darrenj Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 Hi Newbie here. I know that this topic has been discussed here a lot, but I have a slightly different scenario I think. I have a few acres of land and also some woodland, my friend has a SGC and I have asked him to come and shoot some vermin for me. He has spare guns and said that I can come and shoot under his supervision, but from what I have read this may not be the case in law. although saying that I have not found anything about my situation. Is there anyone out there that may have come across this before? I know if I was the SGC holder I can supervise someone on my land, but being the land owner and inviting someone to shoot on my land does not seem to have the same authority in law, is this so and is there any way I can overcome this. Many thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazzashadow Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 as far as I know he can shoot your land with your permission and so can you under his supervision. but you might need your own insurance I`m sure there will be some more people answer in a mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 (edited) Teechnically, it's a funny bit of the law. The relevant part of the law is in the Home Office guidance, 6.18, which references Section 11 (5) of the Firearms Act. Under that legislation, the occupier of the land ONLY can lend a shotgun to another person, and it may be used 'in the occupier's presence'. However, it has been recommended that 'occupier' should mean any person who has any right to hunt, shoot, take game or fish on the land (this isn't specified in the legislation, and has never been tested in a courtroom, as far as I know) So you grant him a permission (preferably in writing, dated and signed). He then is, for the terms of the law, an 'occupier', and can take you out with him and lend you a shotgun. Edited July 18, 2016 by robbiep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 (edited) As above,I believe that he would be able to loan you a shotgun whilst in his presence and that means what it says, not you 300yrds away at the other end ofthe wood. Within visible and audible range. Common sense tells that if a neighbour or local called police and one turned up ...probably a dozen and a helicopter, when we have none to turn out to a burglary ... if you were not within touch so to speak, then I think your friend might not be taking his guns home. Edited July 18, 2016 by Walker570 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 Teechnically, it's a funny bit of the law. The relevant part of the law is in the Home Office guidance, 6.18, which references Section 11 (5) of the Firearms Act. Under that legislation, the occupier of the land ONLY can lend a shotgun to another person, and it may be used 'in the occupier's presence'. However, it has been recommended that 'occupier' should mean any person who has any right to hunt, shoot, take game or fish on the land (this isn't specified in the legislation, and has never been tested in a courtroom, as far as I know) So you grant him a permission (preferably in writing, dated and signed). He then is, for the terms of the law, an 'occupier', and can take you out with him and lend you a shotgun. I'll take issue with your last paragraph Robbie. Giving someone permission to shoot does not make them an occupier. An occupier is someone who has legal control of the land and as such would be subject to occupiers liability. Your statement above is correct, " that 'occupier' should mean any person who has any right to hunt, shoot, take game or fish". However, we must remember that a right cannot be taken away. Hence the term shooting rights as opposed to shooting permission. Shooting rights are a tradable commodity and can be sold or leased, permission can't and can be withdrawn at a moments notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJW Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 My understanding is that you don't need a SGC to use a shotgun on game or clays as long as there is someone with you who has SGC in supervision. I don't see why this would change if it is your own land you are shooting on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 It's the law I'm afraid. As Robbiep said in post #3, see section 11 (5) & (6) of the Firearms Act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesj Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 Unfortunately firearms law is a bit of a mess and I think most of it has not been tested in the courts so no one can say for sure, the way I would read your situation I would say you are good to go but I'm no expert. (I've found out things week that I would have said are not right) You could get your mate to send his feo an email then you well have written evidence (if he gives the ok) should the boys in blue turn up unless there is a reason that you are prohibited from having a fire arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospero Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 I have done this, been on someone else's land (with permission) and had a mate with me under my supervision using a shottie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 I have done this, been on someone else's land (with permission) and had a mate with me under my supervision using a shottie. And technically, you've been in breach of the law while doing so. As CharlieT pointed out in reply to my comment last night, 'permission to shoot' does not equal 'shooting rights', and the part of the law that allows this requires you to have 'shooting rights' rather than just 'permission to shoot' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenj Posted July 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 Thanks for your comments, but it is as I thought, unless I am prepared to lease over shooting rights I cannot use his gun on my land with supervision. It seems a strange law, I think I read somewhere that the BASC are trying to simplify the wording, I see if I can find that section again and I'll put it up. Can I lease shooting rights for a few days or weeks ? or is that just to simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenj Posted July 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 Unfortunately firearms law is a bit of a mess and I think most of it has not been tested in the courts so no one can say for sure, the way I would read your situation I would say you are good to go but I'm no expert. (I've found out things week that I would have said are not right) You could get your mate to send his feo an email then you well have written evidence (if he gives the ok) should the boys in blue turn up unless there is a reason that you are prohibited from having a fire arm. Hi bluesj I have no reason that would prohibit me from a firearm, it just that I'm not that into guns but wouldnt mind learning and the best way to learn is via someone who knows what they're doing. Maybe I should just apply for a SGC, but all the hassle, cabinets etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulnix Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 Thanks for your comments, but it is as I thought, unless I am prepared to lease over shooting rights I cannot use his gun on my land with supervision. It seems a strange law, I think I read somewhere that the BASC are trying to simplify the wording, I see if I can find that section again and I'll put it up. Can I lease shooting rights for a few days or weeks ? or is that just to simple. You can lease shooting rights however you wish for however long and whatever price you wish, I imagine there is even templates on the net for such things, simplest way in this case would be a rolling lease where he pays £1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimfire4969 Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 First i would apply for your own license. Then I would go shooting with your mate and just take one gun, just make sure in the unlikely event of the plod turning up he is the one holding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 To avoid any possible confusion, why not think about getting your own SGC. You can then borrow a gun albeit within the legal parameters for which on a daily basis there are none provided the gun is returned after shooting unless you can provide the correct storage facility. You could even buy some cartridges to thank him for his trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenj Posted July 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 just going off topic a bit, who is the best insurer for gun usage on private land? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 just going off topic a bit, who is the best insurer for gun usage on private land? Any of the recognised shooting organisations provide adequate insurance - not to mention other benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 You can lease shooting rights however you wish for however long and whatever price you wish, I imagine there is even templates on the net for such things, simplest way in this case would be a rolling lease where he pays £1. Yes, one could do so quite easily. Just one point to remember though. Being the legal occupier comes responsibilities, as an example an occupier has a legal responsibility for the well being of visitors to the land be they invited or not. For this example's sake, if an uninvited trespasser is injured they can sue the occupier, hence occupiers take out occupier's liability insurance. They are, of course, responsible for many other things as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 darrenj Apart from the legal side of things what experience do you have with guns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenj Posted July 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 Hi Old'un A Bit, both my parents were FAC holders, so I grew up around allsorts of guns from .22 to 45's 357's , shot guns, black powder, I used to help reload. When I was younger I was very keen hunter with air rifles and to this day still have an air rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) My understanding is that you don't need a SGC to use a shotgun on game or clays as long as there is someone with you who has SGC in supervision. I don't see why this would change if it is your own land you are shooting on? Careful re the clays if that is at a clay ground then they are likely to hold a section 11 excemption that allows unlicensed individuals to use a shotgun provided they are not banned in law from using a firearm like say somebody with a prison sentence. I would join one of the shooting organisation and seek advice to be certain. Rb Edited July 19, 2016 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 now you own the land, if you had a sgc, and your mate did not, then you could lend him your gun and that will be ok.because you own the land.and he would be your servent, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 now you own the land, if you had a sgc, and your mate did not, then you could lend him your gun and that will be ok.because you own the land.and he would be your servent, Unlike rifles, there is no servant dispensation for shotguns. Infact, what the servant bit means is that a servant of the occupier, who has an estate rifle on his FAC can let a guest use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospero Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 If that's the case, what about when I have taken my mates clay shooting? Am I breaking the law then too?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 If that's the case, what about when I have taken my mates clay shooting? Am I breaking the law then too?? It depends : at a proper clay ground with a S.11 exemption ? On a piece of land you own, or have the shooting rights to ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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