Red squirrels Scotland

[Mice!]

https://scottishsquirrels.org.uk/news/article/north-east-towns-at-the-forefront-of-efforts-to-save-scotlandrsquos-red-squirrels/

North east towns, click on the link. There asking for reports of reds and greys.

The article says they may be seeing young greys on the move and that these need reporting, I've watched dog walkers wander past bird tables with greys on them and they haven't even looked.

[harkom]

part of the "conservation" lobby's promotion for assisting re-introduction of the pine marten was....that it would predate the grey squirrel.... Now I am no expert on colour vision in the pine marten.... but I would really like to know if PM can differentiate between grey and red....or the residents within a drey?

[wymberley]

If Elgin qualifies as North East, then that's where I saw my last one back in 1976 - playing on the grass outside a hangar at RAF Lossiemouth - a regular visitor

[stuartyboy]

1 hour ago, harkom said:

part of the "conservation" lobby's promotion for assisting re-introduction of the pine marten was....that it would predate the grey squirrel.... Now I am no expert on colour vision in the pine marten.... but I would really like to know if PM can differentiate between grey and red....or the residents within a drey?

The theory is that as the red squirrel is indigenous, it has evolved through time, co existing with martens and therefore has built up or evolved defence mechanisms that allow it to escape predation from pine martens better than grey squirrels. 

Greys aren't native and haven't evolved to escape predation from pine martens. Although doubtlessly, reds will feature on their diet too.

Greys are also said to be easier targets for martens as they spend more time on the ground, are heavier so unable to escape to the highest tips of the branches and are less agile.

The presence of martens also 'stresses' the greys so they are less productive and have a lower body mass etc

[islandgun]

Theres a lot in the news at present about introducing the Lynx, Kielder and Scotland. my own thoughts are that theres another potential predator of Squirrels. any thoughts?

[ClemFandango]

19 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Theres a lot in the news at present about introducing the Lynx, Kielder and Scotland. my own thoughts are that theres another potential predator of Squirrels. any thoughts?

again as with Pine Marten, Red squirrels and Lynx evolved alongside each other, Reds are more arboreal than greys so Lynx may increase the landscape of fear effect on greys even further?  

[islandgun]

6 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

again as with Pine Marten, Red squirrels and Lynx evolved alongside each other, Reds are more arboreal than greys so Lynx may increase the landscape of fear effect on greys even further?  

I like the idea but working on those lines, the grey has been evolving along with Lynx much more recently than Reds in their native America

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

If Elgin qualifies as North East, then that's where I saw my last one back in 1976 - playing on the grass outside a hangar at RAF Lossiemouth - a regular visitor

Grey or red? I was living in Arbroath in early 2000 and there were only reds in the area then, but from what I've been told its greys now in that area which is a real shame 

[Mice!]

18 minutes ago, islandgun said:

I like the idea but working on those lines, the grey has been evolving along with Lynx much more recently than Reds in their native America

Personally i don't see re-introduction of any predators as a good thing, the pine martins while fantastic creatures are going to have an effect on red numbers, yes the adult squirrels can get onto higher thinner branches and escape but the young in a drey can't, the fact that one recently climbed a seriously big tree and helped itself to an ospreys nest shows what they will do for a meal.

And as for lynx? Every time something like that escapes it winds up getting shot.

[scotslad]

1 hour ago, stuartyboy said:

The theory is that as the red squirrel is indigenous, it has evolved through time, co existing with martens and therefore has built up or evolved defence mechanisms that allow it to escape predation from pine martens better than grey squirrels. 

Greys aren't native and haven't evolved to escape predation from pine martens. Although doubtlessly, reds will feature on their diet too.

Greys are also said to be easier targets for martens as they spend more time on the ground, are heavier so unable to escape to the highest tips of the branches and are less agile.

The presence of martens also 'stresses' the greys so they are less productive and have a lower body mass etc

Spot on above

Forget the exact % now but reds 80-90% in trees while greys are closer to 50%

 

Been some recent studies about reds and PM and so far all have been really favourable, to the point that reds actually thrive more in the prescence of PM (possibly because PM are present in only better red habitat??) and not that its the PM helping the reds to thrive

So much so that some of the brainless wonders that are conservationists in scotland think widescale releasing of PM's would be a good thing, possibly for the reds but would wipe out many other species along the way.

They never seem to answer the question of wot do u do if ur idea is actuall a succes and PM wipe grys out, wot do the PM then feed on? Do u then control the PM? Will they still be protected?

Is the price of widescale extinctions (capercallie, black game, waders etc possibly even wildcat litters/kittens) a price worth paying??

I can't see lynx being a major issue with reds or even greys really, be a bigger issue with scottish wildcats (if any left)and more likely to cause issue with stock.deer and possibly game (how'd u fence 1 of those out a release pen?)

I read in ST this week about a 'possible' problem bear reintro'd to italy which has developed a taste for locals horses, the folk that reeased it don't really have any answers.

 

 

Back to Reds, if u go on saving scotlands red squirrels they're interested in any sightings in far more places than just the NE.

Anywhere that is a meeting point between predomitery reds/greys it is important greys are reported

Also 1 important area is SW scot (stewartry, nith/annan valleys), still a lot of reds but more and more greys present and to a lesser  extent borders as seemingly greys are pretty much widespread throughout borders now.

I think they're also looking for volanteer trappers too in many areas

Edited August 10, 2018 by scotslad

[ClemFandango]

8 hours ago, islandgun said:

I like the idea but working on those lines, the grey has been evolving along with Lynx much more recently than Reds in their native America

you may well be right there, it was just a guess. 

8 hours ago, Mice! said:

Personally i don't see re-introduction of any predators as a good thing, the pine martins while fantastic creatures are going to have an effect on red numbers, yes the adult squirrels can get onto higher thinner branches and escape but the young in a drey can't, the fact that one recently climbed a seriously big tree and helped itself to an ospreys nest shows what they will do for a meal.

And as for lynx? Every time something like that escapes it winds up getting shot.

All of the research so far suggests they have a positive impact on red squirrel density. predator to predator predation would be a price we'd have to pay if we were to release PM. 

I am not fussed either way, I guess the thing to do is look at the places that already habe Pine Marten and see if they are having an effect on other species. 

[ClemFandango]

8 hours ago, scotslad said:

Spot on above

Forget the exact % now but reds 80-90% in trees while greys are closer to 50%

 

Been some recent studies about reds and PM and so far all have been really favourable, to the point that reds actually thrive more in the prescence of PM (possibly because PM are present in only better red habitat??) and not that its the PM helping the reds to thrive

So much so that some of the brainless wonders that are conservationists in scotland think widescale releasing of PM's would be a good thing, possibly for the reds but would wipe out many other species along the way.

They never seem to answer the question of wot do u do if ur idea is actuall a succes and PM wipe grys out, wot do the PM then feed on? Do u then control the PM? Will they still be protected?

Is the price of widescale extinctions (capercallie, black game, waders etc possibly even wildcat litters/kittens) a price worth paying??

I can't see lynx being a major issue with reds or even greys really, be a bigger issue with scottish wildcats (if any left)and more likely to cause issue with stock.deer and possibly game (how'd u fence 1 of those out a release pen?)

I read in ST this week about a 'possible' problem bear reintro'd to italy which has developed a taste for locals horses, the folk that reeased it don't really have any answers.

 

 

Back to Reds, if u go on saving scotlands red squirrels they're interested in any sightings in far more places than just the NE.

Anywhere that is a meeting point between predomitery reds/greys it is important greys are reported

Also 1 important area is SW scot (stewartry, nith/annan valleys), still a lot of reds but more and more greys present and to a lesser  extent borders as seemingly greys are pretty much widespread throughout borders now.

I think they're also looking for volanteer trappers too in many areas

They kind of have answered the question about what PM feeds on after it wipes out Greys, Squirrels of both colours formed a very minor part of the PM diet in the Irish study, people seem to focus on PM eating squirrels too much, I think the far more important effect of PM is the reduction of Grey Squirrel breeding success. 

In Ireland they found that over 80% of the PM diet was voles. 

[islandgun]

When employed by SNH as a Mink trapper here in the Hebrides, I asked the manager if it wouldnt be a good idea to introduce the Red to Stornoway woods, [being an island without predators  or greys they would thrive]  his reply was an emphatic no. saying that why would we introduce another animal as it was already costing millions to get rid of the Mink.

[old man]

10 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

again as with Pine Marten, Red squirrels and Lynx evolved alongside each other, Reds are more arboreal than greys so Lynx may increase the landscape of fear effect on greys even further?  

From what I have been told, Grey's larger, less arboreal and unable to access fine branch tips to escape Martin's?

Fairly sure animals don't react to fear as we do, once the immediate threat is gone so is the fear response?

An interesting topic nevertheless.

Edited August 11, 2018 by old man

[scotslad]

2 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

you may well be right there, it was just a guess. 

All of the research so far suggests they have a positive impact on red squirrel density. predator to predator predation would be a price we'd have to pay if we were to release PM. 

I am not fussed either way, I guess the thing to do is look at the places that already habe Pine Marten and see if they are having an effect on other species. 

 

Yes but how/why do they have a positive impact?

Do the reds thrive because of the PM as the research trys to suggest OR the types of woods that are well suited for PM are also perfectly suited for reds?

So the fact PM are there or not might not be a factor and PM are more off an indicator species for cracking red habitat than actually infuencing the populations themselves?

Plenty of species can be indicators of other species despite not actually influencing them themselves

To actually test that u would need to study an area and actually remove the PM from it and see wot happened to Red numbers (as well as adding PM to a similar area + controls with no change, infact similar set up to GWCT's work at Otterburn, to actually isolate the affect of PM alone). Which will never happen.

 

I'm vey much against the release of PM, u ask any keeper on ground unfortunate enough to have them.

Like most animals and esp predators its not the presence of the animal that is the problem but hen u get local high densites depleteing local food sources and ur hands are completely tied and they'res nothing u can do but watch animals go locally extinct.

I would imgine for the density/population of PM to wipe greys out at a regional/countrywide level would have to be massive, even if they do eat 80% voles (which i doubt, be similar to stats that buzzards only eat road kill?) wot happens to all the other animals that rely on voles??

I would imagine vole numbers are under massive pressure with ammount of foxes and esp badgers, stoats etc about never mind ur owl species which are fairly dependant on voles to survive.

They're simply is only 'X' ammount of food in the ecosystem u simply can't keep adding/encouraging predators and expect things to carry on.

I know how much meat a ferret used to eat so i can imagine a PM leading an active hunting lifr will be 4-5 times wot a hutched ferret woul eat, it all adds up.

 

Ps When u watch some of those alaskan/americain trapping programmes they're often mainly trapping PM but still have loads of greys about too, so too say the grey hasn't evolved along side the PM is not true either

 

[Mice!]

There is a lot of debate on this topic, there is a lot of talk saying there is no shooting allowed in national parks so this is why PM are being looked at, obviously covering such a vast area trapping would cost a lot.

But i don't buy that greys will be affected and not reds, like Scotslad is saying its likely down to habitat, for me if folk are introducing pine martins they should be in grey only areas, then you have the effect on birds, another highly efficient predator doing the rounds at nesting time, similar to what happened with stoats and ferrets in New Zealand. I'd never really thought of stoats taking chicks and eggs from high up until i saw it on telly, pine martins go up trees like squirrels 

[Robertt]

We were in a similar situation 25 ish years ago with reds throughout the county.

Now we just have a main pocket of reds surrounded by greys, which are hammered by a dedicated band of trappers and shooters but despite this greys get through and pass the pox which decimates the reds.

While the general pubic, in the main, regard greys as 'our little wild friends ' proper control of greys is impossible as so many safe havens are being created.

Despite the announcement that the Red may become extinct little support to grey control, has been given from the powers that be and the general attiude is 'so be it'.

A bounty on greys would be a good start.

Rant over ?

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Robertt

[Mice!]

11 minutes ago, Robertt said:

We were in a similar situation 25 ish years ago with reds throughout the county.

Now we just have a main pocket of reds surrounded by greys, which are hammered by a dedicated band of trappers and shooters but despite this greys get through and pass the pox which decimates the reds.

While the general pubic, in the main, regard greys as 'our little wild friends ' proper control of greys is impossible as so many safe havens are being created.

Despite the announcement that the Red may become extinct little support to grey control, has been given from the powers that be and the general attiude is 'so be it'.

A bounty on greys would be a good start.

Rant over ?

 

 

Rant away, i don't get how Scotland pay people to trap, from grant money so support grey control but in England its all done in secret by volunteers and independent charities, there was a very recent case of pox in Formby, you wouldn't believe the stuff being written on line, it was a fairly even split between for and against grey control, given that there is a small population of reds surviving at Formby there should be a complete no go zone for greys so the reds can spread out, but it seems a lot of Joe public don't have the slightest idea what needs doing fir reds to survive.

[Yellow Bear]

7 minutes ago, Robertt said:

A bounty on greys would be a good start.

Not a chance whilst the fluffy bunny, tree hugging, snowflake urbanites that treat the countryside like a theme park are in the ascendancy.

[scotslad]

48 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Rant away, i don't get how Scotland pay people to trap, from grant money so support grey control but in England its all done in secret by volunteers and independent charities, there was a very recent case of pox in Formby, you wouldn't believe the stuff being written on line, it was a fairly even split between for and against grey control, given that there is a small population of reds surviving at Formby there should be a complete no go zone for greys so the reds can spread out, but it seems a lot of Joe public don't have the slightest idea what needs doing fir reds to survive.

 

Must admit not sure where the grant money comes from, althou to be fair there is sooo much money floating about out there for charities etc i have no idea where any of i comes from. Forestry commision oversee it and Scottish wildlife trust is often involved helping estates apply for the funding

Some is charity money and some aras have self funded trappers, i know our area is trying to raise funds for our own FT trapper.

They're will be money out there justgetting the right folk invovled that know where to find it and how to apply for it.

Basc was doing water vole conservationwork and getting grants (which effectively means mink trapping)

But there is loads of these mickey mouse conservation jobs about and many folk just float from 1 failed project to the next

 

I'm on a commitee for a nature reserve famous for red's and i know fellow committe members are against killing greys, it's just complete madness and greys are slowly but surley creeping all around it. Really sadly its only a matter of time

 

Really a bounty on tails would be the ideal way forward, has woeked in the past with many species, only slight problem if not on a nationally uk wide level (which probably isn't justified as no reds) u'd sadly always get some greedy ****** gets tails from elsewhere to claim the bounty.

 

 

As an aside the SWT/SSRS have almost wiped the greys out in aberdeen city outscirts now after intensive trapping and reds are coming back into the city.

Might be something on the SSRS website about it

[scotslad]

1 hour ago, Robertt said:

We were in a similar situation 25 ish years ago with reds throughout the county.

Now we just have a main pocket of reds surrounded by greys, which are hammered by a dedicated band of trappers and shooters but despite this greys get through and pass the pox which decimates the reds.

While the general pubic, in the main, regard greys as 'our little wild friends ' proper control of greys is impossible as so many safe havens are being created.

Despite the announcement that the Red may become extinct little support to grey control, has been given from the powers that be and the general attiude is 'so be it'.

A bounty on greys would be a good start.

Rant over ?

 

 

Rant away!

I know times have changed far too much in recent decades but in the past the old MAFF had the power to do all sorts of things including going on to land to kill rabbits and billing the land owner for their trouuble.

So they're must be laws/legislation out there that could be used to tackle any grey sancturies.

 

When u see the way NZ and OZ tackle non natives it really is all out war including dropping poisoned baits from helicopters, they don't mess about.

 

Would be good to see UK government or SNH/NE or DEFRA/SERAD  take a far stronger approach on non native invasive species and not just grey squirrels, Jap knot weed, Him balsalm, N americain cray fish etc, should force landowners to atleast attempt to tackle/control the species or fie them

[ClemFandango]

3 hours ago, scotslad said:

 

Yes but how/why do they have a positive impact?

Do the reds thrive because of the PM as the research trys to suggest OR the types of woods that are well suited for PM are also perfectly suited for reds?

So the fact PM are there or not might not be a factor and PM are more off an indicator species for cracking red habitat than actually infuencing the populations themselves?

Plenty of species can be indicators of other species despite not actually influencing them themselves

To actually test that u would need to study an area and actually remove the PM from it and see wot happened to Red numbers (as well as adding PM to a similar area + controls with no change, infact similar set up to GWCT's work at Otterburn, to actually isolate the affect of PM alone). Which will never happen.

 

I'm vey much against the release of PM, u ask any keeper on ground unfortunate enough to have them.

Like most animals and esp predators its not the presence of the animal that is the problem but hen u get local high densites depleteing local food sources and ur hands are completely tied and they'res nothing u can do but watch animals go locally extinct.

I would imgine for the density/population of PM to wipe greys out at a regional/countrywide level would have to be massive, even if they do eat 80% voles (which i doubt, be similar to stats that buzzards only eat road kill?) wot happens to all the other animals that rely on voles??

I would imagine vole numbers are under massive pressure with ammount of foxes and esp badgers, stoats etc about never mind ur owl species which are fairly dependant on voles to survive.

They're simply is only 'X' ammount of food in the ecosystem u simply can't keep adding/encouraging predators and expect things to carry on.

I know how much meat a ferret used to eat so i can imagine a PM leading an active hunting lifr will be 4-5 times wot a hutched ferret woul eat, it all adds up.

 

Ps When u watch some of those alaskan/americain trapping programmes they're often mainly trapping PM but still have loads of greys about too, so too say the grey hasn't evolved along side the PM is not true either

 

Different species of Marten for a start... 

The control test you describe mirrors the research in Ireland. There weren't any PM or they were at extremely low density (impossible to say there were none at all) High density of grey squirrels, receding population of reds. As the density of PM increased as did the density of Red Squirrel, but conversely the density of grey squirrel was reduced. 

 

I totally agree with you regarding the voles.

The estimation of 80% was from scat surveys so I can't see how it can be wrong... Anyway, so many other predators rely on them, so adding another will undoutably have a knock on effect. 

Edited August 11, 2018 by ClemFandango

[islandgun]

Scotslad The reason given by SNH and Defra for not allowing a bounty for Mink tails were mostly welfare,  people not following the code of practice for trapping, regularly checking traps and issues concerning dispatch [some freelance trappers were drowning mink] 

The Mink project here was carried out in a very systematic and controlled way. which perhaps would not be the case if random bounty hunters were allowed free rein. having said that Grey squirrels are different  and different measures should be in place.

Just seen your last post about NZ. I remember reading recently where the kiwis trapped the spp they wanted to retain and then blanket poisoned the rest

[scotslad]

8 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

Different species of Marten for a start... 

The control test you describe mirrors the research in Ireland. There weren't any PM or they were at extremely low density (impossible to say there were none at all) High density of grey squirrels, receding population of reds. As the density of PM increased as did the density of Red Squirrel, but conversely the density of grey squirrel was reduced. 

 

I totally agree with you regarding the voles.

The estimation of 80% was from scat surveys so I can't see how it can be wrong... Anyway, so many other predators rely on them, so adding another will undoutably have a knock on effect. 

 

Cheer clem.

Must admit i'll have to dig out a copy of those studies to read them.

Was there not also a study they tried to claim that even in areas with no greys red densities increased when PM were present??

I know i have been at meetings and that was wot they were trying to make out. It does scare me as more and more seem to think a great idea and fail to see the massive flaw in the logic of releasing a fantastic predator.  Can see it going along the lines of the cane toad in oz

I got a load of bumf with those studies filled away somewhere.

 

If thats the case in ireland it only prves eds thrive when less greys about which is not rocket sience, just in this case the PM killed the greys.

How many years was the study conducted over??

They have shown reds are really quite resilient and can recover  fairly quickly in areas, been show after the pox as long as u stop the greys becoming established

 

Sorry I have to admit i'm very sceptical of a lot of UK based science, some of it can be very poor esp when ur on about predation and killing things,  i often think there is alomst an instutionalised bais with a lot of studies over the last 30+ years

Some of the similar european studies often show a truer picture (atleast many i read back at uni about black game, caper, ground nesting birds) and effects of predation

How many times are we told by experts that 'x and y' species only eats carrion/worms etc to see them devastating local hadgerows and stressing out release pens

 

More on general wildlife conservation but somehow in UK we seem to have completely lost the plot more often than not, no matter wot species ur into protecting (bugs beasties, fish, birds or raptors) most would happily see a non 'target' species wiped out it it meant saving there favourite 'target' species thrived, very few folk look at the bigger picture on the wider ecosystem  (and shooters can be just as guilty in some cases releasing large densities of non natives sometimes to the detriment of local area)

As has been proven with the hoo ha about rspb killing predators to protect nesting members, some rspb members have said should let predators be if they wipe out a load of waders so be it, just natures way??

 

Again off topic but on about conservation in general, this is quite a big step for conservationists to come out and admit a predators can have a massive impact on prey numbers when for the lst 30 years have tried very hard to argue the oppisate. The booming badger/corvid/raptor populations has seen a free fall in many animal/bird populations is just a coincedence.

[pinfireman]

I remember we used to get 50p a tail for Greys....the fly fishermen loved them.  Make it a £1 a tail, and watch the nembers drop.....