the worst constabulary when it comes to licencing and waiting times but even Durham recognise .17 hmr is an appropriate round if they did not I would ask basc to look into it. That's why I pay my money every month. Rules are rules and I would think home office trumps police and if basc did not I would join another group Edited March 20, 2015 by psycho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Ok then my error how I read it . I was thinking you meant fellow shooters. The police need a kick up the back side at the best of times . Staffs have been really good but at first wouldn't give AOLQ conditions out 2 years ago. I've only had a few fox with my hmr but just under the ears turns it's brain to juice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Has anyone actually taken the time to look at the energy for the hmr for stated distances? Some people still think it's a 150 to 200 yard caliber, which it isn't. Sub 100 yard okay, but given how wind affects this little round I'd say sub 80 yard. At 120 yards the energy rapidly drops off, by the time you get out to 200 you've got about 28ft/lb left in the bag. Not enough energy to expand and you're effectively trying to shoot live quarry with a very inaccurate .177 fac air rifle. I wouldn't use it on anything beyond 100 - 120 yards, under that it's quite a capable little thing provided you take wind into account. How did you work that out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Bleary-eyed, late at night and quickly. Actually you have about 50ftlb in the bag at 200 yards. Still not a great deal of energy is it and a projectile that can wander off to either side of your aim point (even if you take into account windage). Rather than relying on manufacturers data for velocity I chrono'ed several from a moderated, 16" barrel rifle. I can't remember the precise velocity I got but it was under Hornady's figures. It's scribbled down somewhere on a piece of paper in the office, which I can't put my hands on at the moment. Edited March 20, 2015 by mick miller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good shot? Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Has anyone actually taken the time to look at the energy for the hmr for stated distances? Some people still think it's a 150 to 200 yard caliber, which it isn't. Sub 100 yard okay, but given how wind affects this little round I'd say sub 80 yard. At 120 yards the energy rapidly drops off, by the time you get out to 200 you've got about 28ft/lb left in the bag. Not enough energy to expand and you're effectively trying to shoot live quarry with a very inaccurate .177 fac air rifle. I wouldn't use it on anything beyond 100 - 120 yards, under that it's quite a capable little thing provided you take wind into account. My information tells me it is around 70 ft/lb at 200 yards down range. Certainly not a foxing range for hmr but smaller quarry in the right conditions, no problem. Edited March 20, 2015 by Good shot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Strange how people worry about ft.lbs on a rifle but with a shotgun they are not bothered. I think the hmr is a good little round fast and flat ideal if you have alot of rabbits and come across fox. If you are going out just for fox then take the cf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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