Brexit - merged threads

[Vince Green]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

Technically, the Brexit referendum is an advisory referendum: even if Parliament had agreed to be bound by the result of that vote, one of the fundamental characteristics of a parliamentary body is that any decision a parliamentary body makes, it can subsequently unmake. Thus, even if Parliament had agreed to be bound by the referendum (which it did not), Parliament could still, in its considered opinion, receive the result of the referendum and move not to accept the results but to instead strike the language in which it previously agreed to accept the result. This is because Parliament has what is called “parliamentary sovereignty”: Parliament, and only Parliament (in this case referring to the legal construction sometimes called “King in Parliament”, the combination of the Monarch and the two Houses of Parliament all acting in agreement) has the final authority to determine, without any limitation whatsoever, what the law of the United Kingdom is.

dream on! Let them eat cake? 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Vince Green

[pinfireman]

9 hours ago, oowee said:

Some Tories have a conflict since their constituency voted to stay and MP is pushing his own (JRM) bizarre far right agenda. The distant runner up here is Lib Dem.

Far right? What rubbish, you really are losing it........... Far right is the EDL, or BNP.

9 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Actually not always so ....... because the real traditional old Labour voter follows his father and grandfather ..... and will expect his children to follow him.

 

Most of the Parliamentary party doesn't want it and have tried to replace Corbyn before, but he is not (mainly) elected by them.  The wider party is heavily infiltrated by Momentum/hard left groups who bully the actual working Labour voter/local party people and oust them if they don't tow the Momentum line

 

Being in Government is difficult; people expect you to do what you promised, get things right, do things well, and not make mistakes.  In opposition, these matter little if at all.

In government - there are loads of issues you can't afford to 'get right' as you have to act within budget (not a Labour strength anyway) and have a huge slow cumbersome civil service opposing any changes as well as the formal opposition.  You also get jusdged by what you achieve - which is inevitably slow, and will have mistakes and compromises.  None of thes eapply in opposition - which is a 'doddle' by comparison.  It is also much easier to 'attack' policies than defend them.

Also Tory MPs are (at least most are) people experience in business or the law in some way.  Quite a number of Labour members are either Union officials or 'never worked' status (like Corbyn).  Few have held reasonably senior positions in an organisation (though some have been lawyers).

I cannot see JRM being deselected/turfed out at the next election - whereas I can see Soubery, Grieve, Bowles being out.

Grieve has a very large majority, sadly.

I,ll bet any money that Mogg gets a very good majority at the next GE.

[oowee]

6 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

So tell me, what was the point of the referendum if the result is going to be ignored as appears to be the case? 

The question for me is what was the point of having the referendum on such a subject. Better for a party to stand on a Brexit ticket. Maybe we are a step closer to that now. 

10 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Far right? What rubbish, you really are losing it........... Far right is the EDL, or BNP.

 

Not if you are the EDL or BNP. 

Extreme all depends where you stand. Mogg has an extreme view of brexit compared to most. One reason why the ERG is a minority in the house. 

[silver pigeon69]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

The question for me is what was the point of having the referendum on such a subject. Better for a party to stand on a Brexit ticket. Maybe we are a step closer to that now. 

Not if you are the EDL or BNP. 

Extreme all depends where you stand. Mogg has an extreme view of brexit compared to most. One reason why the ERG is a minority in the house. 

You keep trying to back peddle and keep quoting "extreme view of Brexit". In you original post you said he was extreme RIGHT!

[12gauge82]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

The question for me is what was the point of having the referendum on such a subject. Better for a party to stand on a Brexit ticket. Maybe we are a step closer to that now. 

 

But its too late, the referendum was held, leave won and they need to action it, but they won't, can't you see it makes a mockery of our supposed democratic country, which is the very fibre our the UK is supposedly made of. We had the biggest vote in history and were lied to by the prime minister and government, put aside for a moment that I believe brexit would be great for the country and you believe it would be catastrophic, just how are they going to square that circle? 

Edited March 14, 2019 by 12gauge82

[silver pigeon69]

8 hours ago, oowee said:

Leave yes. At any cost no. The JRM extremist right wing out of everything, no deal is a good thing fu my constituents I know better is of course his perogative as (we now all know) parliament is sovereign. Fortunately a more moderate voice in parliament is slowly slowly being heard. Those for a more progressive vision of Britain may yet have some light at the end of the tunnel. 

Here it is!

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by silver pigeon69

[oowee]

6 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

But its too late, the referendum was held, leave won and they need to action it, but they won't, can't you see it makes a mockery of our supposed democratic country, which is the very fibre our the UK is supposedly made of. We had the biggest vote in history and were lied to by the prime minister and government, put aside for a moment that I believe brexit would be great for the country and you believe it would be catastrophic, just how are they going to square that circle? 

I don't think it will be catastrophic. I think we will be worse off than we would otherwise be and the future is about integration not isolation.

If we are to avoid a no deal, there will have to be some meeting of minds to square the circle.  

[12gauge82]

Just now, oowee said:

I don't think it will be catastrophic. I think we will be worse off than we would otherwise be and the future is about integration not isolation.

If we are to avoid a no deal, there will have to be some meeting of minds to square the circle.  

I'm not talking about whether brexit will damage the country economicly or not, I'm talking about ignoring the result of the largest democratic vote this country has ever held and the fact the government lied when it said it would enact the result whatever outcome that was voted for? 

[Vince Green]

12 minutes ago, oowee said:

The question for me is what was the point of having the referendum on such a subject. Better for a party to stand on a Brexit ticket. Maybe we are a step closer to that now. 

Not if you are the EDL or BNP. 

Extreme all depends where you stand. Mogg has an extreme view of brexit compared to most. One reason why the ERG is a minority in the house. 

 

1 minute ago, oowee said:

I don't think it will be catastrophic. I think we will be worse off than we would otherwise be and the future is about integration not isolation.

If we are to avoid a no deal, there will have to be some meeting of minds to square the circle.  

Once Britain is free from the shackles of the EU the British economy will fly . That's not me saying that its the Wall St Journal. I would rather listen to them, JRM is a very shrewd fund manager, I would take his opinion seriously. That's not extreme its what the smart money is saying. The FTSE is at a record high, foreign investment is already pouring in.

How is that catastrophic?

[Newbie to this]

17 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

How is that catastrophic?

Because it is not what they wanted.

I can only assume some remainers have a personal vested interest.

It's catastrophic for them personally is all I can take from such statements.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Newbie to this

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

 

Once Britain is free from the shackles of the EU the British economy will fly . That's not me saying that its the Wall St Journal. I would rather listen to them, JRM is a very shrewd fund manager, I would take his opinion seriously. That's not extreme its what the smart money is saying. The FTSE is at a record high, foreign investment is already pouring in.

How is that catastrophic?

How? By reducing living standards so that we are more competitive. By increasing automation. By reducing safety standards. By reducing environmental standards. Is this what you want? 

JRM said we should take Argentinian Beef it's cheap. We could but this would be the end of UK beef industry. The rich will thrive when the poor get poorer.

I have spent my life working on foreign investment. My last job was Nissan cars. Foreign investment is not flying in. Most of the people that were working on it have for the last two years been moved over to trade. 

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

Because it is not what they wanted.

I can only assume remainers have a personal vested interest.

It's catastrophic for them personally is all I can take from such statements.

All residents of the UK have a personal vested interest in this country. 🙄

[Mice!]

27 minutes ago, oowee said:

I don't think it will be catastrophic. I think we will be worse off than we would otherwise be and the future is about integration not isolation.

If we are to avoid a no deal, there will have to be some meeting of minds to square the circle.  

I still dont think we'll be worse off, thinking in business terms if a section or branch of a company is failing do you keep pumping money in so the whole company suffers or cut the failing section loose?

Europe is failing and we are not, i hope things are different afterwards if this mess ever gets sorted out.

Still can't see how we will be worse off.

[oowee]

This is why I think we will be worse off. 

the UK is not very competitive due to high labour costs and standards. The UK as part of the EU is able to say to more competitive countries you must meet our standards and pay tariffs to sell to us. These standards and tariffs protect our standard of living. On its own the UK is less able to demand such standards and prices as we are a smaller market place on our own than as part of the EU.

The UK can become more competitive by reducing costs by reducing standards, wage rates or automation.

The UK's most profitable trade is in services. Services are easier to sell as part of a developed and integrated market place. 

The EU is a big market on our door step that we will want to sell to.We say we want a trade deal with other countries so we will want a trade deal with the EU. We will have to meet EU standards to sell on equal terms and maybe pay for the privilege. Each market that we sell too will want to bargain with us. The larger ones will have the muscle to push for a better price. This will be standards and in some cases visa's.

The world is getting more and more integrated to the point where it is almost impossible to tell what you are buying from where. The speed of sales and the complexity of global business is ever increasing. Integration of people and politics is an inevitable logic of this process.

The world is a place of finite resources including the environment. As resources get tighter more cooperation will be required. The larger the trading group the greater the voice in the negotiation. 

There are many other areas of science and innovation, drug testing and development, university exchange and the protection of IP, and the knowledge economy that make borders virtual or otherwise a hang up to the past. 

[Mice!]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

the UK is not very competitive due to high labour costs and standards. The UK as part of the EU is able to say to more competitive countries you must meet our standards and pay tariffs to sell to us. These standards and tariffs protect our standard of living. On its own the UK is less able to demand such standards and prices as we are a smaller market place on our own than as part of the EU.

You are joking surely? Were not competitive due to high labour costs?? Some industries will command high wages, that's what you pay for highly skilled work such as aerospace, we are good at what we do which is why we manufacture the high cost parts, if they could be made cheaply in India then they would be.

As for standards ours are probably higher than anybody else in Europe, we lead the way, why should we except poor work? Look at how much cheap stuff comes in from the middle east, fine if its a torch or telly if it breaks you bin it a buy another. If its a plane or formula one car its a lot more serious. Yes these are specialist industries. A lot of more normal day to day businesses will simple carry on as normal.

you mention that services is our most profitable industry, that won't change, if we're already doing it and good at it its not going to stop.

Yes the EU is a big customer but there still going to want to buy from us, why wouldn't they?

 

[SpringDon]

21 minutes ago, oowee said:

This is why I think we will be worse off. 

<snip>

Interesting - all that is exactly the reason I think we will be better off.

The uk is not competitive in part due to the extra layer of nonproductive bureaucrats each tax payer supports. The tariffs are rolled up into the payments each country makes to fund the eu.

Developed eu nations are becoming less competitive and consequently the eu expands eastward to export it’s inflation to the less developed nations. This is not a long term solution.

The world is becoming more integrated so geographical proximity becomes irrelevant. Integration and globalisation do not benefit the tax payer in the long term. 

A smaller single marketplace provides agility and flexibility that of collection of 27 cannot possibly match.

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, Mice! said:

You are joking surely? Were not competitive due to high labour costs?? Some industries will command high wages, that's what you pay for highly skilled work such as aerospace, we are good at what we do which is why we manufacture the high cost parts, if they could be made cheaply in India then they would be.

As for standards ours are probably higher than anybody else in Europe, we lead the way, why should we except poor work? Look at how much cheap stuff comes in from the middle east, fine if its a torch or telly if it breaks you bin it a buy another. If its a plane or formula one car its a lot more serious. Yes these are specialist industries. A lot of more normal day to day businesses will simple carry on as normal.

you mention that services is our most profitable industry, that won't change, if we're already doing it and good at it its not going to stop.

Yes the EU is a big customer but there still going to want to buy from us, why wouldn't they?

 

Niche high value products yes we are a leader but it's not a large part of the economy and they are often produced in a collaboration at a EU / Global level. The low cost economies are knocking at the door of these niche high value products and over time will be making more and more of the components. They work for lower salaries and have lower standards of living. We will have to compete with more knowledge more skill or lower our costs. 

We will reduce standards in exchange for trade.

Services can be sold wherever whenever but as part of an integrated economy we will sell more. Evidence the company moves to the EU over the last two years. 

Yes we will still sell to the EU and still meet the standards that they set to d so. We wont be writing or setting the standards. Same for the US. 

2 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

Interesting - all that is exactly the reason I think we will be better off.

The uk is not competitive in part due to the extra layer of nonproductive bureaucrats each tax payer supports. The tariffs are rolled up into the payments each country makes to fund the eu.

Developed eu nations are becoming less competitive and consequently the eu expands eastward to export it’s inflation to the less developed nations. This is not a long term solution.

The world is becoming more integrated so geographical proximity becomes irrelevant. Integration and globalisation do not benefit the tax payer in the long term. 

A smaller single marketplace provides agility and flexibility that of collection of 27 cannot possibly match.

OK. 

The red is an observation but how does that make the UK better off?

The world is becoming more integrated at just the point the UK wants to break off.

I would agree we would be more agile. How does that translate into more profit for the UK? 

 

[pinfireman]

10 hours ago, oowee said:

Leave yes. At any cost no. The JRM extremist right wing out of everything, no deal is a good thing fu my constituents I know better is of course his perogative as (we now all know) parliament is sovereign. Fortunately a more moderate voice in parliament is slowly slowly being heard. Those for a more progressive vision of Britain may yet have some light at the end of the tunnel. 

They could not find light at the end of the tunnel......they haven,t found the tunnel yet! Progressive? You mean shackled to the EU !

10 hours ago, Rewulf said:

In a page weve gone from Moggy being 'far' right wing to 'extreme' right wing ?
Now in my book were talking hitler worshipping nazi militants here.
Again , can you justify where he gets this sort of label? 

Hes a Brexiter yes?, So is more than half the country, are we all nazis ??

In oowees mind.....

[pinfireman]

10 hours ago, oowee said:

Who mentioned Nazi's ? Extreme is the most remote in any direction and in the context of Brexit JRM is the most remote view of the subject. 

Exactly extreme depends where you stand. 

 

and you are standing to the Far Left?

8 hours ago, henry d said:

Tangent-ish; has anyone gone back to the start of the thread and looked at their statements and assertions to see how accurate they are?

or changed their minds about how they voted?  I doubt any of them have..............

[Mice!]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

Niche high value products yes we are a leader but it's not a large part of the economy and they are often produced in a collaboration at a EU / Global level. The low cost economies are knocking at the door of these niche high value products and over time will be making more and more of the components. They work for lower salaries and have lower standards of living. We will have to compete with more knowledge more skill or lower our costs. 

Yes there niche, but where else are these high labour costs? Higher than poorer countries yes but you can't get your boiler fixed or car by sending it where its cheaper, a spark will be local same as a builder, all these jobs will carry on as before.

looking at the car manufacturing jobs that are going i imagine there high labour cost jobs, but these jobs are going because of changes that are nothing to do with brexit, entire lines making mini and nissans that aren't selling.

[pinfireman]

7 hours ago, Blackstone said:

Of course we can do this. I can also drive off a cliff. It'll be catastrophic sure, but I can do it.

What are the economic reasons to support a no-deal Brexit. Where are these countries lining up to do trade deals with us that we were promised by Vote Leave? 

You are merely going down the same road that Osborne & Co took in the lead up to the Referendum......Project Fear! It proved to be absolute rubbish!

[SpringDon]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

<snip>

The red is an observation but how does that make the UK better off?

The world is becoming more integrated at just the point the UK wants to break off.

I would agree we would be more agile. How does that translate into more profit for the UK? 

 

I wasn’t actually suggesting leaving the world, just leaving the eu. 

I would say the uk becomes instantly better off due to losing the overheads of membership and the protectionism of a bloc that still only accounts for half our trade (less if you accept the Rotterdam effect). 

 Agility would help in market selection, bearing in mind the trade deficits we run, any reduction in deficit would go straight onto profit (or reducing the loss depending on your point of view)

[pinfireman]

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Heres one 😃 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-brexit-trade-deal-us-uk-farage-twitter-theresa-may-vote-a8822566.html?fbclid=IwAR2Lh6er7Qg0bo8l70Sm7hKGwZlCYOwYN0EwkLPOaEFJXziDooxbYk4JoVw

and others will quickly follow!

[Mice!]

3 minutes ago, motty said:

Didn't mean to quote you. I don't know what has happened...

I have had to stop reading and contributing to this thread, because I am so angry with the current state of affairs. I simply can't stand smug idiots such as oowee.

Ha ha, I don't see oowee as being smug he just has a different opinion, has to stuck to it throughout and works in a different area to many of us, services I'm guessing from what he's said before.

 

[pinfireman]

7 hours ago, Blackstone said:

Trump says many things and contradicts himself on a daily basis. You forget the 20 congressmen who threatened us with no trade deal if the Good Friday Agreement was damaged by Brexit (which a no deal situation would). You forget US lobbyists demanding our food and drugs standards be lowered to the level of US standards. They want the NHS to relax its drug approval system so that we will have to pay more for medicines from the US. You think we are in any position of strength when negotiating with the US? Do you really think Trump is a good faith actor? The man who is waging a trade war against one of America's closest allies Canada?

At least Trump kick-started the US economy, which is more than Obama did! As for food standards,  it,s hogwash! Scare tactics! 

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Would that be a 'catastrophic cliff edge Brexit' plunging into the 'abyss' ? 😄

Sometimes we dont get what we want, sometimes its because we cant be bothered to get up off our backsides and so something about it.
Sometimes its because we dont 'feel' strongly enough about it.
But this time we put up with all the taunt and threats, got up off the sofa, and voted for what we wanted, like John here..

Hes a politician, of course he does, but he won , against the odds , and he supports Brexit, so he will do for me .

 

Oooh a whole 20 , couldnt they afford to pay any more of them to say that ?🤣

 

What do you mean demanding ?
Demanding with what leverage? Do lobbyists make trade agreements, run government, decide policy ?
I think youre one or two soundbites short of a factual argument mate .

Correct! 

7 hours ago, Blackstone said:

Uhh, the whole point of lobbyists is to influence government policy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying

Rewulf do you mind telling me your current life situation - do you work, or are you retired? If you do work, in what sector? I am genuinely curious as to whether or not you're worried at all about the economic impact of a no deal Brexit.

lobbvists TRY to influence policy, they do not MAKE IT!

7 hours ago, Blackstone said:

Sure, I work in a small life sciences company in Northern Ireland. I have a MEng from the University of Cambridge. We do a significant (40%) amount of trade with the EU. We have little idea of what tariffs will be imposed on our goods in the event of a no-deal Brexit. We have however already lost two major European customers as a result of Brexit. The weakening of the Pound has also severely impacted our margins as we import a lot of raw materials. I genuinely fear for the future of the company, especially if tariffs mean we simply can't compete.

Unlike you, I'm not asking because I want to judge somebody's intelligence.

So you are tied to the EU, and that makes you want to tie us to it? Go out and find new customers, it,s a big wide world out there!

[pinfireman]

7 hours ago, Blackstone said:

The pound is on the up because no deal was rejected by Parliament last night. I expect it will go up some more if and when Parliament passes the motion to extend Article 50 tonight. The pound goes up when the prospect of no deal goes down. It goes up even more when the prospect of Brexit itself goes down. This has been the case the whole time. Remember what happened when the referendum result was announced? The markets hate Brexit, it's simple as that.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand and support many of the arguments for Brexit, particularly issues of sovereignty and control over borders. I regularly shoot in Switzerland, and seeing them bending over and aligning closer to EU regulations every day frustrates me too.

The pound climbed 3 days ago....

7 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Actually, having lived in the US I would say their food and drug standards are way higher than ours,  not always aligned admittedly 

A lot of truth in that!

6 hours ago, Blackstone said:

Does that mean you feel you're sufficiently insulated against the damage to the economy? Or do you genuinely accept that you could be affected and think it's a price worth paying yourself?

Hard to put a price on Freedom.