Gordon R Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 That aspect is covered in the video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 A car broke down. In the car were a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer and a software engineer. The mechanical engineer declared the problem was in the gearbox. The electrical engineer reckoned it must be in the ignition system. The software engineer said. "Lets all get out and get back in again". That aspect is covered in the video. Haven't watched it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eon Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 A friend of mine was told the same thing at the Midland game fair by a BASC instructor, I couldn't believe that someone (and someone in the know at that!) would talk such drivel! Compare a shotgun shot with a golfer hitting a drive.... The golfers follow through is doing very little to the ball as it's already off from the initial impact but the follow through must be completed for the shot to be any good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buze Posted January 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 To an engineer understanding the concept of how it works allows him to fix the problem of why it doesn’t, rather than use trial and error alone and perversely this can be a core objective in its own right, ask any reloader! Oh I do shoot an enjoy too, it's great fun -- it's just that I have a lot of time to think about it between sessions :-) And yes, introspection etc DO work, it's a lot more efficient way to learn than blind practice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 The spread of the shot at 40yrds is about 50-60 times the size of the charge leaving the barrel so, combined with the length of the shot string, the affect of the speed of the swing may be emphasized/accentuated perhaps. The moving plate pattern would be the most telling test. Ah ok, with you now Although intuition may cause you to believe that it could/should the speed of the swing really makes no difference at all to the pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 A moving pattern plate could, in theory, show a horizontal spread but it would have to be moving at a similar velocity as the shot to be substantial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 It would also depend on which way it was moving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 Yes, I meant perpendicular to the direction of the shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 A big spinning disc would work, if you knew the speed of rotation and the velocity of the shot at the point of impact then you could work out the length of the shot string, providing of course that you knew where the shot pattern started and finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bb Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 A car broke down. In the car were a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer and a software engineer. The mechanical engineer declared the problem was in the gearbox. The electrical engineer reckoned it must be in the ignition system. The software engineer said. "Lets all get out and get back in again". The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?" The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?" The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?" The graduate with a Sociology degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 I suppose firing at a flat area of water while swinging across it might be interesting if the hit could be filmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 I suppose firing at a flat area of water while swinging across it might be interesting if the hit could be filmed. Watch the posted video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjjack Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Engineers Eh!?!?! (I am one!!) We have established that shot will leave the barrel (for a 1000f/s cartridge) in approximatly 0.00008s!!!! IF you swing your barrels at 20f/s (at the ends) this would equate to the barrel ends moving 0.5mm in the above time People are going to say 0.5mm at the barrel would equate to 500mm at the target but this is extremes.... 20f/s is EXTREMELY fast swing... I would hazard a guess that the normal swing speed at the barrel ends would be 3/4ft/s and this would equate to 0.08mm barrel movement (less than the thickness of a piece of paper!!!!) This theory of shot "Strings" is utter *****cks! The movement of the barrels is negligible and does not affect the shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 As I side note and nothing to do with gun speed but the subject of moving pattern plates and shot string length, I remember reading an article about a Major Burrard in the 1920's shooting at a pattern plate that was on the side of a truck travelling 40 mph at a right angle to the shooter. It did move the pattern centre up to 5 inches at 40 yards. Others have since replicated the experiment in modern times with modern techniques and done a bit more work on it. The outcome was the length of shot string played no meaningful part in breaking targets. The difference in speed between target and shot means the target would have only moved a few inches before the whole string (even if it is a few feet long) would have passed any intercept point. 99% of time the shot hits the target rather than the target hitting the middle or tail end of the shot string (obviously the clay hitting the shot scenario can happen, just it’s a fluke rather than the normal way of hitting a target) . I have actually heard a few people go on about the length of the shot string helping with crossing targets, but unless you are constantly missing by a few inches at 40 yards I wouldn’t worry about it and even then a shot gun cartridge is not that consistent for it to help much to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 There is a mine of information available in The Modern Shotgun by Major Burrard, The Gun, W W Greener, The Art & Science of Shotgun Shooting by Brister. But sufficient to say that barrel swinging does not effect pattern placement.Also tight chokes DO NOT lengthen shot string. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buze Posted January 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 As the OP on this, I'd like to thank everyone for all the helpful comments and references, this is great stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 just as a footnote in the early 1900's some weathy lord hired a train and covered the box cars with paper and got the train to run at 60miles/hr whilst he shot at it.....he was trying to work out the shape of the "shot cloud" and other things...............so you are not the first person to ponder such thoughts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westward Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 This has been a topic on and off for years. It's sometimes called 'hosing' because it's supposed to emulate the stream from a hose being spread horizontally along the side of a car. Most 14 year olds, at least when I was at school, could show in 5 minutes using simple arithmetic that no human could move a gun fast enough to have any measurable effect on the pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 As I side note and nothing to do with gun speed but the subject of moving pattern plates and shot string length, I remember reading an article about a Major Burrard in the 1920's shooting at a pattern plate that was on the side of a truck travelling 40 mph at a right angle to the shooter. It did move the pattern centre up to 5 inches at 40 yards. Others have since replicated the experiment in modern times with modern techniques and done a bit more work on it. The outcome was the length of shot string played no meaningful part in breaking targets. The difference in speed between target and shot means the target would have only moved a few inches before the whole string (even if it is a few feet long) would have passed any intercept point. 99% of time the shot hits the target rather than the target hitting the middle or tail end of the shot string (obviously the clay hitting the shot scenario can happen, just it’s a fluke rather than the normal way of hitting a target) . I have actually heard a few people go on about the length of the shot string helping with crossing targets, but unless you are constantly missing by a few inches at 40 yards I wouldn’t worry about it and even then a shot gun cartridge is not that consistent for it to help much to worry about. Some believe that the story goes something along the lines that if one places the pattern slightly too far forward of the travelling clay (as opposed to slightly too far back which would admittedly be bad news since no clay can reverse itself into pellets) that the trailing pellets within the shot cloud would have a decent chance of head butting the clay. Like all good but invalid and flawed theories this seems pretty logical and plausible, the fact that one or two world clay shooting champions as well as shooting writers/experts have often supported this falsehood hasn't helped. Every few years or so some shooting coach writes an article for a shooting magazine and proudly mentions this as gospel followed the following month by one or two letters correcting his garbage. The point is quite easy to grasp if a) you accept that the clay travels a mere 2-3 inches from first pellet to last b) there is just as much chance of it moving OUT OF THE WAY of a hit as there is in HEAD BUTTING a hit Ask any experienced clay shooter and he'll tell you he misses at least as many clays in front as he does behind, the better ones in fact have a habit of missing in front most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Most 14 year olds, at least when I was at school, could show in 5 minutes using simple arithmetic that no human could move a gun fast enough to have any measurable effect on the pattern.I did that on the first page. I'm not 14 though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Hi Not a scientist or into quantum physics 😊 And this is just a thought Theory If you believe it happens and because of this Practical application you swing your gun a bit faster to make it happen Effect or consequence And you hit the target 😋 Does it matter ? Most shooting is in your head 😋 A good coach may tell you things to help you not the next person in the line that's eavesdropping These things 30 inch pattern 8foot shot string can all be used loosely to explain how the gun works and give a bit of confidence to a novice and sometimes bending physics a bit can help hit a target or two Just a thought All the best Of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 I doubt that any coach would say something they didn't believe and as hamster has said some have gone into print saying it where everyone who reads it is the intended person so no eavesdropping. If a coach needs to get a pupil in front of a target, then pick up points using your eyes to do the hard work rather than the gun, hold points, getting the gun moving so it's not static as the target reaches the hold point and a whole host of other things is what a good coach would use. Telling them about a mythical shot string that stops you ever being too far in front might work in getting a novice to hit the odd extra clay. However once the novice starts to be comfortable with adding lead he or she will start to miss in front if they believe the shot string theory. So if it's a white lie or they genuinely believe it I wouldn't consider them a good coach by using it as an example. Just my opinion on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted January 21, 2016 Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 OF there is a lot of truth in the saying "what works for you is the right thing for you". If people believe that they can spray a pattern or that a long shot string is their friend then more power to their elbow. A friend of mine improved his shooting when it was explained to him that the shot cloud is more akin to a cigar than a dinner plate, whatever clicked in his head worked. The physics of what happens makes no difference to him, he hits more now and that's all that counts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted January 21, 2016 Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 You should note that I included the words 'might' and 'perhaps', deliberately in my previous posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7daysinaweek Posted January 21, 2016 Report Share Posted January 21, 2016 The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?" The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?" The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?" The graduate with a Sociology degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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