Johnnythefridge Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 Hi there folks, I was considering dusting the cobwebs off the reloading press. What are the advantages of using hot primers ? does it save money on propellant, or what ? Best Regards, John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 Not really save money, Some loads call for them and some of these loads utilize them to try and maintain the performance in cold conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted July 8, 2017 Report Share Posted July 8, 2017 Match the primers to the propellant ! What press are you using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted July 8, 2017 Report Share Posted July 8, 2017 Using a magnum primer where it is not needed can raise your guns pressures considerably and to be honest the deer/fox/ cape buffalo will not notice the difference . Check your reloading manual/s and adhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 8, 2017 Report Share Posted July 8, 2017 Published data is the way to a safe and balanced load, only use a particular primer when it specifies one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 if you don't load millions or can't proof your load then stick with what's on the manual a change migth be needed when using a load (that performs well in warm condition) to a very cold condition; but in the interest of safety; might just be better to increase the powder by 0.05 g cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsonicnat Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 Puts the pressure up using hot primers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sako7mm Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 No offence intended, but it may be safer for the OP to leave the cobwebs on the press if he needs to ask questions like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 No offence intended, but it may be safer for the OP to leave the cobwebs on the press if he needs to ask questions like this. +1 Ball powder usually calls for mag primers. But then again not in all case's. As in case, brass case. Your manuals are your saviour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 people need to learn, and you learn by asking questions; As the old saying goes, there is no such a thing as a stupid question; beside cockiness or taking things for granted is a very bad mistake like: using old manuals as gospel! there's no point in trying to play down an honest person with a genuine doubt without providing physical data. Powders change from batch to batch and so do primers! Using a 1998 manual with 2016 components or a 2016 primer with a 1998 recipe .... isn't a smart (or great) choice and you better ask (although you might sound silly) what the new trend is rather than finding yourself with some dodgy cartridge in our chambers ... Primers are split into 3 categories: weak, medium and hot There are 3 main producers in Europe: Fiocchi, Cheddite & Martignoni/NSI with Maxam/Rio coming recently From weak to Hot the list goes like that Fiocchi 614 Cheddite CX50 NSI 684 Fiocchi 615 NSI 686 Cheedite CX1000 Fiocchi 616 NSI 688 Cheedite CX2000 Rio G-1000 and all other .209 primers It is not unknown for CX1000 to be as strong as CX2000 or for Fiocchi 616 to be as weak as 615 hence why you should always test your load any time you change components batch Also, every powder can be tuned to suit every primer, the problem isn't strictly -or mainly- related to pressure, it also affect speed and pattern. There is no point in having a load which might be safe but throw a sparse patter just for the sake of using an hotter primer ... I load a Tecna Magnum shell in 20 bore: 20/76 CX1000 1,35 x 33 #3 which has been proofed and returned: PMax- 768 bar and V2.5-390 m/s Now, if i wanted to change to CX2000 i could use a 1,23g-1,28g powder; have similar PMax, most likely less speed and a pattern that won't be of any use for the purpose of this shell and, to be safe, i'll need to proof it too Is it worth to go through so much hassle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx10mike Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 hi john ,it is quiet common to use magnum primers and more often that not in certain calibre guys swear by them for lower extreme spread / better accuracy.providing your working up to a load using them there is no harm at all.if you where on about just switching to them on an already hot load i could understand some of the harsh comments.reloading manuals are priceless when starting out but i wager most loads used in competition would be considered very hot.i personally see no point chasing speed as rain or temperature change can tip a load over the edge.start low ,work safe and enjoy pal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Scotland Posted July 16, 2017 Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 Yes you are right people coming on here to post are asking for help and advice . There is no such thing as a stupid question just stupid answers quote start low work up low and you will be fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted July 16, 2017 Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 (edited) This might be of interest to the OP. http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm SHOTSHELL PRIMER SUBSTITUTIONS EFFECTING PATTERNSBy: Tom ArmbrustPosted: 04/29/2007 I wonder if trapshooters who reload their target loads realize how important a role their selected primer plays in regards to both interior ballistics; namely velocity and pressure, plus exterior ballistics effecting patterns. Many shooters who reload their own shotshells and want to save a buck buy whatever primer happens to be on sale at that time. Not realizing or knowing about the pitfalls that may arise from their indiscriminate selection. To show the reloader just what can happen with various primer substitutions the following primer comparison tests were carried out at my test facility, Ballistic Research. Under controlled conditions the following reload was selected: Shell: 12 GA 2-3/4" Winchester AA Primer: Various Power: 17 GR IMR 700-X Wad: Greenduster GT 9210-12 Shot: 1 oz 8 Lead Lawrence Magnum First let us look at the velocities obtained from the highest to the lowest regarding the above recipe. (See Table 1) The Federal 209A registered the highest velocity at 1251 FPS with a variation of only 14 FPS on the ten shot test. At the other end of the chart is the Cheddite 209 with the lowest velocity averaging 1217 FPS with a variation of just 20 FPS. It can be seen that the maximum velocity difference between the various primers was 34 FPS. Maximum primer variation between lots was 48 FPS. This velocity change due to primer substitution could for example change your target load from a light to a heavy velocity designation, or vice versa depending on the strength of the primer selected, much depending on all the other reloading components selected. Next let's look at what our primer substitutions did to pressure. Say we had selected the Remington 209 Premier due to its low pressure at 8810 PSI. This would be a soft shooting mild recoil loading. Let's say we ran out of the Remington 209 Premier primers and needed shells for tomorrow night’s league shoot. So we run down to our local sporting goods store finding out they are sold out of the Remington primers. Not too worried as the sales clerk says I have loaded thousands of shotgun shells with the Federal 209A primer with excellent results. As luck would be they are on sale so you feel confident buying them. The next night at the league shoot your mild 16-yard loads seem like they now have a little more punch and you wonder why. Well for one, your velocity increased by 23 FPS, but more importantly the pressure increased by 2050 PSI from a mild to a robust 10860 PSI. Your mild load is now rubbing the upper SAAMI limits of 12 GA 2-3/4 shotshell pressure of 11500 PSI. This is a very substantial pressure gain for a simple primer substitution. TABLE IShotshell Primer ComparisonWinchester 12-Ga. 2-3/4" AA Hull17.0 Grains IMR 700-X PowderGreenduster GT 9210-12 WadOne Ounce No. 8 Lead Shot Primer and Lot Velocity f.p.s. Chamber Pressure p.s.i. Fed. 209A 03513 1251 (EV 14) 10,860 (EV 600) CCI-209M D03C 1248 (EV 22) 10,460 (EV 1300) Win. 209 NFL124 1246 (EV 22) 10,140 (EV 400) Rem. 209STS 1236 (EV 16) 9,740 (EV 2200) FIO-616 1234 (EV 28) 9,690 (EV 1600) CCI-209 B032 1232 (EV 30) 9,650 (EV 2300) Rem. 209P 127 1228 (EV 34) 8,810 (EV 2200) Fed. 209 A8702 1226 (EV 18) 9,070 (EV 900) Win. 209 MDL542 1224 (EV 30) 10,200 (EV 1700) Cheddite 209 1217 (EV 20) 9,270 (EV 2000) Comment: This listing is in the order of highest to lowest velocity. Maximum velocity variation between primer brands was 34 fps, while the maximum pressure variation between primer brands was 2,640psi. The ballistics shown represent average performance for ten rounds with each loading using a 30 inch SAAMI test barrel with a 3 inch chamber and a 0.726 bore with skeet choke. Velocities were measured at 4 feet from the muzzle using an Oehler Model 33 chronograph in conjunction with the Skyscreen III system. Pressures were recorded in pounds per square inch (psi) using a PCB 167A02 piezoelectric transducer in conjunction with a PCB Model 462B52 ballistics charge amplifier and a Model 451A07 digital peak meter. All powder and shot charges were loaded by scale weight using a Denver Instruments Accurate Load III electronic scale. Copyright © 2000 - Tom Armbrust / BALLISTIC RESEARCH Now if you really want your eyes opened concerning this next primer substitution test series let's take a look at Table 2. First, I would like to thank my old friend Wallace Labisky from DAK-TECH Ballistics (1324 Fourth Avenue SE, Aberdeen, SD 57401, phone 605-225-7906) for sharing this important reloading test information with me as follows: Shell: 12 GA 2-3/4" FIOCCHI VIP Plastic High Inside Basewad Primer: Various Power: 21.5 GR Hodgdon International Clays Wad: HAWK Shot: 1 oz 8 lead West Coast Magnum Again the Remington 209 Premier primer shows both the lowest velocity of 1218 FPS and lowest pressure of 7040 LUP. Velocity variation is on the high side at 135 FPS. Yes, I realize in the chart, the CCI-209 Trap and Skeet primer showed the lowest velocity and pressure but it is no longer available to the reloader. If you want one hell bender load, let's try the Federal 209A primer. Velocity increased to a whopping 1331 FPS or an increase of 121 FPS over the CCI-209 Trap and Skeet offering. Pressure also very much increased by 3280 LUP versus the Remington 209 Premier primer. Wow, to say the least! A velocity level of 1331 FPS seems a little brisk for 16-yard clays exceeding the ATA 3 dram velocity limit of 1200 FPS, not to mention the very much increased felt recoil. TABLE IIPrimer/Powder Compatibility Comparison12-Gauge 2-3/4" Handload:Fiocchi VIP plastic target hull (red, high basewad), once firedVarious primers21.5 grains INTERNATIONAL CLAYS (Lot 2703L1592C)HAWK wad (short crush section) 50 Ibs. seating force1 oz. No. 8 West Coast Magnum lead shot (437.5 grs.)8-pt. fold crimpCrimp space: 1/2" Primer and Lot Velocity (fps) Chamber Pressure (LUP) CCI-209TS / F11F 1210 (ES 162) 7,000 (ES 2,300) CCI-109 / F19FF 1233 (ES 131) 7,450 (ES 2,500) CCI-209SC / K19A801B 1278 (ES 60) 8,340 (ES 1,200) CCI-209M / C01NN 1294 (ES 49) 8,690 (ES 1,100) Win. 209 / HAL021 1317 (ES 39) 9,400 (ES 1,400) Fed. 209 / D30FG 1328 (ES 25) 9,940 (ES 1,200) Fed. 209A / 03513 1331 (ES 43) 10,320 (ES 1,600) FIO 615 / 70072135 1266 (ES 102) 7,990 (ES 2,400) FIO 616 / 27076661 1297 (ES 43) 8,940 (ES 1,100) Rem. 209P / 005 1218 (ES 135) 7,040 (ES 2,200) Comment: Test sample consisted of 10 rounds with each primer fired through a 30-inch pressure barrel with a 3-inch chamber and a bore diameter of .725 inch and no choke. The velocities shown are instrumental at 4.5 feet from the muzzle and were measured using an Oehler M-35 Proof chronograph with the Skyscreen III system. Ambient temperature was 75° F. All powder and shot charges were loaded by weight, (not volume). ES = Extreme Spread COPYRIGHT © 2000Wallace Labisky You may ask, why did this second test series show such a larger increase in velocity and pressure levels, as a difference of 121 FPS and 3320 LUP is nothing to disregard to say the least. Hodgdon's International Clays powder has a somewhat slower burn rate, with a more elongated time pressure curve vs. IMR 700-X, all other components being the same. When a more mild force primer is employed behind the slower burn rate propellant, it is changed from a solid into a gas state in a slightly longer time frame then when a more forceful primer is used. This results in higher velocity and pressure due to its quickened and steeper time pressure curve. You will also notice a trend towards more extreme velocity and pressure variations, when using the mild primers behind the slower burn rate propellant. To help relieve this problem of excessive variation, a heavier shot charge payload could be brought into play, namely 1-1/8 oz of shot creating more resistance to the expanding powder gases. In turn, elevating velocity and pressure and shortening the duration of time on the time pressure curve. A competitive AA trapshooter would not want excessive velocity and or pressure variation in his target loads if it can be helped. Keep this in mind the next time you select your combination of reloading components. As both uniform ballistics and pattern results can be adversely affected by indiscriminate component selections. Not to mention the possibility of unsafe pressure levels. Crimps will also affect ballistics. Many active shooters like to apply light, shallow crimps because they believe such closures prolong case life. Other handloaders go to an opposite extreme and crunch crimps deeply, assuming that a heavy crimp will hold more effectively against ignition and early combustion pressures to promote a more complete powder burn. Unfortunately, those extremes tend to be predicted on logic rather than scientific evidence. The real results are more complex. To show what happens with various crimp depths, another test was run in the Hodgdon Ballistic Laboratory using one control reload and different crimp depths. Unless otherwise listed, the data in this text was created using a standard depth of 0.055, which is a bit short of 1/16. However, some manufacturing variations exist in which case handloaders are urged to use a factory equivalent crimp depth for that particular shotshell. The test reload was checked for pressure and velocity at 0.020 increments. The test reload was assembled like this: Shell: Winchester 12 GA 2-3/4” AA CF Primer: Winchester 209 Primer Power: 20.0 Grains of Hodgdon Clays Wad: Winchester WAA12L Shot: 7/8 oz of Lead Shot The resulting ballistic data was as follows: Crimp Depth Velocity (fps) Pressure 0.030" 1,308 f/s 9,300 PSI 0.050" 1,329 f/s 10,500 PSI 0.070" 1,351 f/s 11,900 PSI 0.090" 1,363 f/s 13,100 PSIThe importance of crimp depth, then, should be obvious: crimp depths to either the high or low side of normal will directly impact pressure/velocity results. I would like to thank Ron Reiber of Hodgdon Powder Company (PO Box 2932, Shawnee Mission, KS 66201, phone 800-622-4366) for letting me use this following article and reloading data by "The Master", Don Zutz, from Hodgdon's excellent shotshell data manual pages 30-33. The following charts were created in the Hodgdon ballistics laboratory under controlled conditions. Winchester cases and Winchester wads were used for both the 1-1/8 oz and the 7/8 oz test. Cases were crimped deeper than normal to create the highest pressure possible for a given load. The only component changed for each test was the primer. Powder charges were the same throughout each test. Review the statistics for these two tests, and note the large difference in pressure from the hottest load to the coolest load. This dramatically shows why a reloader should not switch primers without consulting his loading guide. Just changing the quantity of shot, changes the way primers perform. The hottest primer in the 1-1/8 oz test was not the hottest primer in the 7/8 oz test. Imagine changing cases, wads, and even gauges. The combinations are seemingly endless, as are the results. ALWAYS CONSULT YOUR RELOADING GUIDE BEFORE SWITCHING COMPONENTS! 1 1/8 oz. TEST Primer Velocity Pressure Win.AATP 1,176 fps 11,200 PSI Fed.209A 1,172 fps 11,100 PSI Win.209 1,173 fps 10,900 PSI Fio.616 1,171 fps 10,800 PSI CCI209M 1,171 fps 10,400 PSI Rem.209P 1,157 fps 8,500 PSI CCI209 1,162 fps 8,400 PSI 7/8 oz. TEST Primer Velocity Pressure Win.209 1,214 fps 10,300 PSI CCI209M 1,217 fps 10,200 PSI Fed.209A 1,195 fps 9,100 PSI Fio.616 1,196 fps 9,000 PSI Win.AATP 1,191 fps 8,400 PSI Rem.209P 1,187 fps 8,200 PSI CCA209 1,180 fps 7,700 PSIThanks to Downrange Manufacturing LLC (4170 North Gun Powder Circle, Hastings, NE, phone Kevin 402-463-3415, fax 3452) for reintroducing their excellent Versalite wads in both 12 GA and 20 GA offerings after a long absence. Plus their extensive lineup of XL wads, Windjammer replacement wads, pattern control wads, and their DRA direct replacement Winchester wads. This lineup covers trap, skeet, sporting clays and hunting from 7/8 oz to 1-1/4 oz shot charges. High quality virgin plastic, with its very slippery texture, is employed to reduce barrel fouling and to enhance target breaking ability at a competitive price. These wads have shown minimum velocity and pressure variation in tests at my outfit, Ballistic Research, plus high quality pattern results. Their hot colors are sure to catch your eye. To illustrate the pattern variations possible with changes in components, a control reload was selected for use in a Beretta 686 Essential Over and Under with 28 inch barrels. The Beretta modified choke tube was used, and I arbitrarily selected a test range of 35 yards because that's where, in my opinion, modified choke is at its best. The control reload was: Shell: 12 GA 2 3/4" Winchster AA CF Primer: Winchester 209 Power: 18.1 grains of International Clays Wad: Hornady Versalite Shot: 1 1/8 oz Hard 8 Lead Volovity: 1145 FPS Pressure: 8600 LUP Performance wise, a 5 pattern string with the above reload placed an average of 158 pellets in the outer 5-inch ring and 249 in the 20-inch diameter core ring for a total of 407 pellets, again, on the average. But what happens when a subsystem is changed? Will the core density thicken, remain the same, or weaken? Will the outer ring receive more or less pellets, or will it retain the same basic count? And what about the overall density? Would it change as some components were switched? These are important questions, because experts in the field observe changes in downrange effectiveness as total pattern and ring/core densities vary. Patterns with high core counts still have some range effectiveness remaining, since it is the core density that eventually becomes the ring density as air resistance forces the pellets outward. Conversely, patterns with weak cores have already shed much energy into the outer ring and fringe and have therefore reached or passed their point of maximum effectiveness. Thus, while a high outer ring count promises added effective hitting area, it also indicates the end of the line for positive, energy-laden, multiple-hit potential from that particular pattern. The first experiments focused on primer substitutions. This should not be construed as a recommendation for indiscriminate primer switching! It was done here to illustrate how patterns can vary as components change, because handloaders frequently practice primer switching without concern for reload performance. Primer switching can cause chamber pressure to rise beyond industry standard and is, therefore, a safely hazard as well as a cause of potential pattern modification. Moreover, it was done with the control reload because its chamber pressure was quite low. Had the published pressure been closer to the industry's suggested maximum average working pressure of 11,000 LUP or 11,500 PSI, such indiscriminate primer switching would not have been tried. The amassed data from 5 shot tests over 35 yards is compiled in the accompanying chart. Test No. 1 was based solely on primer switching with all reloads holding hard, high-antimony No 8's. Shooting proved that the reload, as published by Hodgdon, was actually the best of the lot; subsystem alternating didn't produce a better performer on an overall basis. It gave an efficiency of 88 percent, on average, and had the heaviest outer ring density. The next best averages, at 82 percent, came from the Remington 209P and CCI 209 standard-force primers, but those two primers had relatively weak outer rings while their core densities were quite heavy. Only the CCI 209 Magnum primer came close to matching the outer ring performance of the Winchester 209 primed test loads, but the CCI 209M also suffered a low-density core. Subsystems Variation Performance Chart Test No. 1:primer substitutions with hard lead No 8 shot Primer Ring 20" Core 30" Circle Percent Winchester 209 158 249 407 88% Federal 209A 125 252 377 81% CC1 209 Standard 131 253 381 82% Remington 209P 130 254 381 82% CCI 209 Magnum 150 220 370 79% Fiocchi 615 127 236 363 78% Test No. 2:primer and chilled shot substitution Primer Ring 20" Core 30" Circle Percent Winchester 209 142 230 372 80% Federal 209A 140 196 336 73% CCI 209 Magnum 132 208 340 74% CCI 209 Standard 137 235 362 78% REmington 209P 135 231 366 79% Fiocchi 615 125 221 346 75%(All values based on average of five patterns per load). As the chart shows, changes in primers produced a wide range of efficiencies and distributions. The efficiencies ran from 88 percent with the W209s to 78 percent by the Fiocchi 615s, a span of ten percentage points. That may not seem significant to a reader, but remember that ten percentage points in shotgunning is equal to about one degree of choke! The same basic primer substitution test was then run with low-antimony chilled shot. Prone to deform, chilled shot almost invariably delivers lower percentages than hard shot. The results are again listed in the appended table as Test No 2. When analyzed, the data clearly shows a density loss for each reload. For example, the control loading with Winchester 209's fell from 88 to 80 percent with only a change in pellet hardness. In general, most of the patterns showed more significant losses in core density than they did in outer ring density. This was probably caused by pellet deformation, because out-of-round shot will spin or flare from the main mass as air resistance is encountered, whereas spherical pellets will remain in the core. Thus, the lower number of pellets remaining spherical account for the lighter core densities, while the outer ring continues to pick up errant, mildly deformed members. An obvious example of this appears when Federal 209As were used with softer chilled shot. This load's outer ring count actually improved as compared to its hard-shot results; however, its core density dropped markedly by an average of 56 pellets as opposed to its performance with hard, high antimony shot. Handloaders who switch indiscriminately, therefore, are given notice that such substitutions can impact patterns as well as chamber pressures and velocities. Both densities and distributions can, and do, change. Luckily, most patterns still contain enough core pellets to produce a hit when the shooter places his 20-inch diameter core properly, but it's a different matter when the outer ring comes into play. Be wise. Check the patterns scientifically. Edited July 16, 2017 by lancer425 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treetop Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 If it's rifle primers .. This is fantastic article:- http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=1471 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted July 20, 2017 Report Share Posted July 20, 2017 Jesus, when I first reloaded I just used a box of CCI Large Rifle Primers, as that's the only ones I could get my hands on. I've no idea if they're hot or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted July 21, 2017 Report Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) Interesting comments, but if correct is the change in pattern density as a result of a change in primer not due to the change in velocity? So to do a proper comparison the powder charge would need to be adjusted to give all test cartridges the same velocity for each primer type being tested. Also five patterns is statistically I would think insufficient to reach a conclusion give the statistical/random nature of a shot pattern. Then their is the question why have chokes, the cartridge manufactures could have a great time, do away with chokes and the humble little primer could be classified as full primer, half primer, skeet primer etc sales of cartridges would rocket as we would now need to buy not just on shot size and load but also on pattern type required. Is it not that the fundamental purpose of the primer is to ignite the propellant and we get different primers (cool to hot) due to the energy require to ignite different powder types, dose weight and temperature the cartridge is mainly used at to deliver efficient burn and consistent ballistics. Super choke, the new cartridge you must buy due to the latest technology in primers we the cartridge manufacture now offer you the 100% pattern with every shot fired every time, so do away with your chokes these technology changing cartridges are available now only £500 per 1000. Happy shooting. Rb Edited July 21, 2017 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 (edited) Sorry RB, as usual i have different views .... Interesting comments, but if correct is the change in pattern density as a result of a change in primer not due to the change in velocity? I would go a change of pressure (which then resultes in a change of speed anyway). the pressure will determine the deformation of the pellets and the ultimate pattern result. Then their is the question why have chokes, the cartridge manufactures could have a great time, do away with chokes and the humble little primer could be classified as full primer, half primer, skeet primer etc sales of cartridges would rocket as we would now need to buy not just on shot size and load but also on pattern type required. Manufacturers require gains on their loads, not beautiful patterns. The use of hot primers (CX2000, G-1000, 616. etc.) coupled with faster than normal powders will generate a lot of revenues which is all it matters (a save of 0.10 g of powder x millions of shells....= £££ in savings and revenue generation)Is it not that the fundamental purpose of the primer is to ignite the propellant and we get different primers (cool to hot) due to the energy require to ignite different powder types, dose weight and temperature the cartridge is mainly used at to deliver efficient burn and consistent ballistics. I think this is a very simplistic way of seeing the matter. Each prime should be chosen based on the load no just shoved it in as its only purpose is to go BANG! in 20 bore, a load with Tecna of 1,40 x 28 will require a CX2000 to perform whilst a load of 1,35 x 33 will require a CX1000 (Fiocchi 615 is better) . So, to answer the above.... no, a primer should not be chosen based on the powder instead should go with the load Super choke, the new cartridge you must buy due to the latest technology in primers we the cartridge manufacture now offer you the 100% pattern with every shot fired every time, so do away with your chokes these technology changing cartridges are available now only £500 per 1000. I know it sounds weird for people in UK used to very little studying and lot of myth trusting in terms of home loading .... but this technology (primers) has been in existance for the best part of the last century and it's not really expensive ... Marketing, on the other hand is very expensive ... but that's what swing the people from one manufacturer to anotehr ...and generates revenues and gains Primers are so little yet so important and no one seems to have a clue what they are and what they're used for .... worrying .... Cheers, Edited July 22, 2017 by Continental Shooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 Sorry RB, as usual i have different views .... :lol Cheers, I think you over think it lol. A shotgun is a scatter gun and cause and effect are very difficult to measure and attribute to any single variable as no two patterns are ever the same. And if my memory is correct who was it that invented the percussion system of igniting propellant? A Scottish vicar. But life is to short to worry about it put the shot in the correct place and any cartridge will work and cip within the EU ensures it does so safety. Rb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted July 22, 2017 Report Share Posted July 22, 2017 I think you over think it lol. A shotgun is a scatter gun and cause and effect are very difficult to measure and attribute to any single variable as no two patterns are ever the same. True! but you can make it as similar as possible. Being this the subject of my thesis ...yes, i did have to (over)think about it That said, nothing in nature (or life) is the same yet doesn't mean we don't think about our actions before doing something Beside, if i didn't think about what i do ... i'd have probably blown a few guns ... the Tecna shell in 20/76 1,35 x 33 returned 900+ bar with a 615; try sticking a CX2000 in it and you're marrily in the 1200+ bar Safety first, and safety comes from thinking about what you do And if my memory is correct who was it that invented the percussion system of igniting propellant? A Scottish vicar. But life is to short to worry about it put the shot in the correct place and any cartridge will work and cip within the EU ensures it does so safety. True, get the pellets to the quarry and you will most likely kill it but i do not buy shells, i reload them ... so, i need to know what i am talking about! Especially on a public forum ... when I provide info to people, I feel i need to do that in an informed and scientific way to avoid dangerous practice developping with unknown consequences After all, i am a man of science and numbers so... i don't quite do random or popular legends... especially with explosives Rb. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted July 23, 2017 Report Share Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) Now don't get me wrong - I'm usually the first round here to write pages and pages of technical stuff to argue this point or that point - but when it comes to primers, I'm very much the empiricist. Ok - if you're shooting a 120-year-old Damascus-barreled gun of questionable proof, you probably don't want to push the pressures. On the other hand, changing primer might raise pressures 5000psi, 6000psi in the very worst case, and if you're dealing with a modern gun that'll blow up at 50,000psi, 60,000psi or higher (e.g. modern semis, thick-barrelled Baikals, etc.) then changing primer on a 9000psi load isn't really something to worry about from a safety point of view. Of course, I'm not suggesting being cavalier about it - the fact that you will get away with it most of the time doesn't mean you should deviate from the manual and certainly it's your own risk / fault if you do and get blown up. You'll almost certainly get inferior patterns since higher pressures will contribute to pellet damage - particularly if the shot is soft - so there's really no benefit - in theory. However, if you do find the pattern / performance is improved with this primer or that primer when the recipe asks for something else and the new one is in the same class as Continental Shooter listed above and you have a well-maintained modern gun, I don't think I'd personally be too worried. Modern guns leave a lot of margin for error. Edited July 23, 2017 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted July 23, 2017 Report Share Posted July 23, 2017 Agreed on most points, especially on pattern but my philosophy is to start from the beginning to reach the desired end (i.e start with the right prime to get the right pattern) in my experience, when a hot primer pattern best the the advised one, is usually because the original recipe was wrong Throughout the years i have also seen guns (and shooters) blown, mind you, not on the latest Beretta A330 Extrema, or on an Hatsan ... but they do, even though the theory is different. Like every other thing made in series, 9 out fo 10 come good, but that last one ....sometimes isn't always up to scratch I've alsways worked on the principle that just because a car can do 180 mph doesn't mean you have to go full speed (and in saying that i am remembering the old Clio Williams ... also known as the flying coffin down my way ). cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 I've alsways worked on the principle that just because a car can do 180 mph doesn't mean you have to go full speed (and in saying that i am remembering the old Clio Williams ... also known as the flying coffin down my way ). cheers, Agreed. It's fortuitous that you should make that observation this morning. I've just finished (yesterday, before it started ******* it down) a short series of tests comparing 1050fps loads with 1500fps loads. Identical components except for the powder, and once again we find that the 1050fps loads perform about 10-15% better at range than the fast ones. The English Disease remains endemic, but we're working on a cure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 (edited) Agreed. It's fortuitous that you should make that observation this morning. I've just finished (yesterday, before it started ******* it down) a short series of tests comparing 1050fps loads with 1500fps loads. Identical components except for the powder, and once again we find that the 1050fps loads perform about 10-15% better at range than the fast ones. The English Disease remains endemic, but we're working on a cure! haha very funny; i am discussing this very same matter -on another forum- in relation to the American concept of slower, heavy cartridges performing better that faster ones at long renges. It is clear in my mind that a slower cartridge will reduce pellets deformation and concentrate the pattern; the slower initial speed (especially on bigger pellets) guarantees that the loss of velocity is far less than this of the pellets launched at a faster initial speed However, i do believe that each load should have a target speed (i.e. 28g up to 415 m/s; 32 g up to 405 m/s; up to the mighty 56 which could perform very well with speed from 380 m/s) to ensure the best overall performance (coupled,of course with an optimum pressure) cheers, Edited July 24, 2017 by Continental Shooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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