Duck shell

[Guest cookoff013]

Guys,

i had a good question posed to me a little while ago.

Are 36g #6 powershot, good enough for duck? in a non decoy situation. for this im stating upto 40yards. i said ok.

[Smokersmith]

It's ridiculous overkill !!

[sako751sg]

Yes,they are good enough!

[Stimo22]

I find that Gamebore Silver Steel is a cracking load for duck flighting and it is the only load I can find with a fibre wad, as we shoot over grazing land.

cant fault the cartridge and feeds well through my Franchi Affinity

[Stonepark]

13g/cm2 - should kill like no4 lead.

[Guest cookoff013]

Someone wanted an opinion. It was the shot size that might make them really good.

[figgy]

Wish I had a slab of them. 

[6.5x55SE]

46 minutes ago, figgy said:

Wish I had a slab of them. 

Yes and the money to Wack Duck with them.

Admittedly only one shot but a while back i shot a Drake Pintail at about 35-40 yard with a 34gram  Hevi-Shot 4's it rendered it unfit to eat 

Edited January 9, 2018 by 6.5x55SE

[figgy]

Unfortunately had similar results with a widgeon on a splash,only 32 but a 3 steel shot rather than the smaller shot carts i had breast was minced with bits of feather in it. bird will have been inside 20 yards in full dark. seen where it fell and paced it out.

Sometimes it happens and we try not to repeat the mistake.

All this new crop of forms heavy shot is the way forward if and when the price comes down.

[Guest cookoff013]

price will never come down,

this topic was to come in line with my nontoxic test i did, the powershot version failed, but was 42g powershot. if i reduce the payload to 36g i know it would have passed because i have the 36g data with lead. (the test was really cool). the shotsize interested me because my understanding of external ballistics and "powershot" are not totally refined, 

just how many pellets and what size or shotcount per oz? in my ballistic test i think i used 5s i bought a small amount for not much money really. as it used cheaper powders (europowderinos) it was a next viable option. that would come under the 1300fps and 1250fps realm of speeds. 

the second thing i`m thinking about is......

is 36g #6 powershot versatile enough for geese too. too light for geese? to heavy for duck? whats the best compromise as an allrounder.

-nb. my external ballistic data knowlege for powershot is non existant at 40yards +
any tips people.

i just reloaded from an internal point of view. didnt really care what happens after. as i needed the pressure data

[tomaddy525]

#6 PWS will hit like a 3/4 in lead, and I'm confident there will have been many many geese killed at sensible ranges with those shot sizes in the past. I don't believe there is such thing as an all-rounder for duck and geese. #3 steel could be argued for but again makes a mess of close duck and might be lacking at ~45 for geese to the average shot. Would prefer to just swap between dedicated cartridges 

[6.5x55SE]

1 hour ago, tomaddy525 said:

#6 PWS will hit like a 3/4 in lead, and I'm confident there will have been many many geese killed at sensible ranges with those shot sizes in the past. I don't believe there is such thing as an all-rounder for duck and geese. #3 steel could be argued for but again makes a mess of close duck and might be lacking at ~45 for geese to the average shot. Would prefer to just swap between dedicated cartridges 

And Steel 3's 32 gram's are my choice when using a 12 ga probably being boring but i shoot so many Geese including on the Foreshore with this load. In my 20 ga on Duck and Goose 3's are my main shot size in a 7/8oz load 

[tomaddy525]

17 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

And Steel 3's 32 gram's are my choice when using a 12 ga probably being boring but i shoot so many Geese including on the Foreshore with this load. In my 20 ga on Duck and Goose 3's are my main shot size in a 7/8oz load 

You must be a much better shot than I am! If I was confident I could hit them in the head all the time I would probably use something similar too 

[6.5x55SE]

20 minutes ago, tomaddy525 said:

You must be a much better shot than I am! If I was confident I could hit them in the head all the time I would probably use something similar too 

 But I've been shooting a 20 ga for over 40+ years along with Geese weekly from 1st September to 20th February .

In my opinion Geese are easy to gun range by using your gun barrel/barrels and ( this is noway saying others can't ) i do have a knack of being able/ confident to forget the body and shoot the head consistently.

[harrycatcat1]

On 10/01/2018 at 19:10, 6.5x55SE said:

And Steel 3's 32 gram's are my choice when using a 12 ga probably being boring but i shoot so many Geese including on the Foreshore with this load. In my 20 ga on Duck and Goose 3's are my main shot size in a 7/8oz load 

Thats just what I wanted to hear, my local gunshop has some Gamebore 32g steel 3's for £58 per slab for my sxs.

 

[6.5x55SE]

1 hour ago, harrycatcat1 said:

Thats just what I wanted to hear, my local gunshop has some Gamebore 32g steel 3's for £58 per slab for my sxs.

 

put in the right place they are spot on. As i keep advising my Grandson just what you have in your hand and stop thinking what it's loaded with obviously Non Toxic for Wildfowl .

[harrycatcat1]

22 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said:

put in the right place they are spot on. As i keep advising my Grandson just what you have in your hand and stop thinking what it's loaded with obviously Non Toxic for Wildfowl .

[lancer425]

Here  is an article that some of you might find of interest.

Waterfowl Ammo Is Headed in the Wrong Direction

By Pete Wallace

 

   The latest technology in waterfowl ammunition is producing some interesting trends observed by this old timer. We can now shoot shells with wads that hold the shot together at greater distances, and use hardened choke tubes that strip the old style wads off and then try to tighten the shot pattern at longer distances. We are getting faster and faster speeds with our shot, which I guess are offered so you can kill your birds quicker, limit out and get home. What does it all mean to the area duck and goose hunter?

   Some manufactures are mixing quality shot with less expensive steel, to keep the price down. And you can be sure all this stuff works because someone with a awesome name and wearing loads of face camo, says it will. If that doesn't convince you, they will show a picture of a duck on a piece of paper with lots of pellet holes in it.

    The smartest man in the world once said that there are three types of lies; “Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics”. If you read the info on the box, one of the products shows a “pattern (that) represents a fives-shot average”. Unfortunately a lot of birds out this way don't allow us a five- shot average. It's that having to reload after three rounds that seems to be the problem.

   Although my thoughts are fill my cartridge with the best shot, put all the powder in it that my gun can handle, and I'll save up my money until I can afford to buy it, there is a advantage of mixing shot types and/or sizes in the same cartridge.

    What you see, is not what you get on the paper targets with a picture

of a duck on it.

   First of all, that paper is a lot easier to penetrate than most birds. Secondly, all those pellets are not arriving at the same time. The distance between when the first pellet arrives on target (or more likely passes by the target) and the time the last pellet arrives, is the “trail”. Or at least, that’s what I call it.

    The trail is every bit as important as the pattern. The trail makes your leed more forgiving, and every bird hunters knows that is a area that we need a great deal of forgiveness.

   Note; the term “leed” is the distance that you must shoot in front of a moving bird, it has been misspelled everywhere else but the spelling has been corrected in this article.

   Different size, shape or weight of pellets mixed in the same cartridge are going to lengthen your trail, which is a big step in the right direction.

   Next you need to improve the pattern, not by putting more pellets in a paper bird, but by widening the spread of the pellets.

   There is a reason shotguns are used for bird hunting. Tight patterns are fine for the small percentage of great shots that can consistently hit a small moving target at 40 yards. For the rest of us we need the widest pattern that we can get, filled with some pellets that can kill the bird.

    One right size pellet that can penetrate the bird’s kill zone is all that should be necessary. All those other pellets only cause lost time and/or expense at the dinner table by picking out shot, or breaking a tooth on a pellet that you missed.

   Pick the smallest shot size that can kill the birds that you are hunting. The better the quality of the shot, the smaller the size.

    In my opinion Hevi-Shot is the best load on market, #6, 2 3/4” is a good load for most ducks. For larger birds such as black ducks, scoters and brant, #4, 3” works well. For Canada geese #2, 3” is best and for snows #2, 3 1/2” works best.

    If you are just getting started at waterfowl hunting or are limited to a few days a year, chances are you are going to have a little trouble hitting flying birds no matter what type of ammo that you are using.

     Some of the super loads can get pretty pricey and hunters have been killing waterfowl with steel for years. Hevi-Metal has a mixture of two different loads, which will give it a longer trail and you a more forgiving leed. It is also more affordable.

   One of the most commonly asked questions that I get from hunters is “What choke should I use?”

     My answer is and has been, “You can't choke steel” Chokes were designed to compress lead, which is a soft metal. The only person able to compress steel, is Super Man.

   When steel first came out, it was wearing out barrels and chokes. Choke manufactures started producing chokes made for steel loads. These chokes are made of hardened metal to hold their diameter and labeled for “steel”. This doesn't mean that they can compress steel, it just means that steel won't distort or wear out the choke. The steel shot does not touch the barrel, or most chokes, because it is encased in a plastic wad.

    When you try to choke steel shot, it is just compressed into the plastic wad. When and if it comes out of the wad is anyone’s guess. Often, some of the pellets never come out of the wad. Steel should be shot from Open Cylinder, or at most Modified or Improved Cylinder.

     Another commonly asked question is “How far should I leed the bird?'

    That's a great question, because it shows that they realize that they have to do it. Unfortunately there is no good answer. Your leed on a flying bird depends on many factors, all of which change on every shot. These factors include the speed of your shot, the speed of the bird, the angle of flight, the distance, weather conditions and your method of leeding.

    It can be summed up by saying, PRACTICE! Sporting clays or any form of shooting clay pigeons can be helpful, but it is important that you shoot the same or similar loads as when you go hunting. Shooting lead at clays and steel at birds can be worse than no practice at all. The two loads travel at different speeds.

   Steel is faster in close, but falls off quickly. Lead is slower out of the barrel, but has more down range energy. Ballistically, Hevi-shot is very close to lead, or at least close enough to use lead to practice with. If you are going to shoot steel in the field, you need to shoot steel in practice.

    Speed is important, your shot must be able to travel faster than the bird that you are shooting at. No matter how fast your shot is traveling, you are still going to have to correctly leed your bird.

    All other things being equal, the only way to make your shot travel faster, is to make it lighter. The amount of powder that your gun can handle is limited. To make the load lighter you either have to remove some of the shot, or use a lighter weight metal. The lighter the weight of the metal, the less down range energy (killing power) it has. Less shot, means less pellets in your pattern.

   Find out what you are sacrificing to get the speed, which in my opinion, you really don't need. One of the most deceiving statistics is the advertized speed of ammo, its measured at the end of the muzzle. A lot of the birds that we are shooting at are a bit further out than that. The most important speed is that where “A”,

(the duck) and “B”, (your shot) are supposed to come together.

    Pick a good quality shot, stick with it, don't choke it, practice your leed and good things will happen.

 

 

[6.5x55SE]

Unusual for me but i did actually read that.

This only are my opinions which works for me

Whilst i think Hevi-Shot and likes of are fantastic shot if you cannot kill them with steel you got know right to use Hevi-Shot etc.

Having been a 1/4 - 1/2 choke fan all my life I've found that steel definitely can be choked for better patterns.

Anser2 in the past has seen me cleanly kill plenty of Tall Geese and various other shooter's have asked how much " Leed " did give that my truthful answer was/is  " Butt Bill Bang and when i told this to Munchers brother Farmergedon his answer was are you use the Maintained Swing Method .

Even with steel i believe in " Pattern AND Penertration " rather than one or the other so i tend to use small shot or basically the same as i did with lead 3's and 2's 

[motty]

47 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Here  is an article that some of you might find of interest.

Waterfowl Ammo Is Headed in the Wrong Direction

 

By Pete Wallace

 

 

 

   The latest technology in waterfowl ammunition is producing some interesting trends observed by this old timer. We can now shoot shells with wads that hold the shot together at greater distances, and use hardened choke tubes that strip the old style wads off and then try to tighten the shot pattern at longer distances. We are getting faster and faster speeds with our shot, which I guess are offered so you can kill your birds quicker, limit out and get home. What does it all mean to the area duck and goose hunter?

 

   Some manufactures are mixing quality shot with less expensive steel, to keep the price down. And you can be sure all this stuff works because someone with a awesome name and wearing loads of face camo, says it will. If that doesn't convince you, they will show a picture of a duck on a piece of paper with lots of pellet holes in it.

 

    The smartest man in the world once said that there are three types of lies; “Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics”. If you read the info on the box, one of the products shows a “pattern (that) represents a fives-shot average”. Unfortunately a lot of birds out this way don't allow us a five- shot average. It's that having to reload after three rounds that seems to be the problem.

 

   Although my thoughts are fill my cartridge with the best shot, put all the powder in it that my gun can handle, and I'll save up my money until I can afford to buy it, there is a advantage of mixing shot types and/or sizes in the same cartridge.

 

    What you see, is not what you get on the paper targets with a picture

 

of a duck on it.

 

   First of all, that paper is a lot easier to penetrate than most birds. Secondly, all those pellets are not arriving at the same time. The distance between when the first pellet arrives on target (or more likely passes by the target) and the time the last pellet arrives, is the “trail”. Or at least, that’s what I call it.

 

    The trail is every bit as important as the pattern. The trail makes your leed more forgiving, and every bird hunters knows that is a area that we need a great deal of forgiveness.

 

   Note; the term “leed” is the distance that you must shoot in front of a moving bird, it has been misspelled everywhere else but the spelling has been corrected in this article.

 

   Different size, shape or weight of pellets mixed in the same cartridge are going to lengthen your trail, which is a big step in the right direction.

 

   Next you need to improve the pattern, not by putting more pellets in a paper bird, but by widening the spread of the pellets.

 

   There is a reason shotguns are used for bird hunting. Tight patterns are fine for the small percentage of great shots that can consistently hit a small moving target at 40 yards. For the rest of us we need the widest pattern that we can get, filled with some pellets that can kill the bird.

 

    One right size pellet that can penetrate the bird’s kill zone is all that should be necessary. All those other pellets only cause lost time and/or expense at the dinner table by picking out shot, or breaking a tooth on a pellet that you missed.

 

   Pick the smallest shot size that can kill the birds that you are hunting. The better the quality of the shot, the smaller the size.

 

    In my opinion Hevi-Shot is the best load on market, #6, 2 3/4” is a good load for most ducks. For larger birds such as black ducks, scoters and brant, #4, 3” works well. For Canada geese #2, 3” is best and for snows #2, 3 1/2” works best.

 

    If you are just getting started at waterfowl hunting or are limited to a few days a year, chances are you are going to have a little trouble hitting flying birds no matter what type of ammo that you are using.

 

     Some of the super loads can get pretty pricey and hunters have been killing waterfowl with steel for years. Hevi-Metal has a mixture of two different loads, which will give it a longer trail and you a more forgiving leed. It is also more affordable.

 

   One of the most commonly asked questions that I get from hunters is “What choke should I use?”

 

     My answer is and has been, “You can't choke steel” Chokes were designed to compress lead, which is a soft metal. The only person able to compress steel, is Super Man.

 

   When steel first came out, it was wearing out barrels and chokes. Choke manufactures started producing chokes made for steel loads. These chokes are made of hardened metal to hold their diameter and labeled for “steel”. This doesn't mean that they can compress steel, it just means that steel won't distort or wear out the choke. The steel shot does not touch the barrel, or most chokes, because it is encased in a plastic wad.

 

    When you try to choke steel shot, it is just compressed into the plastic wad. When and if it comes out of the wad is anyone’s guess. Often, some of the pellets never come out of the wad. Steel should be shot from Open Cylinder, or at most Modified or Improved Cylinder.

 

     Another commonly asked question is “How far should I leed the bird?'

 

    That's a great question, because it shows that they realize that they have to do it. Unfortunately there is no good answer. Your leed on a flying bird depends on many factors, all of which change on every shot. These factors include the speed of your shot, the speed of the bird, the angle of flight, the distance, weather conditions and your method of leeding.

 

    It can be summed up by saying, PRACTICE! Sporting clays or any form of shooting clay pigeons can be helpful, but it is important that you shoot the same or similar loads as when you go hunting. Shooting lead at clays and steel at birds can be worse than no practice at all. The two loads travel at different speeds.

 

   Steel is faster in close, but falls off quickly. Lead is slower out of the barrel, but has more down range energy. Ballistically, Hevi-shot is very close to lead, or at least close enough to use lead to practice with. If you are going to shoot steel in the field, you need to shoot steel in practice.

 

    Speed is important, your shot must be able to travel faster than the bird that you are shooting at. No matter how fast your shot is traveling, you are still going to have to correctly leed your bird.

 

    All other things being equal, the only way to make your shot travel faster, is to make it lighter. The amount of powder that your gun can handle is limited. To make the load lighter you either have to remove some of the shot, or use a lighter weight metal. The lighter the weight of the metal, the less down range energy (killing power) it has. Less shot, means less pellets in your pattern.

 

   Find out what you are sacrificing to get the speed, which in my opinion, you really don't need. One of the most deceiving statistics is the advertized speed of ammo, its measured at the end of the muzzle. A lot of the birds that we are shooting at are a bit further out than that. The most important speed is that where “A”,

 

(the duck) and “B”, (your shot) are supposed to come together.

 

    Pick a good quality shot, stick with it, don't choke it, practice your leed and good things will happen.

 

 

 

 

I disagree with most of what is written here.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Interesting.

[Guest cookoff013]

i read that, there are some big holes in the statements. shotguns are funny things really, but essentially they fire lots of heavy metal pieces. thats it.

-yes there are sponsored shooters advertising shells, it happens.

-it is a partial mistake to load up shells to a powder limit.

-to improve patterns, either more shot is employed or putting what shot you do have in the right area.

-shell length makes very little difference, payload and speed does, they do go hand in hand to a degree. 

[lancer425]

12 hours ago, motty said:

I disagree with most of what is written here.

Me too!, but it is in line with how many today are thinking, They are wrong or should i say i think they are.

Without addressing every aspect of that article. here are three obvious ones i disagree with.

1   you cant choke steel. ?  Rubbish that is wrong.

2  Hevi shot is the best.?   I dont think so but each to their own.

3 Buy the best shot you can.?  Steel is fine it works good even though its cheap.

 

[lancer425]

2 hours ago, cookoff013 said:

i read that, there are some big holes in the statements. shotguns are funny things really, but essentially they fire lots of heavy metal pieces. thats it.

-yes there are sponsored shooters advertising shells, it happens.

-it is a partial mistake to load up shells to a powder limit.

-to improve patterns, either more shot is employed or putting what shot you do have in the right area.

-shell length makes very little difference, payload and speed does, they do go hand in hand to a degree. 

Shell length does usually change pressures and this all by itself can be used to benefit certain aspects of a load, besides the more obvious ones like volume payload and velocity.

[Smokersmith]

12 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Me too!, but it is in line with how many today are thinking, They are wrong or should i say i think they are.

Without addressing every aspect of that article. here are three obvious ones i disagree with.

1   you cant choke steel. ?  Rubbish that is wrong.

2  Hevi shot is the best.?   I dont think so but each to their own.

3 Buy the best shot you can.?  Steel is fine it works good even though its cheap.

 

Agree with you ...

Dead is dead ... and the steel loads I use deliver the dead in the air performance at a much reduced cost to the heavier g/cc alternatives.