NHS

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

The financial burden of the NHS is shared pro rata based on what an individual earns, everyone is entitled to access the NHS equally, if someone is fortunate to earn enough to get private treatment or afford private health insurance......they buy a service which enables them to get the benefit of faster treatment and jump the queue ahead of others in need! That is their choice....But should they fall on hard times or decide to use the NHS its there for them, that's their choice too! Regardless of if an individual accesses it it or not, now or in the future, it still has to financed and be there for everyone! We don't pay for the NH Service as much as we pay for it to be there, when and if we need it!

The NHS cannot and should not be financed solely by those that can't afford private medical care, which is what you seem to be suggesting?

 

Yep your probably right. No problem that they pay due tax. Just me feeling it's a rip off that they do not get tax relief on the payments for private health and are not allowed tax relief for private pensions either.

Interesting to see what happens with decline in smoking. Smokers pay the most tax and whilst they use the NHS service they do not draw much pension. 

[grrclark]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yep your probably right. No problem that they pay due tax. Just me feeling it's a rip off that they do not get tax relief on the payments for private health and are not allowed tax relief for private pensions either.

Interesting to see what happens with decline in smoking. Smokers pay the most tax and whilst they use the NHS service they do not draw much pension. 

Remember if you get private healthcare from your employer you pay tax on the P11D value of that, so those in that position who have less impact on the NHS actually pay proportionaly more towards it as well.

However, as Panoma suggested it is complicated and not an either or.

[panoma1]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

Yep your probably right. No problem that they pay due tax. Just me feeling it's a rip off that they do not get tax relief on the payments for private health and are not allowed tax relief for private pensions either.

Interesting to see what happens with decline in smoking. Smokers pay the most tax and whilst they use the NHS service they do not draw much pension. 

The 'system' is designed to relieve everyone of money, the more you earn the deeper the system has its hand in your pocket! it will squeeze every penny it deems you can afford out of you! It wants its share of your good fortune!

[old man]

12 hours ago, Retsdon said:

No it wasn't. As I said above, my father worked for the NHS for virtually all his professional life. I asked him once why he didn't do private practice, because he would almost certainly have made more money. His reply was that private practice was fine if you had an acute condition, or you needed a one-off operation like a hip replacement or something, but the problem with it was that if you were old or chronically sick the insurance companies didn't want to know you. There's no doubt that for my father and other doctors who signed up for the NHS at its inception, it was never meant to be an experiment. They really believed that decent health care should be universally available and not dependent on the depth of ones pockets.

Sorry to disagree but It was an experiment in as much as the aspirations were new and untried?

It was born with the 70 year old  and will certainly be gone with them..I am an ardent supporter. How it can be expected to support the medical aspirations of the world when so few pay, or have paid is beyond my comprehension or common sense.. 

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by old man

[ph5172]

I think everyone knows that it is the envy of the world, for good reason, free at the point of use level field healthcare for everyone regardless of standing or finances, at its inception the budget (in todays money) was still high (but enough now to run it for 1 day (if i recall correctly) a majority of this has got to be due to medical advances meaning people who would have normally been dead (even a few years ago) now survive but have lifelong medical conditions that require specialist (££) management coupled with an aging population means the writing is on the wall.

To have the current level of service spending is going to have to go up, its nigh on impossible to streamline it anymore.

For this to happen means higher taxes, a robust control of users entitlement and the collection of repricorical fees (Ireland claim the most back against the NHS followed by Spain) so it can be done, and the implementation of no insurance no continued treatment beside life saving, and then only at point of use (no kidney transplants because you kidney has packed up or you have just discovered you are riddled with cancer conveniently on your 3 day holiday from XYZ)

I understand visas now carry a surcharge to allow the use of the NHS (a mini insurance policy) but im sure the small levy probably equates to a few £ for the length of the visa and services used

[henry d]

12 hours ago, ph5172 said:

Department for health said the bill for 2015 - 2016 for EEC Nationals was 340 million with a maximum of 240million recoverable due to the current arrangements

that doesn’t include the rest of the world that is estimated at 114 million but upto 300 million if you include dentistry and gp care

the estimated cost of deliberate health tourism is between 100-280 million a year (a lot being those British nationals who live abroad permanently they travel back)

 

it’s apparently difficult to actually estimate due to some services being completely free (gp consultancy) and those arriving with ‘deliberate acute illness’ that report direct to casualty 

according to Channel 4 and  uk independent fact checking

Thanks for that, but the letter in the OP does not show that and I believe is just being used to create divisions and could even be covertly racist. Thank you GRRClark for putting things into perspective.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

20 hours ago, Retsdon said:

They sorted out my mate. Sixty nine or seventy years old, but hadn't lived in the UK for a long time. He got sick over here in Saudi but basically had nobody to take care of him when he was discharged  (his leg was stuffed and he couldn't get around) So he got a flight back to the UK where he had family, and while recuperating, he had a relapse. He went to the local hospital and when he told them that he was on sick leave from Saudi.they basically told him to p**** off  Literally put him out on the street. He flew back here again a couple of days later to get treatment but on the flight he lost blood circulation to his gammy leg. He was taken straight into hospital but there were complications and he died two days later. He'd paid into the UK system for the best part of 20 years, and was as English as could be but that made no difference. - legally a non-resident so no treatment. He was a good man. Had some great stories - told me once that when he was social secretary at Kings College in London back in '69 or whenever, he got censured by the NUS committee for booking unknown bands...the band in question being  a young Led Zeppelin!

My father worked for the NHS for 40 years and like my friend I also paid UK taxes as a single man for more than 20, but they'd treat me the same way. To hell with them.

If you paid for insurance and then stopped paying the premiums would you still expect to be covered?

If you did a weekly lottery and stopped paying in to the syndicate and then they had a win would you expect your share?

If you paid in to the "system" for 20 years then you were covered for those 20 years, not later after you had stopped paying in.

If your Mate jumped on a plane to take advantage of the NHS that he had stopped paying in to many years earlier is it any wonder he was not covered?

[Lord v]

On 27/01/2019 at 14:33, panoma1 said:

£200 for unlimited medical treatment seems good value for money to me.....could a U.K. Citizen opt out of paying the NHS part of the mandatory National Insurance contribution and pay the £200pa instead? 🤕

The answer has surely got to be, no foreign national enters the UK without adequate medical insurance, if they have an existing medical condition that they have not declared and their insurance company refuses to cover it, then why should the UK NHS? Illegals and those without insurance get emergency treatment only...........and deportation after!

 

It's not £200 for unlimited treatment. Its a £200 insurance policy. And the same rules regarding NHS dentists etc apply. 

Which is a terrible deal compared to the level of cover I get on the high street for extended travel abroad. 

[panoma1]

8 minutes ago, Lord v said:

It's not £200 for unlimited treatment. Its a £200 insurance policy. And the same rules regarding NHS dentists etc apply. 

Which is a terrible deal compared to the level of cover I get on the high street for extended travel abroad. 

Do you know who underwrites the policy? And what amount of monetary insurance cover does the £200 buy them?

 

[Lord v]

Just now, panoma1 said:

Do you know who underwrites the policy? And what amount of monetary insurance cover does the £200 buy them?

 

It's acts like an insurance policy....

😏

You can buy it if you want:

https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application

Don't worry, when my wife paid it she got pregnant and had a kid. 

So I got my moneys worth. 

😆

[panoma1]

So it's not an insurance policy? It's a government surcharge! And unless I have got it wrong? Once the applicant has paid, apart from a few exemptions, they get unlimited access to the NHS, so if someone that pays the surcharge needs medical treatment costing several thousand pounds, they get it! And the actual cost difference is paid by.......the U.K.Taxpayer?

I still feel no foreign national should be allowed into the UK without adequate health insurance, it would probably cost less than the Government surcharge.....but then again if this happened, the government would have to abandon the direct payment they receive, so I can't see it happening!

How much can you get a years holiday insurance from the high street?........if you have a pre existing condition, it could easily cost over a £100 per week? If you multiply that by 52 weeks in a year.........£5,200 per year....not bad deal, getting it for £200/300 per year surcharge eh?

Edited January 28, 2019 by panoma1

[Retsdon]

On 27/01/2019 at 17:33, panoma1 said:

...could a U.K. Citizen opt out of paying the NHS part of the mandatory National Insurance contribution and pay the £200pa instead? 🤕

The National Insurance contributions don't cover the NHS. I still pay NHS contributions but I wouldn't be allowed free treatment in the UK. I would need to be a current resident for tax purposes. Actually, if there were a scheme to pay into that covered NHS teatment, I'd happily contribute.

[panoma1]

 

3 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

The National Insurance contributions don't cover the NHS. I still pay NHS contributions but I wouldn't be allowed free treatment in the UK. I would need to be a current resident for tax purposes. Actually, if there were a scheme to pay into that covered NHS teatment, I'd happily contribute.

As I understand it, Income Tax and National Insurance are both taxes compulsorily paid by workers to the government (HMCR) from which the government (on our behalf) fund the NHS, pensions, education, welfare and other benefits? I was 'tongue in cheek' saying I would have saved money by opting out of the NHS element....if I got the same NHService for a one off contribution of £200 per year! Lol!

[Vince Green]

On ‎26‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 13:56, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I often wonder if all those who are wrongly waiting in A+E would be there if they had to pay a proportion of the cost, maybe £35 as a starting point.

That's what they do in Ireland and it works a treat at filtering out time wasters. A few years back when my son had quite a serious sports injury we spent several anxious hours waiting in A&E and very few people in the waiting area had any visible illness or injury. Nor for that matter any sigh of pain or discomfort, and you do find yourself wondering why they were there

[Lord v]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

So it's not an insurance policy? It's a government surcharge! And unless I have got it wrong? Once the applicant has paid, apart from a few exemptions, they get unlimited access to the NHS, so if someone that pays the surcharge needs medical treatment costing several thousand pounds, they get it! And the actual cost difference is paid by.......the U.K.Taxpayer?

I still feel no foreign national should be allowed into the UK without adequate health insurance, it would probably cost less than the Government surcharge.....but then again if this happened, the government would have to abandon the direct payment they receive, so I can't see it happening!

How much can you get a years holiday insurance from the high street?........if you have a pre existing condition, it could easily cost over a £100 per week? If you multiply that by 52 weeks in a year.........£5,200 per year....not bad deal, getting it for £200/300 per year surcharge eh?

So it works exactly the same way as an insurance policy... Because the majority that pay it never need it or use it. Oddly enough the vast majority of people coming into the country don't do it for free treatment *

I got a years cover for the US for £230. But that also covered travel, baggage, delays and a whole host of other expenses with about £50 excess. That was for up to £10m of medical. So yeah, £200 a year for just medical is not great. 

But you know, carry on pulling figures out of thin air it's far more fun. 

*I am also 90% sure it's not free all the time either. My FiL had a gall bladder attack a few years back when over here, he was charged full wack by the Gp he saw here plus full rate for the drugs he needed. He was able to claim the money back from his insurance, but had to pay upfront. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Lord v

[ph5172]

26 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

That's what they do in Ireland and it works a treat at filtering out time wasters. A few years back when my son had quite a serious sports injury we spent several anxious hours waiting in A&E and very few people in the waiting area had any visible illness or injury. Nor for that matter any sigh of pain or discomfort, and you do find yourself wondering why they were there

I see it a lot. My theory is if it has been like that for a few weeks or you have to ask the wait time as you ‘have things to do’ then it probably isn’t an emergency