Daveo26 Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 I've been reloading for my .22 Hornet for a good few months now. Initially I was using Winchester brass to good effect. After a good few reloads I've replaced the brass with unfired sellier and bellot I was surprised to find I could only fit 11.6 gr of lil gun in the case as opposed to 13 grains in the Winchester brass. So I'm loading 35 grain V-Max over 11.6 grains of LiL gun, OAL is so they just fit in the mag 1.741" Accuracy is good enough at 1" at 100 yards. However in all the fired cases (18 so far) the the primers protrude a few thou....... To the point where I can't get them to fit in the shell holder on my lee press to deprime them. Why is this? What causes it? Should I reduce the powder charge? Is it a pressure sign? Cheers Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rem708 Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 I could make numerous comments but lets first have a picture of the fired cases with raised primers please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveo26 Posted April 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 I can't I've deprimed them. I also shot the last of my Winchester cased reloads and they are normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rem708 Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 Well I'm afraid you have lost the most important piece of diagnostic help I can give. One comment - you are setting COL by magazine length - VERY BAD gauge of bullet depth!!! If you are pushing the bullet into the rifling then there are two things that can happen. Firstly it takes more energy to get the bullet moving which causes peak over pressure. Secondly if the barrel is tight you could be pushing the bullet back into the case! This can also generate a higher peak pressure. This potentially excessive pressure could be the cause of primers lifting in their pockets (although I would have thought you would have metal flow into the firing pin hole!) If nothing else learned - get pictures first :yes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 I only say this having spoken to the guy who makes Lil' Gun who told me not to compress it. A gentle squeeze, yes, but no kernel crunching. I use Winchester cases and can't get in more than 12.6g (fire formed) when following his advice. Wouldn't want to anyway as before I spoke to him I found that with any more there was no appreciable increase in velocity and accuracy went to pot. If you're looking for flat out, then H110 is the better option for anything below the 40g mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveo26 Posted April 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 11.6gr in the S&B brass is just, just a compressed load. Certainly no crunching. The Winchester brass held more and was not a compressed load. Rem708 I have 2 left, i could shoot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 daveo, The S&B brass is a lot thicker than Win brass. That's why you've dropped capacity. check the primer pockets for two things. First, measure the depth at the center. Then measure it at the edge of the pocket. Compare vs the win fired brass. I seem to remember that the S&B brass either has a smaller cup depth or the corners have a different radius and the primers don't seat as far. A quick micrometer check will tell you. rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliveward Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 Daveo26, It would be a pressure sign if the primers were flattening or cratering. I've not heard of much success with the S&B brass in the Hornet. The most common complaint is the flash hole being too small, along with the reduced capacity. The reduced capacity (thicker wall of the case) may be the root problem. There isn't enough pressure to stretch the case back to the bolt face, but enough pressure to get the primer there. Cheers Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddler Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 Primer pocket dimension factors, as opposed to pressure. Measure the pocket diameter. May be slightly larger than American brass, just enough that US made primers are not as snug a fit as European primers...hence they're bscking out. Hsve you tried other powders? 2400 is supposed to be good for the Hornet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveo26 Posted April 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 This is fantastic stuff fellas, thanks a lot On inspection the primer pockets are are very different indeed. They measure 0.122" on the Winchester 0.111" on the S&B Plus the pockets are bevelled. Although it's not a big difference on paper they look different depths by eye Iv now acquired 100 new Remington brass the pockets seem the same as the Winchester brass. There seems to be no ill effects from what's happening I'm tempted to load the S&B and just use them once so it's not a complete waste of money? Or should I just suck it up and bin them? I've not tried another powder, I've been pleased with lil guns performance so far. Plus I've got half a tub left Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 Either there is too much pressure or the primer pocket dimensions don't match the primer that you are using. It would be useful to run the rounds over a chronograph to see what speed they are achieving. Just as a temporary measure to get the primer out of the pocket you could put the case base on a metal nut or similar and fill the case with water. Then find a piece of rod with a reasonable fit in the case mouth. A reasonable smack with a mallet/hammer and the primer will be hydrauliced out of the pocket and you will be able to have a fresh start. Is the bolt difficult to open once you have fired the round? Consider a different powder. Just be thoughtful because what is happening isn't right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveo26 Posted April 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 No resistance in the bolt and the primers were not flattened at all. The only odd thing was the primers sticking out slightly. Iv seen pressure signs in this gun before when developing the last batch of Winchester brassed rounds. This didn't seem like that. I de primed all the brass using a lee precision de primer that cam with the lee loader kit but thanks for the suggestion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted April 18, 2017 Report Share Posted April 18, 2017 For the primer to protrude from the pocket there must be a big headspace issue with those new cases. Now that they are fire formed to your chamber the issue with the primers might not happen now. It's something that I have never seen before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 reduce the powder and use pistol primers, there a little shallower but burn a little hotter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_b_wales Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 reduce the powder and use pistol primers, there a little shallower but burn a little hotter. I use small pistol primers when I reload. This was recommended to me by the person I bought the rifle/dies off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 I use small pistol primers when I reload. This was recommended to me by the person I bought the rifle/dies off. I use them when subsonic loading the 308. just gives me a better flash over with lower powered amounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy RV Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 I've got this with my hornet and Winchester brass. PPU factory is fine though? I was thinking not enough pressure to set the case back against the bolt face. I've only tried upto 12gr of lilgun so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scobydog Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Hi, I don't re load but my hornet does not shoot at all well with S&B, it is fine with PPU though, sorry can't be of any more help. S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 reduce the powder and use pistol primers, there a little shallower but burn a little hotter. I don't understand how using a shallower pistol primer has got anything to do with the fact that the primer is protruding after firing. The primer has got to have a space to move into. If the primer was so loose in the pocket then it might blow out but when the pressure on the case pushed backwards in recoil the primer would get rammed back into the pocket but to do this the case must be like a willie in a bucket in the chamber. When I have experienced high pressure the primer is well flattened out, flush with the base and has lost the roundness on the shoulder of the primer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 I don't understand how using a shallower pistol primer has got anything to do with the fact that the primer is protruding after firing. The primer has got to have a space to move into. If the primer was so loose in the pocket then it might blow out but when the pressure on the case pushed backwards in recoil the primer would get rammed back into the pocket but to do this the case must be like a willie in a bucket in the chamber. When I have experienced high pressure the primer is well flattened out, flush with the base and has lost the roundness on the shoulder of the primer because s+b primer pockets are shallower than other brass and the larger primer cup of the rifle primer is being rolled on the shoulder into the pocket, once you fire the round the primer wants to straighten back out and it stays out. with the shallower and softer small pistol primer it has room to move with out coming out of the pocket. flattened out primers are not the olny sign of over pressure. some primers are harder with thicker cup walls so you need to understand more of pressure signs. plenty articals out there on the net to show other and more reliable tells. i'll see if i can find a photo of an issue i have just had with a rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 just looked and i must have deleted it. basically the primer in a cz .222 was hanging out the back end of the case by a long way. new winchester brass. any bullet. below a start load. if i tried to get up to mid way on the charge the primer was flowing over the head stamp. it was a rebarrel and came with the proof house stamps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveo26 Posted April 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 Well I've loaded some Remington brass tonight. they look much better, also they look to have a similar powder capacity to Winchester 12 grains of lil gun is not compressed I could go to 12.6 before it's starts to compress. I'll try them tomorrow fingers crossed it's just the brass playing up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 It's an interesting situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveo26 Posted April 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 Cured......must have been primer pocket dimensions I shot 16 of the Remington today not a hint of protrusion Iv settled on 12 grains of lil gun behind a 35grain V-Max seems to shoot well I think if more people gave this little calibre ago instead of "proper" centrefires they would be pleasantly surprised It's such a sweet shooting round, modern bullets and powders have given it a second lease of life I'm my humble opinion. I'm tempted by a .17 hornet though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toxo Posted April 21, 2017 Report Share Posted April 21, 2017 Have just bought a CZ 527 in 17 Hornet flavour and yesterday fired my very first reloads ever. Not looking for max anything. Just an accurate, quiet load for up to around 200yds, primarily for rabbits and the occasional fox. After reading the advice to not go near the Hodgedon max I put 8.9/9.0/9.1 Lilgun behind a 20gr Vmax with Fiocchi small rifle primers in Hornady cases and was pleased with the results. Until I finally make up my mind about a scope I've got a small Hawke on it and the crosshairs took up most of the target at 150yds. Even so results were good and I was even inside an inch off quad sticks at 125yds. Can't wait to get all the ducks in a row with the right load and a good scope. For me this caliber opens the door to daytime bunny bashing which is too much like hard work with the 22lr hence most of my shooting is done at night at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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