Do mongrels exist anymore?

[walshie]

What's wrong with having a purebreed if that's what you want? We've had ridgebacks for many years and the breed suits us to a tee. Diluting that blood with something else wouldn't serve any purpose.

There's no "my dog's better than yours" involved - because it isn't. It's just what we want. 

[Lloyd90]

54 minutes ago, walshie said:

What's wrong with having a purebreed if that's what you want? We've had ridgebacks for many years and the breed suits us to a tee. Diluting that blood with something else wouldn't serve any purpose.

There's no "my dog's better than yours" involved - because it isn't. It's just what we want. 

Nothing, and nothing wrong with people having crosses as long as they know it... 

Seems to be a lot of people buying dogs etc, eg theres lots of people buying sprockers, then complaining that they aren't allowed to enter tests or trials. Or people shouting how they'd put their sprocker up against a pure bred dog any day... not sure what they're out to prove ... 

 

I just think it's madness when people are throwing together any two dogs they come by locally, no idea of heritage or working ability, then try and sell them for more than a well line bred pup from top working background.

Also see if often in ads "from top champion lines" and there's no trial lines for several generations. Shame on the breeders really. 

[bigbird]

2 hours ago, stumfelter said:

The definition of crossbreed.  Produce an animal or plant by hybridising or mating two different breeds, species or varieties. So I'd prefer to call them crossbreeds because generally the matings are planned, as an added bonus crossbreeds also benefit from hybrid vigour. If it makes people feel somehow superior because they own a "pedigree" dog my advice to them is crack on.

‘Hybrid vigour’ is oft a misunderstood term in this day and age of increased understanding of breed related health issues.... Particularly as many hereditary breed problems and the genetic predisposition spans many breeds and can be clear/carrier/affected regardless of the breeds put together.

Edited April 4, 2019 by bigbird

[Lloyd90]

3 hours ago, stumfelter said:

The definition of crossbreed.  Produce an animal or plant by hybridising or mating two different breeds, species or varieties. So I'd prefer to call them crossbreeds because generally the matings are planned, as an added bonus crossbreeds also benefit from hybrid vigour. If it makes people feel somehow superior because they own a "pedigree" dog my advice to them is crack on.

Having a pure bred dog doesn't make your dog any superior, just like having a cross bred dog / mongrel doesn't magically give it some sort of hybrid powers that don't exist in the pure bred dogs  ... that's just silly...

Wasn't "Hybrid vigour" something that would essentially be describing bring in some outside blood to lower the chance of hereditary disease or genetic conditions. 

 

Its funny if so because the opposite is surely now the case. a pure bred dog from health tested parents / decent lines can be traced and if you do your homework you can ENSURE that your dog will not have genetic conditions that are undesirable if you only buy from clear parents. 

 

As cross bred dog's don't have a pedigree and also less likely to have testing, the so called vigour these days is more likely to be experienced by health tested responsibly bred registered dogs. 

[Vince Green]

 I agree with Lloyd, The trouble with all these ridiculous prices is that it encourages unregulated puppy farming

[stumfelter]

18 hours ago, walshie said:

What's wrong with having a purebreed if that's what you want? We've had ridgebacks for many years and the breed suits us to a tee. Diluting that blood with something else wouldn't serve any purpose.

There's no "my dog's better than yours" involved - because it isn't. It's just what we want. 

I totally agree with you and that's why I said people that want a pedigree dog should just crack on with it, it's more the fact that people are using mongrel as a derogatory term to describe dogs that are the result of planned matings in exactly the same way as planned pedigree litters.

[welsh1]

3 hours ago, stumfelter said:

I totally agree with you and that's why I said people that want a pedigree dog should just crack on with it, it's more the fact that people are using mongrel as a derogatory term to describe dogs that are the result of planned matings in exactly the same way as planned pedigree litters.

People use the term mongrel because that is what they are , you can try to give them a posher name like cross breeds but they are simply mongrels.

I am not saying that there are no good dogs from these crossings because there obviously are, but because most are bred without records or any care of what genetic abnormalities they have it is more just luck you get a "good" dog.
As much as you can get the brains of one dog and the stamina of another, you can get the hip displacement of one and the heart problems of another.

Until you have a lineage that you can trace and know what you are dealing with then you will only get a mongrel that you hope will work out,this is how  established breeds come about, but it takes dedication and records, and a lot of these kitchen breeders are only interested in the big money they can make not keeping records and weeding out the abnormalities.  

[Lloyd90]

16 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

People use the term mongrel because that is what they are , you can try to give them a posher name like cross breeds but they are simply mongrels.

I am not saying that there are no good dogs from these crossings because there obviously are, but because most are bred without records or any care of what genetic abnormalities they have it is more just luck you get a "good" dog.
As much as you can get the brains of one dog and the stamina of another, you can get the hip displacement of one and the heart problems of another.

Until you have a lineage that you can trace and know what you are dealing with then you will only get a mongrel that you hope will work out,this is how  established breeds come about, but it takes dedication and records, and a lot of these kitchen breeders are only interested in the big money they can make not keeping records and weeding out the abnormalities.  

 

Exactly! How many of them are travelling miles and miles at personal expense to find the right match for their dogs? 

They're mostly just throwing any two dogs together that are in the nearby vicinity. 

[stumfelter]

Ok guys you win. If it makes you feel somehow superior to refer to planned crossbred dogs as mongrels then have fun, I'm done.....

[Dougy]

My experience has been the opposite, its the mongrel breed owners that are shouting the loudest, not the pure breed owners. A chap in the local was on about his poodlabcocker thingy, i quite simply asked if he was referring to the mongrel on the other end of the lead. 

I think we need to see what few more years down the line bring with these designer breeds. We only need to look at the vets programmes on TV to see the issues with the breeds from years ago. Difficulty breathing, overshot jaws, heads too small for eyes and brains to develope properly. etc, etc. 

[Walker570]

46 minutes ago, Dougy said:

My experience has been the opposite, its the mongrel breed owners that are shouting the loudest, not the pure breed owners. A chap in the local was on about his poodlabcocker thingy, i quite simply asked if he was referring to the mongrel on the other end of the lead. 

I think we need to see what few more years down the line bring with these designer breeds. We only need to look at the vets programmes on TV to see the issues with the breeds from years ago. Difficulty breathing, overshot jaws, heads too small for eyes and brains to develope properly. etc, etc. 

....and a lot of those complaints came from those breeding for showing...Kennel Club Members but we must also not forget the money grabbers who will breed unsuitable dogs for instance one far too old often resulting in a high chance of the dog having fits ..I know by experience having had two such dogs, both superb hunters but plagued with them suffering fits and it is a known fact in humans that breeding after a certain age can result in abnormalities.   Money Money Money I'm afraid.  Commonly known as GREED.  Take the back problems in alsatians because the judges gave higher rating to a sloping back in the show ring... I could go on but am sure you will get my drift.   

I have seen some superb mongrels, fit as fleas and live to a ripe old age.  

If your cooking then use the best ingredients.

 

 

[grrclark]

Far too many 'purebred' or single breed dogs have bucket loads of problems as people choose to breed on the basis of a pedigree with either show champion or field champion in the lineage and the gene pool becomes limited as a result, especially in breeds with smaller numbers, although the show dog circuit is certainly far more guilty of this than than working dogs.  Look at the German Shepherd as an example, that dog has been ruined by breeders chasing some bizarre breed standard.

Ultimately every dog that we consider to be a purebred dog was a planned cross breeding, or mongrel, at some point in it's lineage.

I have a goldie from working stock and my neighbour has one from show stock, they are in every practical sense a different breed, yet both are goldies.  Same goes for working labs versus the show style flabs.

I really don't get why people would pay daft money for a 'designer' dog breed, either new style cross/mongrel or a pure pedigree dog, but it's simple market forces of supply and demand.

I guess like everything else in life, be happy with what you choose to have and don't give a stuff about what other people think.

[scotslad]

13 hours ago, stumfelter said:

Ok guys you win. If it makes you feel somehow superior to refer to planned crossbred dogs as mongrels then have fun, I'm done.....

Sorry but u can't tell me that much planning goes into a mongeral litter other than wot stupid name there going to advertise the pups as to make the most money.

How many designer dog breeders will travel past the 1st poodle/stud dog

Will they even ask any questions about its health, breeding, temperament or intellegance before the mating

 

 

But to be fair many pure dog breeders are just as guilty of breeding there average/poor bitch with a top fashionable ftch dog without asking if it would really suit the bitch.

 

BB had it spot on it's crazy that designer dogs are going for more than proper well bred dogs, esp the more ft bred where breeders will watch dogs at trials to see wot dogs lines they like and often travel great distance for the right dog

 

Hybrid vigor only works in the 1st generation when u get into 2nd gen crosses their health tends to be worse.

U don't see many farmers keeping 2nd gen crosses for meat and will only keep pure bred bulls/tips for breeding with.

 

PS I've got 2 mongerals in my kennels both work well but not any better than the pure bred parents would.

 

Also while technically u could call all dogs mongerals, they now bred true as any pup/adult that wasn't up to standard was PTS  and the breeders had clear aims wot they expected off they're dog/breed

 

 

 

[Lloyd90]

As said people breeding “pure bred” dogs are just as bad. 

Just a few hours ago a man posting on a gundog group on FB - “My lab bitch just came into heat... looking for a stud dog within the **** area.” 

No thought prior to his bitch coming into heat otherwise he’d have a stud lined up... bitch come into heat and he’s just going to throw whichever dog is closest to his house over it. 

[grrclark]

4 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

As said people breeding “pure bred” dogs are just as bad. 

Just a few hours ago a man posting on a gundog group on FB - “My lab bitch just came into heat... looking for a stud dog within the **** area.” 

No thought prior to his bitch coming into heat otherwise he’d have a stud lined up... bitch come into heat and he’s just going to throw whichever dog is closest to his house over it. 

Yup, there is no shortage of breed specific adverts that are nothing other than a result of a kennel accident or a dug getting caught when out in the field.  No planning or consideration of behavioural characteristics or predisposition to health condition, etc.

If we bred for known characteristics of dam and sire we would have a motley looking range of mutts.  The guide dog association are one of the better examples where they breed on known characteristics, as a result very few if any of their labs, shepherds or goldies would conform to any breed standard, but they are very well suited to what they do.

[Lloyd90]

On 06/04/2019 at 22:52, grrclark said:

Yup, there is no shortage of breed specific adverts that are nothing other than a result of a kennel accident or a dug getting caught when out in the field.  No planning or consideration of behavioural characteristics or predisposition to health condition, etc.

If we bred for known characteristics of dam and sire we would have a motley looking range of mutts.  The guide dog association are one of the better examples where they breed on known characteristics, as a result very few if any of their labs, shepherds or goldies would conform to any breed standard, but they are very well suited to what they do.

 

I think they breed lab x golden and clearly produce good stuff for what they want them to do. 

 

I was at a working test today helping out and commented on someone’s young dog running in the novice, saying “he looks nice, how old?” Re a small golden cocker. 

I was met with the reply “he’s just gone 2, I haven’t done much training with him yet but he really is lovely’, he throws great pups as he’s sired 3 litters so far!” 

 

I was amazed! Why the hell are they breeding off stuff that’s barely just finished being a puppy, let alone having multiple litters. One of the judges said there’s no wonder there’s so much rubbish about. 

 

[scotslad]

On 14/04/2019 at 20:40, Lloyd90 said:

 

I think they breed lab x golden and clearly produce good stuff for what they want them to do. 

 

I was at a working test today helping out and commented on someone’s young dog running in the novice, saying “he looks nice, how old?” Re a small golden cocker. 

I was met with the reply “he’s just gone 2, I haven’t done much training with him yet but he really is lovely’, he throws great pups as he’s sired 3 litters so far!” 

 

I was amazed! Why the hell are they breeding off stuff that’s barely just finished being a puppy, let alone having multiple litters. One of the judges said there’s no wonder there’s so much rubbish about. 

 

 

Sums up a lot off exactly wot is wrong with modern breeding and even modern dog ownership

Can't be bothered to train the dog but happy to let it sire pups.

Also can't imagine letting a dog that young line bitches is going to help with steadiness training/working.

 

I would also bet zero health checks ( not that there is a lot for cockers) and far too young and lack of work for any ailments to show up.

 

I know a respected cocker breeder who has been breeding/trialling for 30 odd years and has pretty much gave up breeding as so much sh@t around and folk charging proper money for them.

 

The more I hear and see about modern folk owning/breeding dogs the more I see breeds going down the pan.

 

[Lloyd90]

On 17/04/2019 at 16:13, scotslad said:

 

Sums up a lot off exactly wot is wrong with modern breeding and even modern dog ownership

Can't be bothered to train the dog but happy to let it sire pups.

Also can't imagine letting a dog that young line bitches is going to help with steadiness training/working.

 

I would also bet zero health checks ( not that there is a lot for cockers) and far too young and lack of work for any ailments to show up.

 

I know a respected cocker breeder who has been breeding/trialling for 30 odd years and has pretty much gave up breeding as so much sh@t around and folk charging proper money for them.

 

The more I hear and see about modern folk owning/breeding dogs the more I see breeds going down the pan.

 

 

 

 

Was the main reason I ended up with a trial bred dog. It was CHEAPER than buying a pup off two half trained pets and I knew the parents could work their socks off  

One of the lads has bred two top working dogs together recently, both award winners - £650 a pup. 

 

Another Bloke bred his done nothing bitch to some dog nearby - £850 a pup and reckons they’re all sold, and onto breeding his other dogs straight away as well. 

 

Buyer beware.