Best way to improve?

[iano]

 

How did you decide to extrapolate this? I shoot my 200-300 every other week-end when I'm in wales. It's not the frequency, it's the volume that matters. Frequency is good, but volume is also important, it's like weightlifting.

 

Practice makes permanent!

 

when I was doing regular rifle training, training would be broken down into regular but short sessions, working on trigger, balance, shot routine etc etc

Trying to do the lot in one go doesn't work for me. I need to do something, assimilate the learning from the outcome, then repeat. The assimilation bit takes time away from the range (in my case)

Edited July 20, 2016 by iano

[oldfarmer]

Buze,

Your idea of shooting 300 cartridges in a session intrigues me. I see lots of different people each week practicing their clay shooting and having lessons. To do it justice you have to be able to 'focus' and 'concentrate' to the exclusion of all else. From practical observation I would suggest that after 100 shots your mental alertness starts to fade.

I certainly subscribe to the theory that once you have established a style and system that breaks a particular target you need to reinforce the mental picture by shooting it consistently several times to consolidate that image. However I don't think that most people - no matter how much weight lifting and mental exercise they do - will maintain maximum performance over 300 targets in a session. The only time I have shot 300+ cartridges in a day has been on simulated days and I know that by the end or the day I am certainly not as sharp as I was at the start.

As I own a shooting ground perhaps I shouldn't be questioning your ideas but encouraging more - and the more the better - to follow in your footsteps - particularly around the South Worcester area!!

What do others think?

John

[welshwarrior]

John

 

I agree 100-150 in an hour or 2 seems to be most people's limit of concertration and after that the law of deminishing returns takes over.

 

However over the World Sporting at Chruchill I was lucky enough to spend some time with members of Team USA for a round week most where able to preform and practise in a positive way for around 250 cartridges in an afternoon. I believe this is where professional v amateurs takes over. Other nations teams did not manage the same.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Quality is far more important that quantity!

[johnphilip]

going back a few years, I was with a group of guys that traveled around shooting sporting and fitasc, we shot most weekends around the country, I went to Sealand one midweek afternoon with a lad that worked for me and a slab of cartridges, went on the skeet range target by target, gun down ISU style with the lad deciding the delay, shot the slab, the following weekend the remarks from the other shooters on the way I was shooting and the improvement in my score, proved to me the benefit of skeet for practice,

thing that lets me down is my mind games, just wish I could turn thinking off and just shoot

 

Try singing to yourself

[buze]

I still don't understand how people expect to be good on 100 targets when not training well over that amount. I asked, a while back, about people's /real/ training, and my post got zero replies, so I just made my own up!

 

The 'training' and practice sessions for example at A&C Sport and EJ Churchill involved just doing the same thing as you do, with a 'score' etc. I really don't see how you can learn to get better by shooting 50 birds. I can understand that it's good 'practice' if you are already a good shot and use it as a brushup, but that's not like that that you will /improve/ -- unless it takes 10 years.

 

The idea I go after when I shoot 300 is to go over the 'breaking point', like when doing long distance running. There is a phase after that point where you are no longer tired, don't think about it and reach your best performance. The idea of the sessions is to know, recognize that phase and be able to reach that quicker.

 

So when people say that it's hard to concentrate over 100 birds, it's true, but the idea is /not to have to concentrate as hard/ -- and it's a state of mind that is fleeting and I know I reach it on some occasions where I shoot /massively/ better. Just needs the practice to get there. And I'm not speaking of a couple round of skeet or the 50 odd birds..

[Sian]

I too shoot a massive amount mainly because I love it so much and 300/400 on a Saturday is normal for me. 2 shoots sometimes 3 if possible on a Sunday is every weekend and during the week the odd 100 reg shoot or sneaky day off work at my local ground I will shoot 300. I can categorically state this has improved my shooting hugely.

[buze]

I too shoot a massive amount mainly because I love it so much and 300/400 on a Saturday is normal for me. 2 shoots sometimes 3 if possible on a Sunday is every weekend and during the week the odd 100 reg shoot or sneaky day off work at my local ground I will shoot 300. I can categorically state this has improved my shooting hugely.

Ah, I knew /someone/ must be taking this sport seriously ;-) I wish I could shoot a bit more, but I only have access to my 'training ground' (Mid Wales) every other week-end. But, sometime I shoot 300+ on the friday, and 300 more on the saturday with my wife.

 

Do you just 'shoot' or do you have a bit of a routine? Here I try to do a couple of rounds of plain skeet by myself, then work every station/birds and try to break 10 in a row (same bird). Sometime I also move a couple of steps in front of the station to get used to a faster bird or wind.

I also sometime go and do a 100 or so sporting in the middle, and then go back to the skeet and practice some more.

 

It's reasonably easy to see when it's too much, but I always try to push a little bit at that point anyway as it's the 'critical' phase; I find that it's at that point that I make correctable mistakes, like footing or sloppy gun mount. I find it's important to know how you /will/ go wrong.

 

And yes, I think my shooting has improved massively since I started doing that. I still lack consistency, and I have a tendency to 'take it for granted' and miss birds like that, but I'm working on it...

[iano]

I still don't understand how people expect to be good on 100 targets when not training well over that amount. I asked, a while back, about people's /real/ training, and my post got zero replies, so I just made my own up!

 

The 'training' and practice sessions for example at A&C Sport and EJ Churchill involved just doing the same thing as you do, with a 'score' etc. I really don't see how you can learn to get better by shooting 50 birds. I can understand that it's good 'practice' if you are already a good shot and use it as a brushup, but that's not like that that you will /improve/ -- unless it takes 10 years.

 

The idea I go after when I shoot 300 is to go over the 'breaking point', like when doing long distance running. There is a phase after that point where you are no longer tired, don't think about it and reach your best performance. The idea of the sessions is to know, recognize that phase and be able to reach that quicker.

 

So when people say that it's hard to concentrate over 100 birds, it's true, but the idea is /not to have to concentrate as hard/ -- and it's a state of mind that is fleeting and I know I reach it on some occasions where I shoot /massively/ better. Just needs the practice to get there. And I'm not speaking of a couple round of skeet or the 50 odd birds..

 

Shooting more than what you will in a competition is training, but is training for stamina.

 

Rifle shooting (where stamina is less of an issue but still a big factor), I would have practice matches on a regular enough basis in training (once or twice per month).

However, my scores are mainly driven by my ability to nail every time:

-trigger control,

-sight control,

-Balance / zero

-shot reset

-shot routine

-overhold / underhold

-followthrough

-mental control

 

Shooting for three hours won't help any of the above, but a focused 20 minute training session on trigger control and giving myself the time to assimilate the learnings from that will have a big impact on my score.

 

Break what you are doing into constituent categories, then break those down into the constitute parts, work on those parts and perfect each part. Much easier said than done.

 

When I'm coaching, I'll only tell beginners to spend longish time on the range as thye need to build up the muscle and muscle memory of the gun. Once they get that, its down to the technical parts

Edited July 21, 2016 by iano

[dougall]

I wouldn't start anyone off with ML on driven however it is a very useful tool for more advanced shots and under certain circumstances ie short window high driven or some of the super fast big stuff off the top of the RBSS tower sequence

agreed ML has to be used on RBSS tower sequence,but that is because majority are more crossers than driven and for ML on the straight driven that is more'' a guess in front'' than ML..well would be with my eyes(cant see round barrel)..and those extreme height/distance birds are more about reading the line (well is for me).I also think that those that feel they shoot ML all the time actually don't but with a certain level of experience you know the kind of lead picture needed and shove that lead on in a mixture of ways....Anyhow a fella hitting 18/50 ain't reading the targets well enough to shove the lead on upfront...and I would think any coach would wind him back to have his pick up related to the target line.ML is for olympic skeet all the time and sporting some of the time.....

[Sian]

Buze it's a bit of both. I will shoot Skeet, DTL, 3 compak layouts and Fitasc layouts. All for a variety of reasons and I use my club to try out shooting in different ways, slower or faster, practise gun down and shooting birds in a consistent way. I use Skeet to be more consistent and to learn to not give up when you lose targets because I know on sporting I sometimes look at a poor few stands scores and I can't find the will to dig in and give the rest my all. Skeet makes me do that. DTL is for relaxation and again to try to dig in and keep going when you miss one or two.

 

Today was a good example I was shooting Owls Lodge and got a 2/10 and two 4/10 which did my head in so I had to try to find the will to give a poop and managed to get a 70/100. Still not there on the mental side, it costs me dearly sometimes.

[buze]

Ah! Sian, that's the story of my life at the minute. Here's what I shot earlier at EJ Churchill. I was on a good day, shooting confidently, and in fact asking for the birds as sim pairs. Ok not fantastically hard birds, but good, fun.

 

Then on the last stand, the trap broke down for a while after the first two, and my concentration was /gone/. I paused, try to reset my view after dropping four, and basically i was screwed. They weren't even terribly difficult, but the state of mind I was in on the previous stands was gone.

 

[Sian]

Buzz, I find it difficult when you get a series of no birds when if I've been hitting them - resetting can be trying!

[bornfree]

You can look "through" the gun (ie your off eye being aware of the bird under the barrel) on driven or teal targets if shooting both eyes open.

Nothing to do with cross dominance, in fact it will only be successful if you have zero pull from our off eye.

 

that must be how i shoot them.iam only an average shot 80% and i dont shoot teal any better than anyone else, but driven is an absolute banker stand for me high, low, fast or slow, out infront,or overhead . i can keep the gun infront and measure the lead.

[bisondan]

If anyone wants to improve then go and see the Ed(master) Solomons.

 

Ive seen him 3 times over the last 15 months and I've gone from no CPSA class to pushing for AA in the next cut-off.

[bornfree]

If anyone wants to improve then go and see the Ed(master) Solomons.

 

Ive seen him 3 times over the last 15 months and I've gone from no CPSA class to pushing for AA in the next cut-off.

i'am regularly being told that i've got no class. i must give Ed a try to see if he can lift my social standing.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Ah! Sian, that's the story of my life at the minute. Here's what I shot earlier at EJ Churchill. I was on a good day, shooting confidently, and in fact asking for the birds as sim pairs. Ok not fantastically hard birds, but good, fun.

 

Then on the last stand, the trap broke down for a while after the first two, and my concentration was /gone/. I paused, try to reset my view after dropping four, and basically i was screwed. They weren't even terribly difficult, but the state of mind I was in on the previous stands was gone.

 

 

 

Why do you shoot under the name Michelle?

[Glenlivet]

 

 

Why do you shoot under the name Michelle?

He's French......it's his name. Also coule be Italian, Michele is a boy's name. Edited July 23, 2016 by Glenlivet

[buze]

He's French......it's his name. Also coule be Italian, Michele is a boy's name.

Thanks Glenlivet I'm indeed french, and my proper first name is Michel. I mostly gave up in trying to get people to spell it right after 18 years in the UK. These days I rely on the fact that anyone seeing me are unlikely to mistake me for a girl ;-)

[wymberley]

Surprised no one has mentioned it as it is a common occurrence. Excluding lessons, one way to immediately improve is not to keep shooting at whatever it is you're missing in the same fashion.

[iano]

Surprised no one has mentioned it as it is a common occurrence. Excluding lessons, one way to immediately improve is not to keep shooting at whatever it is you're missing in the same fashion.

 

As I mentioned earlier, practice makes permanent

[Shadowchaser]

Surprised no one has mentioned it as it is a common occurrence. Excluding lessons, one way to immediately improve is not to keep shooting at whatever it is you're missing in the same fashion.

I went shooting on Sunday with a view not to use ML unless there was no other choice. I scored 32/50. A vast improvement on last week.

[wymberley]

 

As I mentioned earlier, practice makes permanent

Yep, if you keep practicing the same wrong thing, the result will definitely be permanent.

[wymberley]

I went shooting on Sunday with a view not to use ML unless there was no other choice. I scored 32/50. A vast improvement on last week.

Good for you.

What i was getting at was no matter what system one uses, if you persist in taking 'the same point of aim', as it were, ie, amount of lead or other variable and missing there can only be one possible result.

Edited July 26, 2016 by wymberley

[Shadowchaser]

Good for you.

What i was getting at was no matter what system one uses, if you persist in taking 'the same point of aim', as it were, ie, amount of lead or other variable and missing there can only be one possible result.

I know what you mean. Cheers.