The illuminati

[walshie]

2 hours ago, GingerCat said:

Wasn't that spock? 

No Spock said you must eliminate the illogical. 

[grrclark]

27 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

It's not about what is impossible or possible, it's about what is improbable or probable. 

If I told you I could shoot a 1 inch group at 1000 yards off hand with a. 308, many would say its impossible, but it's not, it's highly improbable. And somewhat unbelievable. 

The supposed 2 bullets that caused all the injuries to JFK and Connally, one of them went through 2 people, multiple limbs, bone, clothes and a car seat! With no deformation whatsoever. 

The other fragmented into dust, that's just another improbable part of the story, with many others, at what point does the official narrative become that improbable, it seems unbelievable? 

I cannot answer that as it is entirely subjective based on a wide range of variables, however i go back to my previous comment, because something is improbable does not make it false, that is deductively invalid.

I do agree that believability or credibility becomes challenged, but that is largely due to the way that people think and assess believability.  Most people fail to think critically, and that does not mean that you are critical of what has been said so choose to question that, as many interpret it, but it is a highly objective and reasoned analysis across a wide range of factors.

It's not a slight, but the majority of people just do not think like that and they make failed logical assessment and assumptions; to borrow an example from earlier in this thread a typical failure of logic would be in this rather blunt example:  The earth is a sphere, all tennis balls are spheres, therefor the earth is a tennis ball.

If you read through a great many PW debates you will see this sort of reasoning time and time again.

A summarised example from earlier in the thread, the government have been known to not be fully honest in what they have said before so anything the government says is not truthful therefore there must always be another explanation that differs from the government narrative.  Invalid logical reasoning.

[GingerCat]

Pretty sure it was spock. The one where they kill the klingon ambassador and kirk gets locked up with Scotty.

more believable than half of these conspiracy theories in any case. 

[walshie]

3 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Pretty sure it was spock. The one where they kill the klingon ambassador and kirk gets locked up with Scotty.

more believable than half of these conspiracy theories in any case. 

He might have said it but it was Sherlock who said it first.  Now before someone points put he didn't exist either....

[henry d]

12 hours ago, Mungler said:

It’s all a matter of probability.

Take the Twin Towers for example, the various conspiracies that have been put forward are just so incredible; they would require the involvement of hundreds of people, financing, equipment and the organisational skills of a crack squad of 50 Fred Dibnahs. To suggest that would go unnoticed given that all counties spy on one another and intercept communication chatter and moreover people inherently are always the weakest link.

Similarly if the moon landings were faked one would have thought that the Russians (who at the height of the Cold War were in a race with the Yanks) would have put the balloon up.

Probability is your friend. When the words of a you tube conspiracy blogger who is best mates with David Ike are accepted over probability then that’s just bonkers.

But hey, we’ve all watched and enjoyed the X-files and a bit of 24, we welcome and enjoy a juicy conspiracy.

 

12 hours ago, Thunderbird said:

A lot of the reason why people take refuge in conspiracy theories is that it means they don't have to handle the uncomfortable truth that bad things happen, there isn't a lot we can do to prevent it, and that when Governments intervene in situations the outcome is hardly ever what they expected or wanted. 

Perhaps for many it's easier to blame some global conspiracy than accept the (often bleak) realities of life. 

The above are close to what I have read and written about.

It is believed that people have a worldview that to them is just about unshakeable, however along comes a theory (take your pick) and if it has a few things in it, usually but not exclusively; a seed of credibility (a friend/expert said "...), and it arouses an interest in the person, that is where a change in that worldview happens. There then is a period of assimilation of ideas where they either dismiss the theory or accept it pending other ideas to confirm it. It is here that the other ideas amalgamate with the original idea and need support from other ideas, however as these defy logic or science they need other ideas to support them and so on. We now find we are entering Occam`s razor territory; basically we should rely on the simplest explanation of an event as the truth (until we find a reason not to).

So when I look out the window or across the sea, the earth looks flat, therefore it is flat. Science tells us that this is not so due to the difference in the suns angle to the ground at different places (N to S) at the same time of day. The CT will find a way to discredit this by saying the sun is X thousand miles away and not X million miles, they need to discredit it as it is trying to destroy their worldview so they add more theories and so it revolves.

How do you stop it, basically you don`t/can`t, the deeper they go the harder they are going to dig to get away from you destroying their world, because it has become their world not just their worldview. There is no critical thought (I think it was grrclark meantioned it earlier) as that is what changed their worldview in the first place and they don`t want to go back there again.

To summarise; if you need to combine the illuminati, nasa, gravity being false (we are travelling upwards), the sun moon/planets and stars are closer than we think just to support the notion that you see a flat horizon everytime you leave the house then you are a fully paid up member of conspiracys anonymous

[Hamster]

While they have us all arguing on the technicalities of whether the shots could be made we forget to ask why they were made , JFK had made important speeches of his intentions to abolish the Federal Reserve (a privately owned banking cartel built on fractional reserve - aka lending fictitious money now worth zillions), he also wanted to reduce the FBI's powers. 

Meanwhile here's some conspiracy theory news for you to rubbish : https://www.mintpressnews.com/defense-contractors-saw-10-billion-boost-following-syria-airstrikes/240652/

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, Hamster said:

While they have us all arguing on the technicalities of whether the shots could be made we forget to ask why they were made , JFK had made important speeches of his intentions to abolish the Federal Reserve (a privately owned banking cartel built on fractional reserve - aka lending fictitious money now worth zillions), he also wanted to reduce the FBI's powers. 

Meanwhile here's some conspiracy theory news for you to rubbish : https://www.mintpressnews.com/defense-contractors-saw-10-billion-boost-following-syria-airstrikes/240652/

I am not at all surprised by the details of your link, it is only to be expected.

[Munzy]

42 minutes ago, Hamster said:

While they have us all arguing on the technicalities of whether the shots could be made we forget to ask why they were made , JFK had made important speeches of his intentions to abolish the Federal Reserve (a privately owned banking cartel built on fractional reserve - aka lending fictitious money now worth zillions), he also wanted to reduce the FBI's powers. 

Meanwhile here's some conspiracy theory news for you to rubbish : https://www.mintpressnews.com/defense-contractors-saw-10-billion-boost-following-syria-airstrikes/240652/

A $2.5b climb in market cap from $65b isn’t particularly earth shattering given that 150 of the company’s Tomahawks have just been used and may be again.

So the question is, is a $2.5b windfall the secret reason behind a military strike or simply a natural market response to world events? There must be many companies who added 3% to their value since the weekend; were they part of the conspiracy too?

I don’t pretend to be a stock market expert but this doesn’t seem to show enough of a spike to warrant military action and possible reprisals from Russia...

[henry d]

3 minutes ago, Munzy said:

A $2.5b climb in market cap from $65b isn’t particularly earth shattering given that 150 of the company’s Tomahawks have just been used and may be again.

So the question is, is a $2.5b windfall the secret reason behind a military strike or simply a natural market response to world events? There must be many companies who added 3% to their value since the weekend; were they part of the conspiracy too?

I don’t pretend to be a stock market expert but this doesn’t seem to show enough of a spike to warrant military action and possible reprisals from Russia...

 

There you see, you are part of them, they want you to believe that!!!!

[Rewulf]

11 hours ago, grrclark said:

I cannot answer that as it is entirely subjective based on a wide range of variables, however i go back to my previous comment, because something is improbable does not make it false, that is deductively invalid.

I do agree that believability or credibility becomes challenged, but that is largely due to the way that people think and assess believability.  Most people fail to think critically, and that does not mean that you are critical of what has been said so choose to question that, as many interpret it, but it is a highly objective and reasoned analysis across a wide range of factors.

It's not a slight, but the majority of people just do not think like that and they make failed logical assessment and assumptions; to borrow an example from earlier in this thread a typical failure of logic would be in this rather blunt example:  The earth is a sphere, all tennis balls are spheres, therefor the earth is a tennis ball.

If you read through a great many PW debates you will see this sort of reasoning time and time again.

A summarised example from earlier in the thread, the government have been known to not be fully honest in what they have said before so anything the government says is not truthful therefore there must always be another explanation that differs from the government narrative.  Invalid logical reasoning.

It doesnt make it true either !

When you have a situation ,or an action that has arisen from a situation, or action that cannot possibly be proved by any concrete 'public' evidence and probably never will be.
Then you have set a course where believability is never going to be satisfied, so you rely on TRUST/FAITH.
You trust your government (you have to really, they hold the power) to not lie to you and take actions that could be detrimental to your life and liberty yes ?
But without any conspiracies involved at all, time and again, governments fail in this duty, occasionally someone has to 'resign' over it.
I know the system isnt perfect, but accountability is virtually zero.
But again you HAVE to trust your government, or do you ?

If people wish to believe the earth is flat, or indeed ,a tennis ball, let them get on with it, there are plenty of people who believe far more bizarre things, and hold highly responsible positions in government and society (but we wont go there today )

 

10 hours ago, henry d said:

 

The above are close to what I have read and written about.

It is believed that people have a worldview that to them is just about unshakeable, however along comes a theory (take your pick) and if it has a few things in it, usually but not exclusively; a seed of credibility (a friend/expert said "...), and it arouses an interest in the person, that is where a change in that worldview happens. There then is a period of assimilation of ideas where they either dismiss the theory or accept it pending other ideas to confirm it. It is here that the other ideas amalgamate with the original idea and need support from other ideas, however as these defy logic or science they need other ideas to support them and so on. We now find we are entering Occam`s razor territory; basically we should rely on the simplest explanation of an event as the truth (until we find a reason not to).

So when I look out the window or across the sea, the earth looks flat, therefore it is flat. Science tells us that this is not so due to the difference in the suns angle to the ground at different places (N to S) at the same time of day. The CT will find a way to discredit this by saying the sun is X thousand miles away and not X million miles, they need to discredit it as it is trying to destroy their worldview so they add more theories and so it revolves.

How do you stop it, basically you don`t/can`t, the deeper they go the harder they are going to dig to get away from you destroying their world, because it has become their world not just their worldview. There is no critical thought (I think it was grrclark meantioned it earlier) as that is what changed their worldview in the first place and they don`t want to go back there again.

To summarise; if you need to combine the illuminati, nasa, gravity being false (we are travelling upwards), the sun moon/planets and stars are closer than we think just to support the notion that you see a flat horizon everytime you leave the house then you are a fully paid up member of conspiracys anonymous

Never a truer word said 

But you have just described the thoughts of people who never think outside the 'box'
If no one ever explored those seeds of credibility, or challenged those worldviews that are the 'norm' how on earth would we move forward as a race ?
If Einstein and Hawking had just followed mainstream thinking, we wouldnt even know their names would we ?
I personally believe that flat earth, lizard shape shifters, annunaki/nibiru, chem trails, morgellons and indeed the illuminati, are nothing more than a manufactured distraction, to discredit anyone who puts forward a conspiracy theory that approaches the truth.
This way any government can simply say 'Ha ,these people believe the queen is a baby eating lizard, dont listen to them theyre mad !'

To simply dismiss ALL conspiracies because a few people are nut jobs is rather foolish in my mind.
No one discredits ALL religions ,because some people blow themselves up to get to heaven, or others cut themselves, or throw snakes at each other.

1 hour ago, Munzy said:

A $2.5b climb in market cap from $65b isn’t particularly earth shattering given that 150 of the company’s Tomahawks have just been used and may be again.

So the question is, is a $2.5b windfall the secret reason behind a military strike or simply a natural market response to world events? There must be many companies who added 3% to their value since the weekend; were they part of the conspiracy too?

I don’t pretend to be a stock market expert but this doesn’t seem to show enough of a spike to warrant military action and possible reprisals from Russia...

The question you really should be asking is not about the $2.5bn gain ,but how its worth that sort of money in 'peacetime' ?
Besides maintainance, how does a company like that earn money when its not selling ?
Why would it go up that amount ,when it effectively only has to replace $150 mils worth of missiles ?

[Scully]

50 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

No one discredits ALL religions ,because some people blow themselves up to get to heaven, or others cut themselves, or throw snakes at each other.

 

It depends on how one interprets religion; some see it as a faith in some kind of diety and others ( such as Buddhism according to a friend  ) are merely a set of ideals of how to live ones life. Both involve a certain amount of preaching but only one depends on indoctrination from day one, and the most extreme of which include  no toleration of questioning.  Can that be described as conspiracy? 

If one believes 100% in god then it’s not a conspiracy in their eyes, yet for those who know it as indoctrination recognise it as conspiracy, as one has conspired to instill a belief in one where none previously existed. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Scully

[yod dropper]

Print media (part of MSM that we have all been brainwashed by) are regulated, internet media are not.  One can say what they want, the other cannot - they are not held to the same journalistic standards.  One is more credible than the other.

 

Edited April 18, 2018 by yod dropper

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, Scully said:

It depends on how one interprets religion; some see it as a faith in some kind of diety and others ( such as Buddhism according to a friend  ) are merely a set of ideals of how to live ones life. Both involve a certain amount of preaching but only one depends on indoctrination from day one, and the most extreme of which include  no toleration of questioning.  Can that be described as conspiracy? 

If one believes 100% in god then it’s not a conspiracy in their eyes, yet for those who know it as indoctrination recognise it as conspiracy, as one has conspired to instill a belief in one where none previously existed. 

Thats not really what I meant, I wasnt trying to say that religion should be looked at as a conspiracy.
My personal opinion thinks that parts of it are, but thats not relevant here.

The thought process of 'normal' people thinking that anyone who 'believes' in conspiracies, goes something towards just that, they are not 'normal' because they believe in something which is not proven.
Yet they think it perfectly normal to throw salt over their shoulder, not cross on the stairs, walk under ladders ect.
What Im saying is, do not throw  every theory under the bus ,because a few have sucked up a daft idea, like a viral chain message.
If we dont question things , we are nothing more than drones.

[Scully]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Thats not really what I meant, I wasnt trying to say that religion should be looked at as a conspiracy.
My personal opinion thinks that parts of it are, but thats not relevant here.

The thought process of 'normal' people thinking that anyone who 'believes' in conspiracies, goes something towards just that, they are not 'normal' because they believe in something which is not proven.
Yet they think it perfectly normal to throw salt over their shoulder, not cross on the stairs, walk under ladders ect.
What Im saying is, do not throw  every theory under the bus ,because a few have sucked up a daft idea, like a viral chain message.
If we dont question things , we are nothing more than drones.

But by your explanation that’s what those who blow themselves up to get to heaven are...drones. 

I’m not throwing every theory under the bus, only those which defy logical processes or scrutiny. 

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

But by your explanation that’s what those who blow themselves up to get to heaven are...drones. 

I’m not throwing every theory under the bus, only those which defy logical processes or scrutiny. 

No, a lot of people discredit ALL people who get labelled as conspiracy theorists, due to numpties like David Icke and his alien lizard stories, he then starts talking about 9/11 and illuminati ect.
So do you take his word as being valid ?

Again you have islamic extremists who will rest eternally in paradise if they blow some kids up.
Many then associate ALL islamists as being of like mind.
Is that a valid assessment ?

Do you see what I mean now ?
Im not saying you particularly would discount all conspiracies, but the mindset to treat with suspicion ,anyone courting ideas with that 'label' does exist.

[henry d]

Come on then tell us your truth, because it is going to be a good one!

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

No, a lot of people discredit ALL people who get labelled as conspiracy theorists, due to numpties like David Icke and his alien lizard stories, he then starts talking about 9/11 and illuminati ect.
So do you take his word as being valid ?

Again you have islamic extremists who will rest eternally in paradise if they blow some kids up.
Many then associate ALL islamists as being of like mind.
Is that a valid assessment ?

Do you see what I mean now ?
Im not saying you particularly would discount all conspiracies, but the mindset to treat with suspicion ,anyone courting ideas with that 'label' does exist.

With you now. ?

3 minutes ago, henry d said:

Come on then tell us your truth, because it is going to be a good one!

Do you mean me? 

[henry d]

No, sorry, Rewulf

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

personally believe that flat earth, lizard shape shifters, annunaki/nibiru, chem trails, morgellons and indeed the illuminati, are nothing more than a manufactured distraction, to discredit anyone who puts forward a conspiracy theory that approaches the truth.

That truth

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, henry d said:

No, sorry, Rewulf

 

?

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, henry d said:

Come on then tell us your truth, because it is going to be a good one!

Why would it be a 'good one' Henry ?

And at what point did I offer ?

I dont judge people for what they believe, no matter how outlandish I THINK it is.
You dont laugh at children and ridicule them for believing in santa do you ?
You also dont think less of people because they are not as clever as you.

There is plenty of wisdom in some people who cannot read or write, and there is plenty of stupidity in people with high level education, remember that.

[henry d]

39 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Why would it be a 'good one' Henry ?

Because it unifies the conspiracy theories to a central idea that someone uses to discredit people so they do not get to the real truth, therefore it is a great truth and I for one would like to hear it, I`m sure others would too, why would you not want to share this?

Remember this is the internet and not a face-to-face conversation so we can`t read each others facial expressions, so a lot of what is written loses a little or a lot in translation

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, henry d said:

Because it unifies the conspiracy theories to a central idea that someone uses to discredit people so they do not get to the real truth, therefore it is a great truth and I for one would like to hear it, I`m sure others would too, why would you not want to share this?

Remember this is the internet and not a face-to-face conversation so we can`t read each others facial expressions, so a lot of what is written loses a little or a lot in translation

First of all, what central idea ?
Who says there is one? If you know it exists or have a theory, Id love to know it.

I cant share what I dont know !
Maybe you wanted me to put an 'alien' theory forward,  or talk about the shadowy 'deep state' but Im sorry , no entertainment  for you today Im afraid.

What I can tell you without any shadow of doubt, is there are people who mingle amongst the conspiracy community, who actively seek to misdirect, misinform and create situations where things are said, to shut the site or page down.
They are people with fresh (no friends) facebook accounts, or made up style names.
It could be something anti semitic (a favorite ) or racist, they then report it to admin, sometimes even the police, and thats usually the end of them.
Ooh paranoid ! Not really, Ive seen it happen.

Like Ive said, its NOT a way of life, I find it interesting, there are some occasional insights, there is often some fruitloops, that are indeed 'entertaining'    Dave Morgellons was a particular favourite (google morgellons) 
There are people out there who believe the most outlandish things, with not a shred of proof to back them up, its mostly a story that was told, and snowballed into an urban myth style belief that people are now convinced is true, with a willingness to accept any ridiculous evidence to 'prove' it.

Dont be guilty of the thing I mentioned previously though - of lumping all CTs into one box, we are not all created equal 

 

[henry d]

Sorry we seem to be at cross purposes, you said this>

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I personally believe that flat earth, lizard shape shifters, annunaki/nibiru, chem trails, morgellons and indeed the illuminati, are nothing more than a manufactured distraction, to discredit anyone who puts forward a conspiracy theory that approaches the truth.

This way any government can simply say 'Ha ,these people believe the queen is a baby eating lizard, dont listen to them theyre mad !'

So what is this truth? It has something to do with (any/all?) governments if I read what you are saying right.

Lastly I am very careful about using some/every and all in any discussion, and I do not lump all "CT`s" into one box, I have two friends who have very different ideologies but both have a couple of similar or convergent theories

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, henry d said:

Sorry we seem to be at cross purposes, you said this>

 

I personally believe that flat earth, lizard shape shifters, annunaki/nibiru, chem trails, morgellons and indeed the illuminati, are nothing more than a manufactured distraction, to discredit anyone who puts forward a conspiracy theory that approaches the truth.

This way any government can simply say 'Ha ,these people believe the queen is a baby eating lizard, dont listen to them theyre mad !'

So what is this truth? It has something to do with (any/all?) governments if I read what you are saying right.

Lastly I am very careful about using some/every and all in any discussion, and I do not lump all "CT`s" into one box, I have two friends who have very different ideologies but both have a couple of similar or convergent theories

'A conspiracy theory that approaches the truth' It would really depend on what conspiracy theory it was ,would it not ?

They re not all interlocking, but some compliment each other.

9/11 gave the US and allied nations the reason, and more importantly public blessing to virtually immediately attack Afghanistan, once al qaeda were neutralised, the attacks continued on the taliban 'insurgents' -they still do.
The prize in the region (not the only prize, as other countries were expected to assist saddam) was the oil in Iraq, but despite reports that he was sympathetic to al qaeda, there really was NO link with saddam  to 9/11, so they needed another reason, his non existent WMDs and more importantly the means to deliver them (in super quick time)
So the 45 minute story was circulated.But a spanner this way worketh..

The death of David Kelly, many people believe he was murdered by the government, or perhaps 'made' to commit suicide due to threats to his family.
Its not something Ive studied, or been particularly interested in, but Im sure you know enough of the story to save me having to go over it all.
Did he just decide to commit suicide, because he had been grilled over the WMD issue, was he depressed ?
Or did the government decide to shut him up ? Which does beg the question, why ?
We were already committed to the Iraq war, he had already said his piece , what more damage could he do ?
Unless he knew something else, which, having already blown the whistle on one thing, meant he might do it again?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/16/david-kelly-death-10-years-on

We all know what happened next, saddam was rapidly toppled, killed and elections planned.
But those pesky 'insurgents' supposedly affiliated to al qaeda, started off a virtual civil war of unrest, death and destruction , which meant troop involvement that is ongoing.
We got the oil though !
Once the dust settled and things got quiet, we see the emergence (out of nowhere) of ISIS! who fight everyone ! The Iraqis, the Syrian government, other 'rebel' groups, they fight everyone (except for their ideological sworn enemies Isarel) , and win ! They take over half of Syria, huge swathes of Iraq, cities with millions of inhabitants, they have brand new Toyota trucks and American TOW missiles.
Its like the army of Alexander, taking over Asia, they lack one thing ,air power, oh and armour, and artillery, and training, and a cohesive command structure, and secure communications.
They have mobile phones though, and a working network 
But that doesnt bother them, they seem to have an infinite number of jihadis, for 5 years they set up their Caliphate, and conduct terrorism throughout the world.

Then the Russians decide to go after them, suddenly the tide turns, IS or ISIL or ISIS or daesh are backpeddling , and the west is decrying Russian barbarity.
Especially when convoys of IS tankers are bombed on the way to unload their oil in Turkey...
So ,when you look at the broad picture, is everything as black and white as it looks ?
Why has Russia all of a sudden become such a naughty boy ?

[henry d]

But when you use a known conspiracy theorist (Napolitano), to support your argument you lose credibility, judge or not, and he has gone off the page regarding the US civil war which fits with his CT.

Yes, nothing is as B&W as it seems