What to do?

[Scully]

Reading through various threads regarding the widely differing lengths of time it takes various licensing authorities to administer, grant, renew or vary applications I was wondering what the PW collective feel should be done, if indeed they feel we should do anything.

There are instances of times varying from a very rare one week to the more commonly and disgusting six months and in one case there is a PW'er who has been waiting since last June!

It is clear that contacting our shooting organisations is about as effective as contacting licensing authorities, and with an increase in cost of certificates pending but no improvement in services, what are our options?

 

[buze]

I'm new to this -- but aren't a few MP's also shooters? I'd imagine writing to your MP is mostly the only 'solution', and hope he/she is not anti-gun.

 

But ultimately, we are a tiny minority; unless we get some very visible people making noise, it's unlikely to get any better...

[grrclark]

Scully, I have been thinking along similar lines after reading quite a few things on here and on various Facebook groups and giving some thought to what could/should be done.

 

Stating the absolute obvious it is desperately difficult to influence change when the game is stacked against you, but if we don't try then nothing will happen at all.

 

Without making excuses for the shootings organisations I do wonder if they are limited in what they can do because the individuals involved are not making formal complaints to the police directly and just venting off on social media or to the shooting org's. Unless those affected are actually making a formal complaint then I believe it is too easy for the police to file things away in the 'noisy irritation' category instead of 'action required'.

 

Likewise if the shooting org's lobby the government it is all too easy for the government to reply with stat's saying only tiny percentage of complainants based on total number of applications processed.

 

The shooting org's cannot complain on our behalf, likewise you or I cannot complain on behalf of someone else, we can only encourage them to do so and help in that process. I would like to see much more from all the shooting org's with information to help, let people know what the channels are to lodge a complaint, give people a standard letter template that they can use that is is not inflammatory or provocative so denying any excuse for the Police to discard or exploit the complaint.

 

They also need to give lots of reassurance about not fearing a reaction, I think people genuinely don't want to complain because they read forums such as this where far too often there is a narrative that says "don't rock the boat", "the police look for any excuse to deny", etc. We can very much influence that message by stopping being apologists for the Police out of fear.

 

We also know that many complain on forums and give a very skewed version of the truth in a misguided attempt to validate their own opinion and that isn't helpful.

 

We are entitled to complain if a reasonable service is not provided, but that means we also need to set appropriate expectations; i think it is silly to get bent out of shape over a 3 week wait, but absolutely should be bent out of shape over a 30 week wait.

 

Speaking for myself I am perfectly happy to fight my own corner and don't really look to organisations or other bodies to do that for me, but I am confident in my abilities and freely admit that I can be arrogant in that respect, I absolutely believe in the maxim of don't be afraid to challenge an expert in their own backyard. I think that you are probably similar in that respect.

 

I also recognise that very many don't have that mindset and they need help, encouragement and support to stick their head above the parapet. I think the org's are selling their members short in that respect as they don't make it easy enough; I think there is also a lack of visible success by the org's in making a difference so there is potentially a lack of trust or confidence in their members in respect to how much they can do.

 

Again we read so many comments on PW that highlight exactly that last point.

 

So after that ramble what can we do as individuals and forum members?

 

Perhaps a dedicated thread or section on PW where these types of issues can be discussed and recorded, that way we may get a more accurate feel for the scale of the problem. (Are we mistaken in that the problem is smaller than we think it is?)

 

In that thread we have well informed, knowledgeable and constructive advice and not the comment of surrender monkeys or the all too predictable sideways attacks on the org's. (sorry to any surrender monkey's I may have offended)

 

We can provide template's of credible letters or emails that can be used to complain, perhaps supported by the various org's based on the input of their expert resource.

 

We provide addresses and contact details for each of the respective licensing authorities where complaints can and should be lodged, Chief Constable, PCC, MP, etc.

 

We celebrate the success stories of those that do make formal complaint so folks can be confident to stick their head above the parapet.

 

 

I can and would understand if Teal is not comfortable with that sort of thing on the forum, it really isn't what PW is all about, but if some of the fears voiced by many on here are true then perhaps it is what it will increasingly become.

Edited January 23, 2016 by grrclark

[malkiserow]

Reading through various threads regarding the widely differing lengths of time it takes various licensing authorities to administer, grant, renew or vary applications I was wondering what the PW collective feel should be done, if indeed they feel we should do anything.

There are instances of times varying from a very rare one week to the more commonly and disgusting six months and in one case there is a PW'er who has been waiting since last June!

It is clear that contacting our shooting organisations is about as effective as contacting licensing authorities, and with an increase in cost of certificates pending but no improvement in services, what are our options?

 

 

I've also just got mine back from last June ....

[Andy135]

Great post grrclark. +1 to your suggestion of a "how to complain sensibly" sticky.

[CharlieT]

As FELWG have stated that FLM's should issue S7 permits to those whose renewal is not completed within 8 weeks, we can therefore use the 8 week rule as a basis for an acceptable timeframe. If we accept that an initial application for grant will take a little longer, say another 4 weeks, then we can, quite fairly, assume that any force that exceeds 12 weeks for grant and 8 weeks for renewal is under performing and that their licensing customers are not getting the service they should expect.

 

I think it is imperative that anyone whose application exceeds these times:-

 

Makes their shooting organization aware, so they can build up a picture and take those underperforming forces to task.

Complain to their Licensing manager in a polite but firm manner.

Inform their PCC of their forces underperformance and ask for his intervention and comments.

Ask their MP to inquire of the CC as to why his force is providing their customers with poor service.

 

It may also be beneficial if everyone who received poor service were to write personally to CC Andy Marsh (Hampshire) FELWG Chair and soon to be CC of A&S and to Graham Widdecombe, the Home Office representative on FELWG, informing them of the shoddy service they are receiving from their particular force.

 

It's no good accepting poor service and moaning about it on social media, we (shooters) will only receive an improved service if those who receive poor service complain.

[welsh1]

Why not have a national league published.have a points system for the length of time taken for renewals and new issues,and then show it in a league form.I am sure there are a few authorities out there that at the very least will not like seeing their names at the bottom of the pile.

[Hamish99]

Truth be told they Don, t care how long we have to wait.I have called them emailed them contacted my shooting organisation nothing changes . It,s just one excuse after another.

 

I personnelly have been waiting 197 days for my SGC grant . I have now decided to write a letter to the chief inspector, to complain .

 

I will keep you updated.

 

Cheers

Hamish

[Rupert]

Firearms is undermanned=long or unreasonable waits and delays,Across the various forums new starters are abundant=more work for firearms departments,increasingly stiff and complex legislature=more work for firearms departments. So we need more staff? This costs so would we the shooting community fund this, with fee increases.

 

My own view is the current SGC fee is ridiculously good value.(viewed in comparison to other essential membership fees from previous hobbies.)

[Livefast123]

If people have had a bad service then the only way to improve service is to complain to the Chief Constable and the PCC so that that they are aware of any issues and it is formally recorded as a complaint. Departments can sit on noisy emails and phone calls all day but when the number of formal complaints at the Chief's office start rising then excrement only travels one way.

 

I am lucky that I have a reasonably effective licencing authority and would consider giving up if I had to wait a rediculous time frame with each interaction.

 

Lets not forget that the Government decided that guns should be a licensable item, apparently for the protection of the public. Therefore it is only right that if they choose to restrict something that the public purse should pay the majority of the cost. The Government could easily create an online licencing system with instant variations and renewals for which I would be prepared to pay a little more, however the current system suits their needs by frustrating shooters

Edited January 24, 2016 by Livefast123

[grrclark]

Firearms is undermanned=long or unreasonable waits and delays,Across the various forums new starters are abundant=more work for firearms departments,increasingly stiff and complex legislature=more work for firearms departments. So we need more staff? This costs so would we the shooting community fund this, with fee increases.

 

My own view is the current SGC fee is ridiculously good value.(viewed in comparison to other essential membership fees from previous hobbies.)

Rupert, agree that the current cost is good value, but do you think that the level of service received at that cost is acceptable?

[ChrisAsh]

We could ask our shooting organisation to Under the "freedom of information act" request the home office to list the waiting times for gun licences suues and renuwals over say the last six months listed for all constabularies, and do the same every six months and publish the figures in the organisations news letters

 

That way knowing they were being monitored by the home office we may get action

[bluesj]

There is a few things that would need to be taken into account when looking a waiting time the main one would be the number of grants etc that each force is dealing with.

Having one or two people saying they have been waiting umpteen weeks for a grant or renewal doesn't mean the force is under preforming. There may be a very good reason for the delay!

I do think that a system that is the same throughout the country is needed and one that is not open to interpretation by the various police forces.

As for my force they seam to be doing a good job, My last renewal was about a month if i remember correctly and a variation took just a few days. Maybe Sussex firearms department should be put in charge of some of the others to help get things in order.

[Rupert]

Rupert, agree that the current cost is good value, but do you think that the level of service received at that cost is acceptable?

My renewal took 5 weeks(west yorks) so from me yes. I would pay more in fees to improve the service overall.

[nighteye]

I was 10-10 1/2 months for a grant .

Granted I do have a neurological disability, BUT both my referees and my doctor green lighted and whole heartedly supported my application.

There were other issues , but , I did speak at length to the FEO for about two hours .

But a kick in the **** off a year , should have been quicker than that IMHO .

[fortune]

There are a lot of waywood ideas about all of this. Firstly the licence is an invention of the government to keep control of the masses who if get unhappy might come banging on the door of government. this goes right back to after the first world war when the troops who had been used as cannon fodder were supposed to return to a land fit for heros. The government didnt want a body of trained men with guns having rebelion. If the government want to increase fees they should find the money. They can soon find money for any project that takes their fancy or give it away to foreign countries such as India that has a nuclear capability and a space rocket program. Second, our sport is a hobby, the police and the government don't give a monkeys whether we have to wait and are inconvenienced. Third the orgs know full well what is happening and are doing diddly squat about it. They shouldn't have to wait to be told by the likes of us about setting up a league table or templates of complaints letters. They should have already done it months ago. The main thing is that unless the firearms departments are breaking a law nothing can be done. All they can do is to keep grinding away at the piles of applications with the resources that they've got. The orgs like to portray that they have a seat at the table and are taken notice of. If this were the case you would still be able to have handguns and we wouldn't have this mess now. Police forces wouldn't be able to make it up as they go along I along with thousands went and marched in demonstration in London. They really took notice of that and still banned foxhunting along with the handguns and five shot autos and autoloading rifles. The staff along with the feos that are dealing with the applications are civilian and on Friday afternoon pack up about four o'clock. If they wanted the backlog cleared they would put more resources into it get in earlier and work later and weekends also same as any other company would when job needs to be completed. I bet prince Charles doesn't have to wait a year and badger the department about the whereabouts of his cert. I really do blame the orgs for this situation because they promote themselves as the umbrella that serves the members interests and it is patently obvious that they are falling well short. Meanwhile stay calm and make sure that you are well stocked up with ammunition and have friends that will support you.

[grrclark]

I shall lodge an FOI request with the various Police forces/licensing authorities and see what sort of information we can find out, these things can take quite a bit of time so best not to hold our breath whilst waiting

[fortune]

try Kent, because they've got a serious problem and a bit of an attitude thing as well. A bloke that I know who has an application in, was told that he should think himself lucky that he had been issued with a section 7. And that if they decided to get shirty about it he could be told that he would have to lodge his toys with an RFD pending renewal. when ever that might be. They are over loaded and eventually certs will be issued. I just stay calm and wait. there is no option. Someone mentioned how quick Sussex are. But son in law was told to apply for X and then told that he would have to go on a firearms awareness course costing £125 which it turned out to be offered by a bloke with a horticulture or tree certificate or something and approved by basc. just another hoop grin and nod your head.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Let's get the research done and a letter written for people to use, far better than sitting back and letting the poor service continue.

 

 

 

We, as holders of FACs and SGCs, are some of the most law abiding citizens because we have so much to lose, we collectively deserve far better treatment!

[Salopian]

If you send your gun for repair and your certificate expires whilst it is being repaired . Then what do you do?

It is not okay for your Constabulary to say " It will be alright don't worry."

Your Gunsmith would be returning a firearm to an unlicensed person !

[David BASC]

We and the licencing authorities knew 2015 was going to be a busy year as its the peak of the 5 year cycle. That's why we were putting our advice from August 2014 on this very issue. Sadly the backlog has not cleared so it seems

Based on feedback from members who get in contact we are targeting the worst offending constabularies to bring as much pressure as possible for them to improve their service.

We are offering help to members in the context of letter writing, and yes it is important that shooters who are getting a poor service do complain, if they do not then the senior officers challenge us when we tell them there is a problem, they simply say -'where is your evidence because we have no complaints on file?'

We do not currently go down the 'standard letter' approach but want to work with members on a case by case basis, to make the complaint as detailed and personalized as possible, never the less we have pot guidance on our web site that when complaining about poor turn around times the letter should include:

• Supply the date you submitted your renewal application and the date your certificate(s) expired.
  
• Request the immediate renewal of the certificates or the issue of a Section 7 permit to prevent you from possessing firearms without a valid certificate.
  
• Politely advise that if a Section 7 permit is not issued then you will be obliged to consider submitting a formal complaint.
  
• Request details of the complaints procedure
  

Following this would not compromise BASC or the shooter, indeed it would do no harm at all if when writing shooters mentioned the fact that had obtained this guidance from BASC.

Working together we have more chance of cracking this issue

More info here: http://basc.org.uk/firearms/certificate-renewals-2015/

David

[CharlieT]

If you send your gun for repair and your certificate expires whilst it is being repaired . Then what do you do?

It is not okay for your Constabulary to say " It will be alright don't worry."

Your Gunsmith would be returning a firearm to an unlicensed person !

 

Then your gunsmith would be breaking the law for allowing an ulicensed person to take possession of a firearm.

However if you were to leave it with him, in safe storage, until you were in possession of a valid SGC then all would be well.

[Scully]

Some really good positive suggestions from PW'ers gents. I am currently awaiting a response from my shooting organisation as to what advice they can give.

Meanwhile, until an effective method of complaint is established it is imperative that individuals contact their licensing authorities, especially if after eight weeks, as Charlie T has suggested, they have not been issued with a S7 permit. I would suggest that if a request for a permit is met with reluctance, it should be stated by the applicant that they then have no choice but to submit in writing, via recorded delivery, giving full details of dates etc and any previous contact, a formal letter of complaint on the advice of your shooting organisation.

This not only adds a little weight, but also absolves you the applicant of being regarded as a trouble maker. We can do this, all it takes is the will.

We may not resolve anything, but isn't it better than sitting back and doing nothing?

My coterminous tickets are up for renewal towards the back end, so it will be interesting to see what happens in the meantime.

[David BASC]

exactly! common front, common objective.

 

David

[pull2007]

licence expires in 7 days been in since november police visit straight away cheque cashed at once no sign of it rang up last week said waiting to be signed off ?