when happens, how you deal with flinching?

[Sian]

I have heard of some people using a reverse action trigger very succesfully.I think that works with you starting off with the trigger pulled and then releasing pressure which activates the trigger. Personally that would scare me but as I say it has been used effectivly.. from Auntie,.

I thought that too but I have witnessed someone who does have trigger freeze and quite bad trigger freeze start to use a release trigger and very effectively - he is a good shot but his hit rate was really suffering and he would become unbalanced sometimes which was worrying but he is now back up in scores and seems to be doing very well with it. I have to say he adapted to it very quickly. I did notice at a registered shoot they do write on the card that he is using it.

[Junkyard Dog]

That is one reason for being unable to get a second shot off but sometimes I can't even get the first off.I have even tried saying ready instead of pull. from Auntie.

Thats just your Yorkshire genes, not wanting to spend on the shells..... lol

[100milesaway]

I knew someone would rumble me. from Auntie.

[ehb102]

When you say mental you refer to brain memory or some psyhological problem??

 

Oops,my carefully written response appears to have disappeared. Sorry, I was reading on my phone after that so didn't notice.

 

My discipline is Traumatic Incident Reduction. Any experience, good or bad, can be processed in one of two ways. Either your brain files the memory in your normal autobiographical memory for recall when you need it, or it becomes a traumatic memory. Please note that I use the word "traumatic" to mean a memory stored in a certain way, not a judgement of how bad a particular experience is. The traumatic memory is stored completely in tact and can be triggered by similar circumstances or linked items. Thus if you and I are in the same car crash you might be perfectly fine, even though you still have an unpleasant memory, but I might be traumatized and have the memory triggered and experience terror every time I get into a car.

 

These traumatic memories are like a pile of big rocks on your life. My work is about shifting this pile of rocks. We deal with the obvious traumatic incidences by structured repetitive viewing. That's the simple stuff. The rest of my work is uncovering the incidences that lead up to supposedly illogical feelings and actions, and about shifting the pile of rocks so you can move on in life.

 

The interesting thing about trauma is that it can be layered. So in the case of shooting you might have a simple trauma, that you lost confidence because you were being watched. It happened at one time, one place. That would be a root memory. Quite often the incident is linked to an earlier memory.You lose confidence shooting when you are watched because the time you were watched whilst shooting was similar to the time you were watched doing a presentation at work which was similar to the time you were reading aloud in school and didn't know a word and everyone laughed. That's simplistic, but it shows the principle. Traumatic memories can come in chains. When I had my fear of spiders fixed there was a chain of nine memories, and the last one I couldn't have recalled when I started working on it.

 

I hope that's reasonably informative. Each traumatic incident usually takes one session to deal with. A general issue such as an eating disorder might have several parts to it, but with something less obvious like bulimia it usually takes three or four sessions. Don't say "It wasn't that bad, it can't be traumatic" because we're not taking about judging what should or shouldn't be traumatic. I use the word in a different sense to the newspapers.

 

Once you've addressed an incident the memory doesn't change but how you feel about it does. It doesn't control you any more. Quite often clients do an intake interview and a session and that's enough to help them really move on with their life.

 

I have to go and pick up the baby again but let me end by saying this: I've never had a client who, no matter how strange or illogical their feelings apparently were, didn't have a REALLY GOOD REASON for feeling that way.

[Orangeclay]

ehb 102 I got it you are dealing with trauma but no the cause of it!

 

How you can fix a trauma if you don,t know the cause of it??

 

How I understand is , if you have fever take an Aspirin, but you don,t cure the cause of the fever!

 

Am I wrong??

[grrclark]

That's really interesting Liz, would quite like to chat around that and learn a bit more.

 

I believe that people fall into a trap of 'thinking errors', some of it is sub conscious, but most of it is conditioned or learned. Not dissimilar to your traumatic or autobiographic memories.

 

I suppose it is the difference of neocortex based reasoning and limbic or reptilian reactions. If you can condition that out then I am guessing the traumatic memory is limbic or emotional based?

[ehb102]

ehb 102 I got it you are dealing with trauma but no the cause of it!

 

How you can fix a trauma if you don,t know the cause of it??

 

How I understand is , if you have fever take an Aspirin, but you don,t cure the cause of the fever!

 

Am I wrong??

 

We do address the root cause of a traumatic memory, we work with the memory itself. You just don't have to know where that is to start with. Getting there is down to the client with my help - I'm a facilitator, rather than a therapist. I have a number of tools to help a client start with top level feelings and work out where root incidences are. You start with a recent memory or a feeling, or a pain, or a sensation. The mind will provide. Once you get there we turn the traumatic memory into a normal autobiographical memory. Hey, presto! Memory is no longer traumatic.

 

 

 

That's really interesting Liz, would quite like to chat around that and learn a bit more.

 

I believe that people fall into a trap of 'thinking errors', some of it is sub conscious, but most of it is conditioned or learned. Not dissimilar to your traumatic or autobiographic memories.

 

I suppose it is the difference of neocortex based reasoning and limbic or reptilian reactions. If you can condition that out then I am guessing the traumatic memory is limbic or emotional based?

 

 

That sounds about right. I'm very cautious about making neurological claims as it's such a fast moving field, but yes, the amygdala is involved AFAIK.

 

Unlayering subconscious thought is one of the most powerful and effective parts of this discipline. I've had lots of people trapped in unhealthy behaviour who at one time thought a perfectly reasonable thing such as "I must do this" but that thought of why gets left behind and all that's left is the intention, as a compulsion or barrier to change. Unlayering and unblocking are the things I do most after trauma resolution.

[grrclark]

That sounds about right. I'm very cautious about making neurological claims as it's such a fast moving field, but yes, the amygdala is involved AFAIK.

 

Unlayering subconscious thought is one of the most powerful and effective parts of this discipline. I've had lots of people trapped in unhealthy behaviour who at one time thought a perfectly reasonable thing such as "I must do this" but that thought of why gets left behind and all that's left is the intention, as a compulsion or barrier to change. Unlayering and unblocking are the things I do most after trauma resolution.

That is really fascinating to hear how that is facilitated as part of a memory re-ordering process, I get what you are saying, I think, that it is not therapy in the traditional sense, it is just helping people to re-order or re-prioritise their thinking process or behaviours to eliminate the negative or destructive thoughts. Hopefully that sounds accurate?

 

If someone has a genuine neurological condition then you can't change that, but if it is conditioned behaviour then you can. So operant conditioning I guess, but almost in reverse?!?

 

It is nothing other than an enthusiastic amateur interest for me, but I have helped people who were vastly under achieving at work improve their performance by just helping them to stop making thinking errors. For a multitude of reasons they just built barriers in their mind that stopped them from doing what they needed to do.

 

Derailing the thread a bit, sorry OP.

[ehb102]

Hopefully that sounds accurate?

 

 

Yes, spot on.

 

If someone has a genuine neurological condition then you can't change that, but if it is conditioned behaviour then you can. So operant conditioning I guess, but almost in reverse?!?

 

Yes and yeees-ish, because traumatic memories are generated once but conditioning takes repetition.

 

Work is being done by my colleagues on how you can help people with brain damage for example, but that's new and not my area so generally I'd say that first statement is true. Even a few years ago we were told that personality disorders were unfixable but great strides have been made in helping institutionalised people in the last two years, to the to point of them going home.

 

 

It is nothing other than an enthusiastic amateur interest for me, but I have helped people who were vastly under achieving at work improve their performance by just helping them to stop making thinking errors. For a multitude of reasons they just built barriers in their mind that stopped them from doing what they needed to do.

 

You seem to know your stuff :-)

Hopefully that sounds accurate?

 

 

Yes, spot on.

 

If someone has a genuine neurological condition then you can't change that, but if it is conditioned behaviour then you can. So operant conditioning I guess, but almost in reverse?!?

 

Yes and yeees-ish, because traumatic memories are generated once but conditioning takes repetition.

 

Work is being done by my colleagues on how you can help people with brain damage for example, but that's new and not my area so generally I'd say that first statement is true. Even a few years ago we were told that personality disorders were unfixable but great strides have been made in helping institutionalised people in the last two years, to the to point of them going home.

 

 

It is nothing other than an enthusiastic amateur interest for me, but I have helped people who were vastly under achieving at work improve their performance by just helping them to stop making thinking errors. For a multitude of reasons they just built barriers in their mind that stopped them from doing what they needed to do.

 

You seem to know your stuff :-)

[grrclark]

Not so sure that I really know, but I find it hugely interesting.

 

People are relatively simple animals who have just learned to think much more complex than they need to, as you say it's all layers. Break that down and you get back to basics pretty quickly.

 

To get back to the OP, anything that is learned, be it conscious or considered thought or an emotional reaction, it can be unlearned and re-programmed to either change the behavioural outcome or completely remove the causal reason from the thought process, which is what Liz offers. I suspect that is a hugely powerful tool to have in the locker and would benefit a lot more people than they might appreciate.

 

If it is a neurophysiological cause, i.e. myoclonus jerks or involuntary twitches then removing the cause might not be possible, but operant conditioning, or instrumental learning, may help to prevent that under certain conditions, a bit like stammer management techniques. Obviously dependent on how severe the underlying condition is.

[Orangeclay]

Liz ,thank you!

 

From a shotgun coaching prospective, do you know autors( coaches)that wrote books about how to diagnose and cure trigger freeze, produced by all kind of causes??

 

I am interested in the practical solution of the cure used in UK

 

Thanks!

[ehb102]

Liz ,thank you!

 

From a shotgun coaching prospective, do you know autors( coaches)that wrote books about how to diagnose and cure trigger freeze, produced by all kind of causes??

 

I am interested in the practical solution of the cure used in UK

 

Thanks!

Sorry, nothing I've found. Phil Coley is sponsoring some research but everything I've come across has been about how to avoid triggering the kind of traumatic memory I have talked about. Release triggers and are shot routines and so on.

[Westward]

Hi Liz

 

Another possible derailment but does your field of work overlap at all with neuroplasticity? I'm wondering if a flinch could sometimes be trained out by reprogramming neurons rather than by de-layering the subconcious.

 

(Just another interested amateur)

[ehb102]

does your field of work overlap at all with neuroplasticity? I'm wondering if a flinch could sometimes be trained out by reprogramming neurons rather than by de-layering the subconcious.

 

That is a theoretical possibility that is above my pay grade! Neuroplasticity is a concept I like, but as to what actually happens at the physical level I don't know.

[Orangeclay]

How is the UK law regarding the relelase trigger? It is allowed and what are the restrictions?

[100milesaway]

Certainly in a cpsa competion I believe it is marked on your card and the refs are advised. There is a vet from Norfolk/Suffolk area who has completely transformed his scores using one.. from Auntie.

Edited March 29, 2015 by 100milesaway

[Orangeclay]

Here is an other question;

 

How many of you get cure after you encountered trigger freeze combined with flinch ??

 

Please share your experience.

 

Thank you!

[Orangeclay]

I read that Phil Coley did a study on flinching,2011, Do you know where I can find the conclusions of that study??

 

Please post the link !

 

Thank you.,

[ehb102]

If anyone has mental trigger flinch and wants to have a shot at getting rid of it I reckon I can help. I'm on maternity leave this year but would put myself out for someone prepared to give working with me on this a shot. Should be a one day thing, and most of that is contingency time.

 

People from PW were very nice to me when my chokes were stolen, so I'll give this one back. PM me if you're interested.

 

Mental trigger flinch is basically a past experience sparked into rerunning. Address the root memory and you deal with the problem. Most "cures" are spark avoidance. It's the same method I use to cure PTSD. It works no matter how small the problem.

 

Just a note to say that this offer is now closed. It was taken up by someone who I believe has put a great deal into the PigeonWatch community, so it just shows that what goes around comes around. So far we seem to have had full success. I am guaranteeing my work so if the fix doesn't hold I am offering repair so to speak - which is as good as John Lewis will give you! I hope that when my client is confident this a permanent fix they will be happy to put their name to a testimonial.

 

I am still on maternity leave but will be back to work in 2016 should anyone need my services in fixing trigger flinch, sporting mental issues or indeed anything non-shooting related.

 

I used all my PW chokes today BTW, on skeet and DTL. I think of you all fondly every time I change them :-)

[welshwarrior]

Well done sounds as if we will be hearing from the suffer soon!

 

Nice to know there are some techi fixes when coaches can't get you sorted.

 

As your on maternity leave have details for John Lewis if others need help, try google but only found a department store 😇

[STOTTO]

If you are like me ,it is your brain which won't allow you to pull the trigger.Sometimes I have three or four goes before finally getting the gun to fire. My flinching I know is pretty extreem and is caused by the bodys fear of recoil,which I don't actually feel but obviously my brain does.I have tried lots of lighter cartridges but then I suffer from a lack of confidence in the light loads, which again I know is a load of old tosh. Rock and a hard spot for me.The old buzzard has almost had her day but I still love the sport so what the heck... from Auntie.

 

Have you watched the, ‘King’s Speech’? Try headphones with loud music when you shoot, what’s to lose??

Deceive the body by fooling the mind!

[Salopian]

Most trigger flinch issues are caused by a psychological disorder bought about by years of subjecting the body to excessive recoil.

The work that Phil Coley published was written by myself some years ago . Although he undertook to research it further I have not seen any results.

To successfully effect a cure we first need to investigate the history and cause.

Release Triggers will NOT effect a cure for flinching , but they will allow you to continue in your sport.

As the above post alludes to, if you use ear defenders and pipe in music or other distraction devices it will assist in effectively helping the ailment.

[Scully]

 

Just a note to say that this offer is now closed. It was taken up by someone who I believe has put a great deal into the PigeonWatch community, so it just shows that what goes around comes around. So far we seem to have had full success. I am guaranteeing my work so if the fix doesn't hold I am offering repair so to speak - which is as good as John Lewis will give you! I hope that when my client is confident this a permanent fix they will be happy to put their name to a testimonial.

 

I am still on maternity leave but will be back to work in 2016 should anyone need my services in fixing trigger flinch, sporting mental issues or indeed anything non-shooting related.

 

I used all my PW chokes today BTW, on skeet and DTL. I think of you all fondly every time I change them :-)

Fabulous work and good for you.

Personally I just squeeze my eyes tight shut 'til the problem goes away.

[bakerboy]

It might be interesting if salopian and ehb102 could get together.

 

I know both parties and I am sure this could be a positive move, it most certainly would be interesting.

 

I would be willing to babysit if that would help

[Shropshire_Lad]

I suffer from a flinch/tense what ever you want to call it when using my 12 Bore Beretta EVO with 28 grm cartridges. Sometimes not at all at other times I will get three or four in a round of a 100 sporting. In May this year I bought a 20 bore Browning 725 , the trigger on this one is amazing, crisp release but on the Beretta there is a little creep. However I shoot 24 grm Cartridges through the 20 bore and have not had one single flinch with it. Very frustrating as 12 bore cartridges are a lot cheaper, this weekend will try and shoot some light loads through the 12 and see if that stops the flinch or if it is trigger related.