Side by Side Club

[matone]

Seems likely that a fair proportion of Seniors made it here as I know of another single or possibly a pair that were bought in the 80`s and have seen a couple more for sale over the years.

[wymberley]

56 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That is interesting because the Premier (in UK terminology) is what the rest of the world got as a Senior.  Only about 40 were built.  Mine is pictured earlier on this thread.  These were AyA's 'Purdey clone'.  Few other makers have copied the Beesley patent action (which is what the Purdey is) and the Premier/Senior was AyA's attempt.  It was (in its time very costly, being about 7 x the price of a No 1.

Edit: I have looked at the Bonhams catalogue and the Premier/Senior dates to 1984.

DIARM era.

[EMT]

15 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Interesting - I don't fuss much over choke.  I have several guns, and without getting out my micrometer, couldn't even tell you what the chokes are, other than they a mix of IC, 1/4 and 1/2.

I shoot clays regularly with 3/4 oz (21g, 12 bore) in these fairly open barrels and my gun breaks the clays very nicely (when pointed correctly of course). 

When I shoot game, I use 28g felt wad No 5 or 6, and again - it works very nicely thank you (when pointed right) at the ranges at which I shoot (normal UK small farm shoot).

IF I was sent to the really high birds as found in Devon valleys, I would have a problem, because I do accept that to shoot at the ranges there in anything like a sportsmanlike way, I would need much more 'serious' firepower than an ounce through open(ish) barrels, but I don't do that sort of shooting and very much doubt I could get the pointing right either!

I do in fact have an o/u teagued with a 'full set', (bought like that second hand) - and have never changed the chokes since I bought it, which I think are 1/4 and 1/2, or possibly 1/4 and 1/4.

For what I do - pointing it right is the key, and heavy choking/tight patterns are unnecessary.

As mentioned in one of my earlier posts I had the opportunity to pick up behind a team of muzzle loaders last season.  Having watched them shoot the best cartridge to bird ratio of any team last season, along with the fact I have never seen so few runners (my dogs were getting very bored) I assumed they must have been using either a lot of choke or very big loads.  When I asked them what they were using, I was amazed to see they were using an ounce of 6 shot and apparently their guns were that old that choke hadn't even been invented then, so they were all cylinder.  

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, EMT said:

As mentioned in one of my earlier posts I had the opportunity to pick up behind a team of muzzle loaders last season.  Having watched them shoot the best cartridge to bird ratio of any team last season, along with the fact I have never seen so few runners (my dogs were getting very bored) I assumed they must have been using either a lot of choke or very big loads.  When I asked them what they were using, I was amazed to see they were using an ounce of 6 shot and apparently their guns were that old that choke hadn't even been invented then, so they were all cylinder.  

The open cylinder muzzle loaders can certainly work to a good 'normal' 12 bore range.  My godfather had a muzzle loader he gave to me (I still have it) - and he used it regularly to good effect (he was a very keen shooter and excellent shot).  However, I have been told by people who have been to some of these specialist 'Devon high bird shoots' (I have never been) that the birds are well beyond what would have been considered 'range' for a 12, and need high performance loads and choke. 

Most 'normal' UK pheasant shoots show birds under the 40 yards or so considered for many years about the 'range' of a 12, and the majority of birds are shot well within this range.  No 6 and open barrels are fine for this - and an ounce in a nice s/s is a fine way to do this.

It is said that the Devon high bird shoots show birds at a real 60 - 70 yards, and to get a decent pattern and penetration at that range requires something rather more specialist.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, EMT said:

As mentioned in one of my earlier posts I had the opportunity to pick up behind a team of muzzle loaders last season.  Having watched them shoot the best cartridge to bird ratio of any team last season, along with the fact I have never seen so few runners (my dogs were getting very bored) I assumed they must have been using either a lot of choke or very big loads.  When I asked them what they were using, I was amazed to see they were using an ounce of 6 shot and apparently their guns were that old that choke hadn't even been invented then, so they were all cylinder.  

Having eliminated all of the other possibilities, the only one remaining is that they were good shots and working within the capability of their guns.

[EMT]

58 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The open cylinder muzzle loaders can certainly work to a good 'normal' 12 bore range.  My godfather had a muzzle loader he gave to me (I still have it) - and he used it regularly to good effect (he was a very keen shooter and excellent shot).  However, I have been told by people who have been to some of these specialist 'Devon high bird shoots' (I have never been) that the birds are well beyond what would have been considered 'range' for a 12, and need high performance loads and choke. 

Most 'normal' UK pheasant shoots show birds under the 40 yards or so considered for many years about the 'range' of a 12, and the majority of birds are shot well within this range.  No 6 and open barrels are fine for this - and an ounce in a nice s/s is a fine way to do this.

It is said that the Devon high bird shoots show birds at a real 60 - 70 yards, and to get a decent pattern and penetration at that range requires something rather more specialist.

These were definitely not Devon high birds, just lowly Essex birds.   It was still an absolute please to watch.

[Feltwad]

4 hours ago, EMT said:

As mentioned in one of my earlier posts I had the opportunity to pick up behind a team of muzzle loaders last season.  Having watched them shoot the best cartridge to bird ratio of any team last season, along with the fact I have never seen so few runners (my dogs were getting very bored) I assumed they must have been using either a lot of choke or very big loads.  When I asked them what they were using, I was amazed to see they were using an ounce of 6 shot and apparently their guns were that old that choke hadn't even been invented then, so they were all cylinder.  

A muzzle loader sxs percussion in the right hands will kill has many birds  as a ordinary sxs , be it  driven game shooting  or walking up  also wildfowling . I have used black powder for the past 69 years  and I still prefer it to nitro

Feltwad

SXS percussion 12 bore

Edited May 4, 2018 by Feltwad

[buze]

@Feltwad I got a 'no name' hammer gun that is not nitro proof, I picked a few boxes of black powder carts from just cartridge last year in view to shoot it -- but I chickened out! The gun is in very good nick (I'm not sure it's been shot a lot, if at all TBH) but... 

Should I shoot it? AFAIK it has a value of zero -- it'd be destroyed by 'the trade'. The engraving is poor-ish, it's Skelp and not even damascus, it's really a generic under-lever with no lineage, history, and completely average wood....

I'd shoot it because it was meant to!

[Feltwad]

18 minutes ago, buze said:

@Feltwad I got a 'no name' hammer gun that is not nitro proof, I picked a few boxes of black powder carts from just cartridge last year in view to shoot it -- but I chickened out! The gun is in very good nick (I'm not sure it's been shot a lot, if at all TBH) but... 

Should I shoot it? AFAIK it has a value of zero -- it'd be destroyed by 'the trade'. The engraving is poor-ish, it's Skelp and not even damascus, it's really a generic under-lever with no lineage, history, and completely average wood....

I'd shoot it because it was meant to!

Most  of these hammer guns with no name were retailer by iron mongers I have come across several . Most likely it is a Birmingham made gun and proofed for black powder  if you want to shoot it have it checked out by a good gun smith for tightness , barrel thickness etc.

Feltwad

A stand of under lever hammer guns that I had reproofed to nitro  and a full restoration in the 1990 which I then used

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Feltwad

[Seadog1408]

That's just pure porn!!!!

[Dave at kelton]

20 hours ago, EMT said:

As mentioned in one of my earlier posts I had the opportunity to pick up behind a team of muzzle loaders last season.  Having watched them shoot the best cartridge to bird ratio of any team last season, along with the fact I have never seen so few runners (my dogs were getting very bored) I assumed they must have been using either a lot of choke or very big loads.  When I asked them what they were using, I was amazed to see they were using an ounce of 6 shot and apparently their guns were that old that choke hadn't even been invented then, so they were all cylinder.  

Interesting point as a percussion gun shooter that has often been the comment of the picking up team. They do not have to chase birds around the county and as has been said all of our guns are true cylinder shoting an ounce or sometimes an ounce and a quarter of no 6 shot and all with felt wads.

[Dave at kelton]

14 hours ago, buze said:

@Feltwad I got a 'no name' hammer gun that is not nitro proof, I picked a few boxes of black powder carts from just cartridge last year in view to shoot it -- but I chickened out! The gun is in very good nick (I'm not sure it's been shot a lot, if at all TBH) but... 

Should I shoot it? AFAIK it has a value of zero -- it'd be destroyed by 'the trade'. The engraving is poor-ish, it's Skelp and not even damascus, it's really a generic under-lever with no lineage, history, and completely average wood....

I'd shoot it because it was meant to!

Get it checked out and shoot it! If you enjoy it, and I bet you will, get a black powder license and load up your own cartridges. Not expensive to buy basic kit like an old roll turnover tool. I have a freind who has converted a Lee loadall to throw black powder charges for me. Great fun to use bp and will be a talking point on any shoot.

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Dave at kelton said:

Interesting point as a percussion gun shooter that has often been the comment of the picking up team. They do not have to chase birds around the county and as has been said all of our guns are true cylinder shoting an ounce or sometimes an ounce and a quarter of no 6 shot and all with felt wads.

I suspect the reason for this is twofold;

1. There is no doubt that the old open guns with the right shot felt wads etc., throw a good pattern and will do the job every bit as well at the right range (i.e. 'normal' shoot range) as modern equivalent.  The only real disadvantages seem to be speed of reloading and sensitivity to wet weather.
2. I strongly suspect that anyone shooting a muzzle loader will be both a keen enthusiast, and with that usually goes a pretty fair (or better) shot and an excellent sense of sportsmanship, by which I mean that they understand their gun's (and their own) performance and know how to use it to its best advantage.

When I used to run a shoot, a team of guns was often made up of a few 'keen shooting people', and several guests, who were both variable in experience and 'skill'. 

Good teams shoot accurately and cleanly, and only take questionably long shots where there is a bird that is already pricked.  Inexperienced guests can be very 'optimistic' as to their guns and their own performances (putting it politely!) - result, runners and pricked birds.

[AYA117]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Good teams shoot accurately and cleanly, and only take questionably long shots where there is a bird that is already pricked.  Inexperienced guests can be very 'optimistic' as to their guns and their own performances (putting it politely!) - result, runners and pricked birds.

Totally agree 

[Feltwad]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I suspect the reason for this is twofold;

1. There is no doubt that the old open guns with the right shot felt wads etc., throw a good pattern and will do the job every bit as well at the right range (i.e. 'normal' shoot range) as modern equivalent.  The only real disadvantages seem to be speed of reloading and sensitivity to wet weather.
2. I strongly suspect that anyone shooting a muzzle loader will be both a keen enthusiast, and with that usually goes a pretty fair (or better) shot and an excellent sense of sportsmanship, by which I mean that they understand their gun's (and their own) performance and know how to use it to its best advantage.

When I used to run a shoot, a team of guns was often made up of a few 'keen shooting people', and several guests, who were both variable in experience and 'skill'. 

Good teams shoot accurately and cleanly, and only take questionably long shots where there is a bird that is already pricked.  Inexperienced guests can be very 'optimistic' as to their guns and their own performances (putting it politely!) - result, runners and pricked birds.

Most muzzle loaders have their pet loads for game shooting personally I load for a 12 bore a volume load of 2.3/4 drms of powder to 1.1/8 oz of  no 5 or 6 shot .Has for speed in loading if it is a 50  bird day then   loading can be taken at a leisure pace  with concentrating on the loading is a must not watching birds flying over you because it is easy to double charge or miss out a component, if it is a 100 to 150 bird day  the two guns to a peg is better and speeds up the drive. For weather conditions for a percussion gun is not a problem you might get the odd misfire if it is heavy rain , for a flintlock it can be a problem but I use a soft leather hood which is placed over the cock and frizzen and remove when a shot presents itself Shooting game driven or walking up with a muzzle loader  is living the past  the bag size does not matter  if it is a 50 or 150 bird day . Most people coming into the sport do not like the  cleaning part of the gun with hot water  etc. and more so  smell  but that is part of muzzle loading 

Feltwad

[EMT]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I suspect the reason for this is twofold;

1. There is no doubt that the old open guns with the right shot felt wads etc., throw a good pattern and will do the job every bit as well at the right range (i.e. 'normal' shoot range) as modern equivalent.  The only real disadvantages seem to be speed of reloading and sensitivity to wet weather.
2. I strongly suspect that anyone shooting a muzzle loader will be both a keen enthusiast, and with that usually goes a pretty fair (or better) shot and an excellent sense of sportsmanship, by which I mean that they understand their gun's (and their own) performance and know how to use it to its best advantage.

When I used to run a shoot, a team of guns was often made up of a few 'keen shooting people', and several guests, who were both variable in experience and 'skill'. 

Good teams shoot accurately and cleanly, and only take questionably long shots where there is a bird that is already pricked.  Inexperienced guests can be very 'optimistic' as to their guns and their own performances (putting it politely!) - result, runners and pricked birds.

Absolutely spot on!

[JohnfromUK]

28 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

Most people coming into the sport do not like the  cleaning part of the gun with hot water  etc. and more so  smell  but that is part of muzzle loading 

Feltwad

I do have a muzzle loader, a double 12, originally flint, but converted circa 1846 to percussion.  It is in shooting order, and my godfather used to shoot it regularly on walked up grouse over a pointer.  I know he used 1 oz shot, but not sure how much powder.  He used to keep powder and shot ready measured out in old 12 bore cases 'corked' ready to use.  He used to have an old pingpong bat with a hole through the middle to hold the barrels whilst pouring boiling water through, and when all done they were dried overnight on the AgA!

One day - I will get kitted up and use it, but to date it is 'resting' in the cabinet (it is on my license as a 'gun' not an antique, and I have a number of friends who do black powder who are keen to 'get me going'!)

[Dave at kelton]

1 hour ago, Feltwad said:

Most muzzle loaders have their pet loads for game shooting personally I load for a 12 bore a volume load of 2.3/4 drms of powder to 1.1/8 oz of  no 5 or 6 shot .Has for speed in loading if it is a 50  bird day then   loading can be taken at a leisure pace  with concentrating on the loading is a must not watching birds flying over you because it is easy to double charge or miss out a component, if it is a 100 to 150 bird day  the two guns to a peg is better and speeds up the drive. For weather conditions for a percussion gun is not a problem you might get the odd misfire if it is heavy rain , for a flintlock it can be a problem but I use a soft leather hood which is placed over the cock and frizzen and remove when a shot presents itself Shooting game driven or walking up with a muzzle loader  is living the past  the bag size does not matter  if it is a 50 or 150 bird day . Most people coming into the sport do not like the  cleaning part of the gun with hot water  etc. and more so  smell  but that is part of muzzle loading 

Feltwad

My load exactly!

[FatFreddysCat]

I used to shoot with a 14 bore percussion muzzle loader made by Lacy & Co. Used 2 3/4dr and 1oz No.6. When I moved over to a breech loading 12 my kills to shots ratio was worse. However, I think it was because I tended to pick my shots with the muzzle loader as it took a minute to reload. Much more inclined to have a second shot with a breech loader as it took seconds to reload.

That 14 bore was a great roost shooting gun, no choke and most shots under 30yds. On a calm evening the smoke looked like mist drifting through the woods.

[AYA117]

I have always thought it odd when people spend a lot on a gun and then think 'any old cartridge' will do the job and cheaper the better, my personal experience is you often get what you pay for, a consideration for your quarry is what makes you a 'sportsman' too often have I seen birds hit and fly on because the shooter is shooting way past the effective range of the cartridge, pattern is just as important as shot load/size, there is no point having 1 1/8 oz of 3s and shooting at 80 yard birds, oh yes plenty of energy per pellet but not enough of them !

Edited May 5, 2018 by AYA117

[JJsDad]

On 04/05/2018 at 09:54, matone said:

Bonhams have an AYA `Premier` self opener in their next auction ,also an No 1 Deluxe with a low estimate on it if anyone fancies a splash !

While being a long time admirer of the better British side x sides, I have always had a soft spot for AYA`s. Since their introduction under the King brothers guidance, they have always produced an affordable, well built copy of the English game gun in both boxlock and sidelock configuration and there cannot be many game or pigeon shooters of middle age who havent at one time or another had one in their cabinet.  My long standing ambition to own a Henry Atkin sidelock has faded over the years to wishful thinking;  due to the inexcapable fact that although over the years my wage packet rose slowly, the cost of my secondhand dream Atkin rose even quicker !

I therefore read with interest `matone`s` news that there was a AYA Premier (Senior) in their next auction. While I note wymberley`s comment that its serial number put it into the ill fated DIARM era, only the top AYA men were engaged in building the `Senior` and as these men evidently moved across to the new business, I would suspect it highly likely that they continued their work on this model. I have seen some No: 2 models produced during the DIARM period where the grade of wood and standard of engraving were not on a par with earlier examples, but I have no reason to suspect this applied to what was at that time their top of the range gun.

At a guide price of £3k to £3.5k this seems an absolute bargin for a real gunmaking masterpiece, albeit at its top estimate you have to add £875 commision plus the dreaded VAT.

Having wondered idly whether the good lady would miss £4k out of an ISA; the question that invariably brings me back down to earth is: `How many game guns do I really need` ?

Edited May 5, 2018 by JJsDad

[JohnfromUK]

21 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

My long standing ambition to own a Henry Atkin sidelock

Speaking as someone who owns an Atkin Spring Opener and an AyA Senior, whilst the AyA is good, it isn't up to the Atkin, and in some ways, not up to AyA's 'usual'.

For example, the Senior doesn't have the gold washed locks or hand detachable locks of the lesser models, and in mine anyway (which is an early one) the finishing internally isn't quite to the level of a No 1.  It is not as smooth closing (well mine isn't) as a good Purdey, or an Atkin, but better than some I have handled.  Also, it doesn't have the intercepting safety of the lesser models, but does have bolted sears instead.  Some (but not all) Seniors have a concealed 3rd bite, Purdey pattern.  It has Purdey type ejectors, which are (apparently harder to set up than Southgate).  The Atkin is a little smoother and crisper all round on the 'controls' like the safety and opening lever.

On the 'plus' side, the engraving is superb, (all were English rose and scroll as far as I know) - as good as a best English, and the wood to metal fit (on mine anyway) is 99% as good as English.

[wymberley]

57 minutes ago, AYA117 said:

I have always thought it odd when people spend a lot on a gun and then think 'any old cartridge' will do the job and cheaper the better, my personal experience is you often get what you pay for, a consideration for your quarry is what makes you a 'sportsman' too often have I seen birds hit and fly on because the shooter is shooting way past the effective range of the cartridge, pattern is just as important as shot load/size, there is no point having 1 1/8 oz of 3s and shooting at 80 yard birds, oh yes plenty of energy per pellet but not enough of them !

True enough. Well said and well posted.

31 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

While being a long time admirer of the better British side x sides, I have always had a soft spot for AYA`s. Since their introduction under the King brothers guidance, they have always produced an affordable, well built copy of the English game gun in both boxlock and sidelock configuration and there cannot be many game or pigeon shooters of middle age who havent at one time or another had one in their cabinet.  My long standing ambition to own a Henry Atkin sidelock has faded over the years to wishful thinking;  due to the inexcapable fact that although over the years my wage packet rose slowly, the cost of my secondhand dream Atkin rose even quicker !

I therefore read with interest `matone`s` news that there was a AYA Premier (Senior) in their next auction. While I note wymberley`s comment that its serial number put it into the ill fated DIARM era, only the top AYA men were engaged in building the `Senior` and as these men evidently moved across to the new business, I would suspect it highly likely that they continued their work on this model. I have seen some No: 2 models produced during the DIARM period where the grade of wood and standard of engraving were not on a par with earlier examples, but I have no reason to suspect this applied to what was at that time their top of the range gun.

At a guide price of £3k to £3.5k this seems an absolute bargin for a real gunmaking masterpiece, albeit at its top estimate you have to add £875 commision plus the dreaded VAT.

Having wondered idly whether the good lady would miss £4k out of an ISA; the question that invariably brings me back down to earth is: `How many game guns do I really need` ?

Yep, only mentioned it as a heads up for those not aware and the need to just be a tad cautious. I'm 6 days short of four years past my sell by date and have just had a bit of a warning. Consequently, at the lower end of the scale my XXV (photo on here) is off to Dennis Stepney's 'for sale' rack as soon as I pick up the 700 that he's working on at the moment. Under normal conditions, I don't give a hoot about resale ease and values as I buy to use. However, now and in view of said warning I'm erring on the side of caution and hopefully ease of re-sale.

The answers to your final questions are; not if you're careful and just one more.

[JJsDad]

ANY 16 BORE PINFIRE USERS  ?

 Seeing as how there is such a range of old and new guns appearing within the SBS Club, does anyone own / use a 16 bore pinfire ?

Dont get to excited; but somewhere at the bottom of one of my dedicated shooting (junk cupboards) is a box of what I believe to be primed (new) but unloaded 16 bore pinfire cartridge cases. Havent dug them out, but at a guess there is around 50 or 60. I havent measured them, but the diameter is less than a 12, so just assumed when I was given them that they are 16.

They came from a friend who emigrated to France and found them while clearing the loft. Might be totally useless due to the primer composition degrading; however if they are of use to anyone, they are free to a good home. I will dig them out if anyone thinks they may be useful and provide further info.

Cheers

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, JJsDad said:

ANY 16 BORE PINFIRE USERS  ?

 Seeing as how there is such a range of old and new guns appearing within the SBS Club, does anyone own / use a 16 bore pinfire ?

Dont get to excited; but somewhere at the bottom of one of my dedicated shooting (junk cupboards) is a box of what I believe to be primed (new) but unloaded 16 bore pinfire cartridge cases. Havent dug them out, but at a guess there is around 50 or 60. I havent measured them, but the diameter is less than a 12, so just assumed when I was given them that they are 16.

They came from a friend who emigrated to France and found them while clearing the loft. Might be totally useless due to the primer composition degrading; however if they are of use to anyone, they are free to a good home. I will dig them out if anyone thinks they may be useful and provide further info.

Cheers

Bit of difference between French pinfire and British ones best to try empty cases in gun before loading them 

just a thought