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joejoe

Disobedience

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    I'm currently training my first gun dog a Labrador. He's 10 months old and he's picking up training very well. However he's has started to actively ignore some commands if he feels he has a better idea.

    For example after walking he's isn't coming to the car after being called or I use the whistle. Instead he's is trying to get me to chase him, which I won't as he's fast.  This is both frustrating and potential dangerous he's he can't be stopped.

    During he's walks he is fine stopping coming back etc unless he finds some horse manure to eat or another dog. Then I know he knows to come back but instead ignores me. 

    Does anyone have any experience of this and how to deal with it before it gets worse? I understand he's just a puppy but it's still annoying.

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    Make it worth his while to come back when called   !

    Give him a small treat when he comes back. Do NOT wait until you are at the car, call him back earlier and slip a lead on him, having already praised him for coming back in the first place. IF he fails to come back when called, do NOT chase after him. If anything, go in the opposite direction and make him come after YOU. Do NOT slip the lead on immediately, keep patting your left thigh and use the word "Heel", giving him the occasional treat, THEN after a few yards, slip the lead back on him. If he starts to associate the car with the end of playtime, he will be reluctant to return to the car. Get him back,  away from the vehicle and then take him ON the lead to the car. 

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    Rein him in  cut the distance down to 10 yards on recalls. If he moves off his spot, put him back on it, if he moves again, put him back on it. It's all about persistence and routines, if he gets near poo to eat it you need to intervene and let him know it's wrong, do this your own way. We shouted NO with a tug on his slip lead (which was loose just behind his ears)

    We used a plastic bottle with pebbles in and threw it at him, kind of frightened him and ran back to us.

     

    But basicly keep the distances short. You'll have more control. 

     

    Use a spare lead as  circle for him to "stay" in it gives him some area he can see. 

    Edited by Dougy

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    First thing to say is they all go through this stage to a degree. He is entering his teenage years and being defiant. As pack leader you need to win this battle. I agree with what has been said ref reward and control. Firstly buy some para cord and get him used to wearing it whenever he is out. It is so light he will hardly notice it after a while. When he doesn’t come in you put your foot on the cord and encourage him in whilst restricting his ability to defy you.

    You might also feed him in the back of the car so he wants to get in it.

    Do expect issues like this over the coming months. I am still getting it with an 18 month old and it is just back to basics and the check cord if needed. There is no shame in it you just have to come out on top.

     

    Good luck

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    As been said he’s a young dog and he will push you, but my guess is the dogs basic training as not been fully grounded, “he can't be stopped” with such a young dog you may need to take a few steps back.

    When training don’t take the dog to places with distractions.

    If you are not in a position to drive a command home then don’t give it.

    If you are in a position to drive the command home and you are sure he heard the command then never let him get away with ignoring it, don’t keep repeating the command until he complies.

    I would not be giving a dog that young treats for complying with commands especially on retrieves, lots of praise and fuss yes.

    Some of the points Westley made are good practice, walking in the opposite direction while softly calling his name, putting the lead on away from the car, I would add that you need to keep a close eye on the dog and surroundings when you are about to give a command, if you think there is any chance of him being distracted and ignoring it then don’t give it.  

    Edited by old'un

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    Just think back at when you were 11 -16 and your parents tell you to tidy your room, or be back for a certain time. You pushed the boundaries i bet, just like your dog, when he defies you he will be looking at you, he looks at your reaction. That's what he wants, reaction. Life is all a game at that age. 

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    You've not taught him the first 3 things he should have learnt. Recall, recall, recall. Until understands these 3 things forget about doing anything else.

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    Don't set him up to fail, ie practice with nothing that with distract him from his recall. Practice and practice on the recall, the most important thing in my opinion. Really praise him when he comes back, he should love coming back to you. Get that simple thing right and you're part way there. 

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    6 hours ago, Dougy said:

    Just think back at when you were 11 -16 and your parents tell you to tidy your room, or be back for a certain time. You pushed the boundaries i bet, just like your dog, when he defies you he will be looking at you, he looks at your reaction. That's what he wants, reaction. Life is all a game at that age. 

    I'm still pretty bad at cleaning my thing a way now at 34.

    To be fair when I'm practicing he does it great. A little too good as my legs are bruised from him running into me.

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    On 03/09/2018 at 17:29, PERCE said:

    You've not taught him the first 3 things he should have learnt. Recall, recall, recall. Until understands these 3 things forget about doing anything else.

    Thank God you’re here ??

    There is NO SUCH THING as deliberate disobedience. No dog thinks ‘oh I’m going to do this to take the mick’

    As somebody else above has said you need to make yourself THE most interesting fun thing in the world. Find out what turns him on and use it to your advantage. 

     

    Best of luck.

    Edited by bigbird

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    2 hours ago, bigbird said:

    Thank God you’re here ??

    There is NO SUCH THING as deliberate disobedience. No dog thinks ‘oh I’m going to do this to take the mick’

    As somebody else above has said you need to make yourself THE most interesting fun thing in the world. Find out what turns him on and use it to your advantage. 

     

    Best of luck.

    This ^^^^^^

    how hard can it be for you to make yourself more attractive than what he’s interested in 

    horse droppings and sniffing a dogs behind 

     

    get some lessons 

     

    all the best 

    of 

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    21 hours ago, bigbird said:

    Find out what turns him on and use it to your advantage

    Well that is definitely food. 

     

    19 hours ago, Old farrier said:

    how hard can it be for you to make yourself more attractive than what he’s interested in 

    horse droppings and sniffing a dogs behind 

     

    I'll do my best.

     

    Just to say I haven't had any problems with him doing this in the last week. I have just been giving him a marrowbone as he gets in. He's not failed any recalls either. 

    He has just stolen a load of salami I bought from one of the contintal markets. But that is my fault for leaving it in reach.

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    Here's my tu'ppence worth on the topic - hope it might be of some use.

    Dog training is 90% conditioned response, so the most important rule is to only give a command when you' know you['re going to get the required response. The end goal - and the essential goal  - is that if you tell him to come, he should come at once - there should be nothing optional about it. But it's a slow, step by step process over a month or more. So to begin with, only tell him to come when he probably wants to. Then make a fuss of him when he comes. When that gets entirely predictable, tell him to come when he might not want to, but isn't particularly distracted. If you walk or run away from  him while giving the command, he'll almost certainly follow. Make a fuss of him again. Rinse and repeat until that too gets entirely predictable. At some point though, you're going to want to tell him to come when he doesn't want to - and almost certainly  - as you're already found out -  you're going to see the dog say to himself 'B*gg*r you, this is more interesting' and he'll deaf you out. Now, I'm a bit old-fashioned, at this point I would run to him and give him a shake by the scruff and bit of a telling. Not hard enough to hurt but he has to know that  not responding (note I didn't say obeying) has consequences. Once I'd got his attention, I would  put some distance between us and call him again. If you're not in the habit of bad-using your dog, he'll come immediately. Big fuss again. And so on and so forth. Eventually the dog will always come first time.

    A couple of key things.

    1) If you're not sure he'll come back, or if you're not close enough or in a position to get at him if he doesn't - don't give the command in the first place. Dog training is  all about conditioning an automatic response to a stimulus, and you can condition a dog to automatically ignore your commands just as easily  - in fact more easily - than you can condition him to obey them!

    2) Never ever call the dog to you and then give him a doing or a severe telling for not responding to a previous command, or for some other transgression like chewing the car seat or whatever because you're basically teaching him that coming to you is a dodgy business. The result will be one of these dogs that half comes back and then circles around out of range - usually before bu@@ering off again to do what he likes! If you're going to chastise a dog for anything at all - you must always go to the dog - even if it means running 200 yards.

    3)  With a young dog, it's helpful to keep training sessions and general exercise, etc, separate activities as far as you are able. That way both you and the dog will know what's expected of you when 'school' is in session. Of course, later, when you're confident that the dog will return, stop, wait, look back, or whatever other commands you've taught him, it's fine to practice them anytime or anywhere - in fact it's what you should do. But when the dog is still struggling with getting the hang of what you want of him, or if he still imagines that he has the option of doing what he's told or not, it's best to only give commands under controlled circumstances, away from distractions. As I said above, if you rinse and repeat often enough and consistently enough, eventually the dog will just naturally obey wherever he is, because you'll have conditioned an automatic response. Then you're pretty much home and dry for the life of the dog. So it's worth spending time on to get it right from the beginning.

    4) Don't be impatient. The key to training dogs is little and often and consistency. And loss of temper (despite that we've all been there!) is ALWAYS counter-productive.

    One very last thing. Again, maybe it's me and I"m a bit old-fashioned but I have serious doubts about bribing the dog with a marrow bone. It's unnecessary -  a little bit of encouragement should almost certainly do the job instead - and bribery is not conducive to a correct balance in the relationship between you and the dog. Is the dog coming because you give the command, or for the marrow bone? For you and the dog to work in harmony, he needs to be responding to you and you alone. It's OK to reward a dog to give him the idea of what he's supposed to do, but once he knows what's expected then it should just be you and him and the bone is an outside distraction.

    Good luck. I'm envious - I'd love to have the opportunity to train another dog .....

    Edited by Retsdon

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