Junior doctors weekend hospital death rates!

[panoma1]

It seem now that new research shows there is no increase in patient death rates in hospital over the weekend compared to that on weekdays!

So it appears the government has again used statistics to prove what they wanted proven rather than the truth? Once again proving the phrase "There are lies, damn lies and statistics"

[Lloyd90]

I thought we knew this from the beginning ?

 

The doctors were certainly quoting that the highest day of death in hospital was a Wednesday weeks ago.

 

Once again we find out those with a personal agenda use their power for backhand deals and illegitimate means, it's a sad state of affairs!

[Psyxologos]

This was always the case. The highest death risk in hospitals is, for some reason on Wednesdays. Plus, the way hunt has defined 'weekend' is from Friday until Monday. Go figure...

[keg]

The stats were examined by a team at Oxford but based just on strokes.

[BRYAN3]

I think that ill people tend not to be admitted on fridays for operations over the weekend,so probably more deaths at home weekends.

[AVB]

I believe the stats were that you more likely to die on a Wednesday and also more likely to die within 30 days of being admitted at the weekend.

 

I believe the later stat is skewed by more critically ill people being admitted as a percentage of fewer people being admitted at a weekend.

 

I am not sure I have explained that well.

[toontastic]

Or as the doctor on TV said more people don't die on a weekend, but you are more likely to die if admitted on a weekend.

She also said the new shift patterns were discriminatory against women as covering weekends would deprive them of family time.

[keg]

But it's ok for men to lose it? Does she want sexual equality or not?

[Vince Green]

That's only because the hospitals send so many patients home on a Friday that that the patient population drops massively over the weekend. In my mums ward about six weeks ago there were only four or five patients in over the weekend out of about twenty odd beds. And it was an acute ward so serious illnesses.

During that weekend the hospital was like a ghost town.

[BrowningB525]

 

She also said the new shift patterns were discriminatory against women as covering weekends would deprive them of family time.

That's equality. Not discrimination.

[Mark74]

Or as the doctor on TV said more people don't die on a weekend, but you are more likely to die if admitted on a weekend.

She also said the new shift patterns were discriminatory against women as covering weekends would deprive them of family time.

The contract states that changes to pay, conditions and rostering "may have an adverse effect on women". Partly due to more weekend work (which will see pay cut) but also because time off for maternity leave & changes specific to contracts for careers generally filled by women.

In fact Government itself has said that the adverse affect the contract will have on women 'is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate end' make of that what you will.

[kent]

Or as the doctor on TV said more people don't die on a weekend, but you are more likely to die if admitted on a weekend.

She also said the new shift patterns were discriminatory against women as covering weekends would deprive them of family time.

What's different if she was a man? Or are women entitled to more family time? Think that's sexism being used both ways

[team tractor]

I've got an appointment Friday :( the 13th lol.

[norfolk dumpling]

Although I voted for this lot Hunt (with an 'H') seems to be a weak link and very good at distorting the truth. I've heard/read several article on weekend death rates and cannot believe he has continued with this lie. After the EU Referendum DC should have a re-shuffle and give Hunt the tea boy job.

[Psyxologos]

Although I voted for this lot Hunt (with an 'H') seems to be a weak link and very good at distorting the truth. I've heard/read several article on weekend death rates and cannot believe he has continued with this lie. After the EU Referendum DC should have a re-shuffle and give Hunt the tea boy job.

 

Was hunt (with a 'c') not involved in the B Sky B scandal? All that happened to him was lay low for a while and then resurface to try and sell another part of the nation's wealth...

[Vince Green]

The point about the weekend death rate is that hospitals are on shutdown over the weekend. Doctors don't do the rounds so changes in a patient condition go undetected. The strike is about Saturday pay rates and that's all. The rest of the stuff is just self justification because they don't want to be seen to be just striking over pay

Edited May 13, 2016 by Vince Green

[norfolk dumpling]

No VG the w/e death rates are due to other factors including how they count the deaths ie w/e includes Friday and Monday. Also many critically ill get to hospital at the w/e having felt poorly during the week - this is particularly true of elderly who don't want to bother their working family. There are other factors which Hunt ignored. Lies, lies and statistics!

[Psyxologos]

The point about the weekend death rate is that hospitals are on shutdown over the weekend. Doctors don't do the rounds so changes in a patient condition go undetected. The strike is about Saturday pay rates and that's all. The rest of the stuff is just self justification because they don't want to be seen to be just striking over pay

 

You have NO idea what you are talking about.

[Houseplant]

 

You have NO idea what you are talking about.

 

I think that is a fair comment.

[Bangbangman]

I think that is a fair comment.

Yup.

[Vince Green]

You have NO idea what you are talking about.

I think I do, the doctors are demonstrating world class arrogance and very little else of substance. If they had got agreement on their demands for Saturday pay rates none of this would have happened. So where would their so called high principles have been then? They have demonstrated they can be bought and sold, they just couldn't agree on a price. The rest is waffle. They don't care about the patients they just care about their pay, but they can't say that can they? Edited May 14, 2016 by Vince Green

[Psyxologos]

I think I do, the doctors are demonstrating world class arrogance and very little else of substance. If they had got agreement on their demands for Saturday pay rates none of this would have happened. So where would their so called high principles have been then? They have demonstrated they can be bought and sold, they just couldn't agree on a price. The rest is waffle. They don't care about the patients they just care about their pay, but they can't say that can they?

 

I do not know what motivates and feeds your spite, be it envy or something else, but you still have NO idea what you are talking about. Educate yourself on the facts before you comment on something that you clearly do not understand. It has been put plain and simple here, not only by me. just have a look what norfolk dumpling wrote. It is the core of the issue which, I will say it again, you do not understand and by insisting on spreading that rubbish you are not making yourself any favours.

 

 

No VG the w/e death rates are due to other factors including how they count the deaths ie w/e includes Friday and Monday. Also many critically ill get to hospital at the w/e having felt poorly during the week - this is particularly true of elderly who don't want to bother their working family. There are other factors which Hunt ignored. Lies, lies and statistics!

[Vince Green]

I do not know what motivates and feeds your spite, be it envy or something else, but you still have NO idea what you are talking about. Educate yourself on the facts before you comment on something that you clearly do not understand. It has been put plain and simple here, not only by me. just have a look what norfolk dumpling wrote. It is the core of the issue which, I will say it again, you do not understand and by insisting on spreading that rubbish you are not making yourself any favours.

Firstly, what have I got to be envious about? You don't know anything about me.

 

Secondly, I simply feel that you and your kind are guilty of great duplicity. I will state my reason again. If the doctors had gained agreement on the Saturday pay rates they would have accepted it, happily agreed to the new contract, and none of this discussion would have ever taken place. That is the truth as I see it. That is the key fact

 

Starting all these discussions and strikes, after the pay claim was rejected, saying its about the future of the NHS etc. is not principle its pique. You cannot invoke principles after the event that you failed to invoke before the event.

 

The doctors were clearly prepared to disregard these principles for more pay, the pique only arose because they didn't get it.

 

So whether or not the death rates are higher, lower or same is a smokescreen. Its not primary its a secondary discussion after the event. It was the rejection of the Saturday pay rate that was pivotal to the strike.

 

I'm surprised you cannot see it for yourself. When the train drivers trot out many of the same arguments about the train service (24 hour service in their case) nobody takes them seriously, they are ridiculed, but because its 'the doctors' and about 'the NHS' are we supposed to suspend credulity?

 

I don't doubt the NHS is in chaos and badly in need of reform but to my eyes the doctors are behaving like Luddites opposing the reforms that are so badly needed. That's not spite on my part, its also not rubbish. Negotiation involves great skill, weaving a path through the issues to achieve what you want while letting your opponents feel they also got what they wanted.

 

Its not about table thumping and making demands. Reading between the lines the BMA negotiating team need to go on a few more courses and not tweet inflammatory comments while the discussions were still under way. Their negotiation skills were bordering on non existent.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Vince Green

[Mark74]

I don't doubt the NHS is in chaos and badly in need of reform but to my eyes the doctors are behaving like Luddites opposing the reforms that are so badly needed.

Regardless of pay, reasons for strike, etc what reforms are they opposing that are badly needed?

I can only assume that you are talking about the introduction of 24/7 NHS.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but no country has a 24/7 healthcare system that you & Mr Hunt are proposing- they have s 24/7 emergency care system which we already have.

If they are being Luddites by opposing an introduction of 24/7 healthcare system that Mr Hunt wants to impose then so be it. Everyone is aware that the Government have not allowed funds for this or costed it in any way plus have no idea how the staffing rotas are to be worked.

As there will be no additional Dr's & clinical staff hired to cover the extra days/shifts it's therefore basic maths that with the same amount of people working more days will be working more hours (either that or "regular" working days will have services/personnel levels cut). My wife now covers 25-50% more beds now than 6 years ago (& yes she works weekends) so the system is at breaking point trying to maintain the current services.

A 24/7 NHS would be a fantastic goal, but it needs to be planned properly rather than this current bodge job to get safe staffing levels, which means filling many of the 50,000 vacancies currently in NHS & increasing the budget to pay for it, but that won't happen as the NHS is dying under this Government - I refer you to Health & Social Care Act.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Mark74

[Vince Green]

Regardless of pay, reasons for strike, etc what reforms are they opposing that are badly needed?

I can only assume that you are talking about the introduction of 24/7 NHS.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but no country has a 24/7 healthcare system that you & Mr Hunt are proposing- they have s 24/7 emergency care system which we already have.

If they are being Luddites by opposing an introduction of 24/7 healthcare system that Mr Hunt wants to impose then so be it. Everyone is aware that the Government have not allowed funds for this or costed it in any way plus have no idea how the staffing rotas are to be worked.

As there will be no additional Dr's & clinical staff hired to cover the extra days/shifts it's therefore basic maths that with the same amount of people working more days will be working more hours (either that or "regular" working days will have services/personnel levels cut). My wife now covers 25-50% more beds now than 6 years ago (& yes she works weekends) so the system is at breaking point trying to maintain the current services.

A 24/7 NHS would be a fantastic goal, but it needs to be planned properly rather than this current bodge job to get safe staffing levels, which means filling many of the 50,000 vacancies currently in NHS & increasing the budget to pay for it, but that won't happen as the NHS is dying under this Government - I refer you to Health & Social Care Act.

I don't disagree with a single word you have written, I just fail to see how the doctors throwing their toys out of the pram and going on strike is productive. Neither does shouting down people with a different point of view by saying "you don't know what you are talking about".

 

The NHS is a business, it has to be run as a business, to do that you need a plan and stick to it. Doctors may be good at what they do but its clear they are very unworldly when it comes to the economics of the real world.

 

Clearly as you say things are at breaking point but that's a reality and its not going to go away, I don't think blaming the government is the answer. Just because they are not throwing money at everything doesn't make them wrong. The waste (and fraud?) in the NHS is eye watering. Health tourism in my part of London is well known about. I could go on but it won't change the stand off.

 

Everywhere else in the world people have to pay for healthcare, some places are subsidised but I find the idea of bottomless free treatment for everybody to be a bit strange in this age. OK when they just lanced boils and plastered fractures but with the complexity of treatment today?